quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

That's the problem with you open-border advocates. You can't win this debate without calling opponents either racist ot xenophobe.
That is a false choice.  No one is calling for an open border just an equal shot at immigration.  Those who oppose that concept are in fact bigots and xenophobes...since any educated person recognizes that there is but one race on this planet (the human race) racist is an archaic term that essentially defines bigot.

My family came here legally. They came through Ellis Island and they were forced to cough to make sure they were not carrying disease.
So from your sanctimonious high horse you cannot see that your family came to a country that was stolen by force of arms and somehow that makes you ok?????

And they forbid their native language in their home. When they had kids here, they forced them to learn english and never taught them how to speak their native tongue.
It appears that you are in favor of enforced ignorance.  In most places it is considered a mark of education to be able to converse in more than one language.  Most high schools require a foreign language in order to graduate.  Most colleges and universities also require a foreign language (not the same one as you learned in high school) as a prerequisite for graduation.  Thus implied that all college graduates are trilingual.

Why? Because my great-grandfather believed you had to speak English to be successful in an English-speaking country. He learned it. He forced his kids to learn it.
As it should be.  But to enforce ignorance of ones native tongue is ludicrous.
Something else I don't understand about immigrants of today. I drive by these Cubans or Mexicans and they have their country's flag plastered all over their car. What the hell did they come here for if they love their country so much? My reletives that came here didn't do that. They came here and wrapped themselves with the American flag.
So it would appear that you would also outlaw all St. Patric's day parades since they promote the patron saint of a foreign country?  How about those who choose to fly the "stars and bars" confederate battle flag, would you deny them that right of freedom of expression?  How about those would fly a state flag along with the U.S. flag?

And they sure as hell didn't march in the streets of America waving a foreign country's flag.

Most of these immigrants that are here today would not die for America.
History has failed you on this point sir.  In the thirties the U.S, deported over a million American citizens of Mexican heritage.   When world war II came along Uncle Sam sent all of the males a draft notice to their Mexican addresses....100% of them crossed the boarder illegally to answer the summons from the country who confiscated their property and illegally deported them. 

They are only here for work. They make money and they send it back their country.
Are you not entitled to spend the money you earn any way you choose?  Then why not they?

And that's it. If we become involved in some major world war and we start up the draft.... 90% of these immigrants would run back across the border.
You may have learned to speak English but you do not seem to have learned any of the history of my country.  Perhaps you might avail yourself of the many publicly supported institutions of education or perhaps the public ally supported library system in hopes of disabusing you of your ignorance of the history of our country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Briefly,

Illegal immigration isn't directly linked to xenophobia.  Xenophobia is linked to immigration policy. 

I fully support rigid enforcement of laws.  Deportation is A OK with me.  What I don't support, is the broken welfare system that enables the survival of immigrants (and indeed citizens) with no skills.  What is missing is an adequate, self sustaining social services system, that provides language, job, family planning, and quality of life education.  The ACLU might howl slavery, but why not implement a voluntary program where workers sign up for on the job training courses that teach more than just how to scrub toilets and mop floors; they could include the necessary skills and education that they require to be long term citizens.  They could also be expected, as a condition of their OTJ employment, to pay for this program wholly (perhaps 15% of their pay check or some such.)  This would not only ease their transition from one country to another, but also make their obvious goal (assimilation to our society) rewarding.  Those who do not complete this program successfully could be denied their green cards, and deported.  Such a program is unthinkable, of course, because it forces our nation to recognize these individuals as living, breathing human beings instead of 'potential terrorists.'

The fact is, ifi the influx is unsupportable, it is because we choose not to support it.  If it rains, we can build gutters to funnel the rainwater, or we can watch it crash down all around our houses and flood our streets.  A little planning is what is needed; not a bigger fence.  But, as I suggested, it makes too juicy of a political target to merit an honest, serious solution by our political machinery.  McCarthy would be proud.

Stephan

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Well I guess we should hand America back to the Brits then... oh wait... that's right it wasn't the Brits either....

Oh and didn't the Mexicans (originally came from Spain) steal the land from the Aztecs?
Actually Mexicans come from Mexico,Spaniards come from Spain.

And you comparing the Mexican flag to the Confederate flag is stupid. Even Lincon said the Confederates were Americans.
We are speaking here of flying the battle flag of a defeated nation on the soil of the conquering nation.

You sound just about as stupid as the moron on the radio today
Name calling is always a good way to express the depth of ones intellectual well.

that said the US should be giving Califonia, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas back to Mexico because it is "their homeland."
Look around the world. Other than a few places like China which seems to have existed since the beginning of time....
Since the beginning of time?  I do not remember ever reading that in a history book, could you give us a site to verify this assertion?

you will find that most people are not living on the land their ancestors were born on.

If Mexico wants that land back...they are more than welcome to assemble their army and invade. It will simply give us the oppertunity to do to them what we should have done in 1844...Take the rest of the country. Then we wouldn't have had this immigration and drug trafficking problem we have today.
The U.S. had not annexed Texas in 1844.  Thus we would have had no pretext for invading Mexico as we did in 1846.
The reason we did not take all of Mexico in 1848 was argued on the floor of the congress.  The argument centered about the premise that the addition of so many "non-white" people to the U.S. would dilute the "racial purity" of  the U.S