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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 3:51:52 PM   
velvetears


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Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		i never blamed you for anything - just corrected you in that it wasn't a huge misleading error to anyone really except you.  And i did respond to you and cleared it up, if i didn't want to i wouldn't, simple as that... i don't need your permission

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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 3:54:17 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Just to be a smartass....

.............we usually barbeque AT our picnics!




You're making me hungry .... if your a city person who relocates to suburbia you picnic in your backyard too lol....



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Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 4:09:19 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

I'm all confuzzled. Wanna go to Wendys with me?  Nice day for a Frosty..


I'll take you and Katy, it's on me.
 
But if I see some naked ass UM, I'm pouring the Frosty on his mama's head......

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 4:11:56 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Aswad, well those ums did not consent nor were they even near the age of consent.


Your original post seemed to deal with rearing, which generally doesn't require it.
This post has clarified that it was not simply a case of rearing.
Hence, a different conclusion, of course, is in order.

Had it just been about rearing, it would just be a parenting debate, which would be different.

quote:

You and i are on a completely different page where um's being exposd to the lifestle are concerned,


Different paragraphs, certainly. Pages? Possibly. We're definitely in the same book, though.

quote:

i found allowing them to hear talk about masters and slaves, what their parents do in the bedroom, how they structured their relationship, being witness to the mother being flogged,caned, etc to be detrimental to those um's in a big way.


There are definite issues with it. Particularly the bit about witnessing it.
What level of exposure is "acceptable" to me would depend on their age.
Mostly it comes down to social friction when the kids talk to their peers and other adults.

But involving them directly, which witnessing those things would border on, is unacceptable.

quote:

i found it repugnent and child abuse.


I'd have some concerns, for sure.
And I'd definitely talk it over with the parents.
With no UMs present for the duration of that talk, of course.
I think saying "child abuse" might be taking it a bit too far, however.
Especially since I know too many people who have experienced that. It's not the same.

"Repugnant" is a different matter.

I would definitely not be comfortable with that situation.

But there are other, similar situations, that might cause the same response, that shouldn't (IMO).

quote:

i differ from you in my pov about um's and consent.


I doubt that.
Or, at least, I don't think we're that far apart on it.
I assume you did not mean to imply that I thought UMs could consent, or should participate?
(The bit on the other side pretty much clarified it, but it might be nice to have it "on record", too.)


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 244
RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 4:14:03 PM   
cjenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

I'm all confuzzled. Wanna go to Wendys with me?  Nice day for a Frosty..


I'll take you and Katy, it's on me.
 
But if I see some naked ass UM, I'm pouring the Frosty on his mama's head......


Just don't dump 'my' Frosty!
MmmMMmmM Frostyyyyyy.

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*Unless I cite a source it is MO.


~ ssssh. i think i've just found freedom. ~

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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 4:33:16 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Even "regular" rape isn't that invasive. And usually not nearly as self-righteous.


i really hope i have misunderstood you here - can you please explain what you meant here?


What I meant is that some people on this thread have advocated intervention in consensual relations.
Doing so means making choices about other people's sexuality and relationship.
It denies them the right to choose who to relate to, and how.
It makes the choice for them.

That isn't strictly rape, hence the qualifier "regular" to contrast the regular (strict) sense against this one.
But it is still overstepping many of the same bounds, conceptually.
Personal space. Freedom of choice. Those things.

And it can be just as violating.

quote:

Exactly define informed consent?


If you define "exactly".
I've given some definitions in the past.
The simplest may be to go for the legal and medical term.

Very briefly, and not so exactly, you have informed consent to something when a mentally competent person is in a rational state of mind and agrees to something while comprehending the implications and consequences of it without being unduly influenced. Undue influence would include coercion, sleep deprivation, drugs, gross hormonal disturbances, relevant mental illness, and so forth; whatever makes a reasonably objective assessment of the alternatives doubtful.

quote:

You don't think any sub or slave is ever cohersed, manipulated, brainwashed in anyway to do some of the things their "Master" request of them, then later become traumatized over what they were involved in?


Of course. It's called "life", or "being human", or "the human condition", depending on who you ask.
Whatever you call it, just remember it applies equally to any influence, including an intervention.
To avoid this problem for me, I obtain informed consent prior to what I do.
Then I know what I can and cannot do, and don't need to guess.
When there's no guessing, there's no accidental pushing.

And I just don't do intentional pushing.

quote:

Just as long as he says he wants xyz and she says yes i agree to xyz all is kosher?  i just don't think it's that simplistic.


Me neither.

The extent to which people can have their freedom can be argued endlessly.
For me, if I do something, I try to keep it where it won't offend anyone.
And I try to have the informed consent in writing.

The latter because of legal concerns; informed consent is binding over here.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to velvetears)
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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 4:42:48 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I would just like to say that I feel very strongly that UM's should not be included in lifestyle events. [...] and that it is not the time or place for fetish wear, play or discussions of lifestyle matters.


What's wrong about fetish-wear?
If it's suitable for public use, that is...
A parade can wear it, so why not us?

And "discussions" would kind of depend on what you mean by "discussions" and the ages involved.
If they are old enough to get it, but the discussion is very superficial, that's like any other couple.
If the ages are too young to "get it" or even pay attention, who cares?

Basically, if it would be okay for a vanilla to do it, why should it be wrong for us?

We're not lepers, after all.

quote:

I would not participate in an event that included UMs and did not have clear boundaries established before hand.


Define "event".
If it's an event when I meet a buddy of mine for a glass of cider, I disagree.
If it's only an event when people get all worked up with each other, I agree.
Somewhere in between those two lies the balance.
If you define "event", I could comment.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 4:44:12 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I have to disagree here because rape sometimes does exactly all or some of those things.


Not quite as directly.
There's a complex response involved.
I've covered that bit elsewhere, but can repeat it if necessary.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 4:50:07 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

You say it's not illegal to talk about sex around kids - i challenge that and would say it probably is very much so illegal, depending of course on how it was presented


Depends on your local legislation. Around here, you'd have to be cybering them for it to be illegal.
"Frowned upon" is a different matter, though.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 5:06:31 PM   
KatyLied


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quote:

I'll take you and Katy, it's on me.


YAY, even if cjenny is along, can I call it a date?  It's been ages since I've been on a date.......you big spender.  hehe


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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 5:07:55 PM   
cjenny


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Status: offline 		 'even if'?
Jeez.

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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 5:09:39 PM   
KatyLied


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Status: offline 		No, it's not negative, I mean if there are 3 instead of 2, can we still call it a date!!

You get one: 


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- Albert Einstein

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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 5:15:59 PM   
Aileen68


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Status: offline 		I'm sure Level would call it something else.  A french phrase comes to mind.

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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 5:17:31 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
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Status: offline 		Thank you Aswad for your considerate and thoughtful response to my rather protective of um's emotional post to you.  Where they are concerned i would always rather err on the side of caution rather then see any kind of physical or emotional damage done to them. It definately was unacceptable, legally abusive behavior, i would have to do some research or ask around some people i know.  i dont see how it wouldn't be considered child abuse when kids have been taken away from parents (here in the US) for them simply posessing a picture of said child in the tub - you know the cutsey pictures a lot of people take for no other reason then a fond memory of bath time being construed as something completely different.  And other very off the wall cases of children being removed from homes on the grounds that there wasn't enough food in the fridge and the house was not clean.  i can't see these same zealous social workers walking into a bdsm home and saying - nothing wrong here, carry on with the floggings lol?  Just doesn't add up to me. 

No i don't think we are "that far apart" either.  i didn't mean at all to imply that you thought um's could consent or participate, i apologize if it came across that way.  i know you have more integrity than that. 

What i am having a general hard time understanding is what appears to me a consensus that it's alright to raise your kids in any fashion you want and that it's no ones business but the parents in how the kids are raised.  i can understand this on many levels - for instance a KKK mother and father will teach their children to be racist and hate, this will not be grounds for abuse by the law, although many, i would hope anyway, would find that unacceptable and wrong, mostly sad though.  Maybe where i am seeing "abuse" and others not is in the fact that i associate bdsm with sex.  i can certainly see a home where there is open D/s in the form of dads the boss kind of thing as more a way of life and acceptable if thats how they want to raise their kids, that i can accept, but whips, floggers, leashes, collars etc in front of 10 and 12 yr olds - i just can't accept that. 

i am rambling lol....

Thanks for explaining that statement Even "regular" rape isn't that invasive. And usually not nearly as self-righteous.
You were using it as a metaphor as to what is happening to people when others try to intervene in what they do consentually with others. 

i had an idea about informed consent, because i am not sure if someone who hasn't experienced someting can really give informed consent.  Unless you experience something you won't know how you will respond or react to it.  i can read about something, watch others do tht activity, have it explained to me, but untill i actually experience it for myself and have all my senses assaulted by it - how will i really know anything at all about it??  Unless all it means is you are of sound mind to give something a try and you understand what it is you are even willing to try and thats it. 

You mentioned you would want it in writing and how it is binding over where you live - that would scare me because what if i said yes i give consent and i was analysed as having sound mind, not being cohersed, or on drugs, or have any chemical imbalance etc but then experienced things i thoguht i could handle, when in reality i couldn't.  Maybe i am just thinking too much in the extreme, but i tend to take things seriously, especially those i committ to.  Hope i made sense.  Thanks and hope you're feeling better
 

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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 5:21:03 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

OK.....Let's stop the madness.....This is where I think this conversation got off track


Yes, please.

quote:


And yet when pushed...All we end up with is a thread that I believe relates to something about daddysprop.


Yeah, she has voluntarily declared herself legally incompetent with her Master as legal guardian.
That's not all that uncommon in M/s relationships; it's just a convenient slip of paper.
Doing such a thing takes it one step closer to "absolute" M/s, which some want.
I've helped people work out the details of such arrangements.

From what I read, we are in no way, shape or form talking about mental incompetence.
That's just a slip-up from daddysprop, and a common one at that.
Few know the difference between "legally" and "mentally".

It's legally iffy, since a legal guardian is usually mandated to have a certain kind of relationship to their charge, and many legislations prohibit sexual contact and so forth. On the other hand, there are provisions for (e.g.) married couples to remain couples while one party becomes the legal guardian of the other, and those would probably apply.

Further, a declaration of legal incompetence, particularly a voluntary one, should ideally be accompanied by one or more Advance Directives that deal with how the person in question would like to be treated in their relationship, as determined in a rational frame of mind and attested by a mental health professional.

Initiating a relationship with a mentally incompetent person is ethically iffy.
Doing so with a legally incompetent, mentally competent person isn't.
It's just the same as how some people use marriage to get legal rights.
A Master or Mistress in a TPE relationship should have the legal right to act on behalf of the slave, IMO.

quote:


I think most of you have slightly lost touch with the reality of all that is included in wiitwd.....I have learned much more about this thang since joining CM... [...] Although some of this isn't my thang...I'm not calling the cops.


That's kind of the point of the discussion.
Some have forwarded that intervention in WIITWD is okay.
Some have confused WIITWD with non-consensual activities, which is scary.
Some have tried to pin down something useful in the confused mess that has come of it.

IMO:
WIITWD is ethical, and there is some mutual obligation to "live and let live", aka YKIMNK.
Intervening in WIITWD is, unethical, and so far an entirely unsupported argument.
Non-consensual activites are unethical, and intervening in those is ethical.

And ethics take precedence over law, IMO.
Especially since WIITWD is outside the law in some jurisdictions.

quote:

I'm not going to change anyone's opinion online...


You'd be surprised. Sometimes, my opinion changes. Other times, others' opinion changes.
Most of the time when an opinion changes, it is because it wasn't thought through.
Usually, there's an angle someone forgot to see, or some fundamental confusion.

Humor can be a good way to get a point across without aggravating people.
Though some will still respond to humor with a block, unfortunately.
Been there, done that.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 255
RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 5:25:50 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

This morning, around 9 am, I went to the corner neighborhood market… small deli mart, mini mart, etc.  I know the owner and all of the folks that work there.  The morning shift is covered by a small wisp of a woman who is painfully shy; however, I’ve been going to this market for several years so she knew me.  Anyway, I was at the cash machine in the store when in ‘walked’ (I use that term very loosely here) two men in their mid 30s… both extraordinarily drunk (remember this was at 9 a.m. this morning).  One was much more drunk than the other… The clerk saw them and I saw the look of panic cross her face… I very quietly told her that I would stay.  Two young women somewhere between the ages of 13 and 15 were standing toward the front of the store.  The drunk guys had picked up another half rack of beer and came up front.  The drunker guy put his hand on the shoulder of one of the girls and she brushed it off.  He did it a 2nd time and again she brushed his hand away.  I immediately got in this guys face and said “she does not want you to touch her”.  I then looked at her and asked her if she knew him…. Sadly, he was her father.   She was clearly embarrassed, yet both she and the other girl thank me.  The less drunk guy was becoming belligerent with me for getting in their business.  They walked out and I followed and the less drunk guy got in behind the wheel of the car with the two girls in back.  I asked him if he was ok to drive… (of course he was not).  I got into my car fully intending on getting this guy’s license plate and dialing 911.  Unfortunately, for whatever reason as soon as I got the license plate number… I promptly forgot the first three numbers so I followed them at quite a distance to make sure they got home with those girls ok.  To make a long story a bit shorter… this has bothered me all day.    Should I have just accepted these drunks behavior and minded my own business?  After all, they were clearly of age to drink…

We ‘see’ things here daily.  Some, in my opinion are truly horrific, but if anyone stands against those things and speaks out, without fail there will be many others telling us it is none of our business, that as long as it is consentual it should be accepted.    My question is this…. Is there anything in WIITWD that the general population think wrong?  Or do we just accept everything?  If we do accept everything is it because the only information we have is through this screen and not something seen in r/l or because it is not our mom, sister or daughter affected?

Really sorry this is so long.


(This is way the fuck too much for me).

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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 5:30:07 PM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Yeah, she has voluntarily declared herself legally incompetent with her Master as legal guardian.
That's not all that uncommon in M/s relationships; it's just a convenient slip of paper.
Doing such a thing takes it one step closer to "absolute" M/s, which some want.
I've helped people work out the details of such arrangements.
From what I read, we are in no way, shape or form talking about mental incompetence.
That's just a slip-up from daddysprop, and a common one at that.
Few know the difference between "legally" and "mentally".
It's legally iffy, since a legal guardian is usually mandated to have a certain kind of relationship to their charge, and many legislations prohibit sexual contact and so forth. On the other hand, there are provisions for (e.g.) married couples to remain couples while one party becomes the legal guardian of the other, and those would probably apply.
Further, a declaration of legal incompetence, particularly a voluntary one, should ideally be accompanied by one or more Advance Directives that deal with how the person in question would like to be treated in their relationship, as determined in a rational frame of mind and attested by a mental health professional.
Initiating a relationship with a mentally incompetent person is ethically iffy.
Doing so with a legally incompetent, mentally competent person isn't.

Very informative but there was no way to tell all that from the one sentence description she gave.  She said she had been found "mentally incompetent."  All these qualifiers and explanations were absent so folks were left to take it anyway they chose.  Obviously that resulted in many different "takes" on the situation........luci 

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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 5:39:10 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Yeah, she has voluntarily declared herself legally incompetent with her Master as legal guardian.
That's not all that uncommon in M/s relationships; it's just a convenient slip of paper.
Doing such a thing takes it one step closer to "absolute" M/s, which some want.
I've helped people work out the details of such arrangements.
From what I read, we are in no way, shape or form talking about mental incompetence.
That's just a slip-up from daddysprop, and a common one at that.
Few know the difference between "legally" and "mentally".
It's legally iffy, since a legal guardian is usually mandated to have a certain kind of relationship to their charge, and many legislations prohibit sexual contact and so forth. On the other hand, there are provisions for (e.g.) married couples to remain couples while one party becomes the legal guardian of the other, and those would probably apply.
Further, a declaration of legal incompetence, particularly a voluntary one, should ideally be accompanied by one or more Advance Directives that deal with how the person in question would like to be treated in their relationship, as determined in a rational frame of mind and attested by a mental health professional.
Initiating a relationship with a mentally incompetent person is ethically iffy.
Doing so with a legally incompetent, mentally competent person isn't.

Very informative but there was no way to tell all that from the one sentence description she gave.  She said she had been found "mentally incompetent."  All these qualifiers and explanations were absent so folks were left to take it anyway they chose.  Obviously that resulted in many different "takes" on the situation........luci 


If she is considered "mentally incompetant" then what Aswad said would support that she's not able to give consent.   i think you also have to take into consideration that laws for such things may differ here, i am not sure if he is speaking about what he knows about US laws or the laws of the country he is from. 

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RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 5:53:06 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

She voluntarily and specifically stated that she has been found "mentally incompetent" and is her master's "ward."


Notably, prop stated that she voluntarily resigned herself to that status at one point in the relationship.
Which kind of obviates the question about consent.

But, much more relevantly, it was clear that this was just a way to get legal recognition for an element of their relationship.

That's not "mentally" incompetent, but "legally" incompetent.

I'm sure there have been other cases where prop used a different terminology than yours.
In this case her terminology was different from mine, as well, but I'm just wierd.
It doesn't change what she's talking about, though, just the words used.

I've been specifically found mentally competent. Several times.
It's been a requirement to undergo some of the experimental treatment I signed up for.
Similarly, my nephandi has also been consistently found mentally competent.

However, we've talked about it in the context of our relationship.
So far it hasn't been very relevant, and we haven't talked it through yet.
But it has appealed to her on the grounds that it reinforces the slave role legally.

And it affords certain protections, as we aren't married.

In certain situations, with no spouse or legal guardian, choices are made by relatives.
Such choices have proven incredibly damaging to her when made by her mother.
For that reason, I had to ask her to name me legal guardian for a while.
Why? Because otherwise I have no say in her medical treatment.
And her mum had her hospitalized as it was "convenient".

Once I was recognized as legal guardian, I had her out of there the next day.
She was mentally competent, according to the doctors' assessment.
But not legally competent, because of a procedural error.
(Insert pages of expletives here.)

Making her my charge let me to sort out the error and save her from the most traumatic experience of her life.
So it's not always a bad thing when the M-type is legal guardian for the s-type.
We've since rescinded the status, as it wasn't necessary any more.

quote:

And, btw, it was she who has stated that some of what is done to her is unequivocably "abuse."


Some of it certainly fits the colloquial definition.
And it's not generally considered kosher by most here.
But I don't have a problem with it, from talking with her so far.

quote:

For one thing, it is just online and he never posts as far as I know.


He doesn't post here, as far as I know.
Elsewhere, however, he's written some stuff.

quote:

Call it what you want to.


Miscommunication would be my first bet.

quote:

However, when she volunteered the information that she has been found mentally incompetent, that changed my perception of the whole situation a bit.


If she had said she was found mentally incompetent prior to entering the relationship, yes.
Being found mentally incompetent afterwards, not so much, depending on specifics.
Voluntarily rescinding legal competence, not a problem.
The latter takes about 15 minutes and a lawyer.
Unless you're also mentally incompetent.
That requires a hearing, etc.

I also don't think she said "found" incompetent; that implies evaluation, and usually inpatent time.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 259
RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance... - 6/19/2007 6:00:22 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

edit to add...pixels?  I thought it was all just words typed on a screen.   


Yeah. Kind of like an oscillating perturbation of air (sound).
Comes down to it, words make poor evidence in any medium.
The proof of the pudding lies in the eating, and that implies being there.

It's not an Internet thing.
It's an "I say, you say, hearsay" thing.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 260
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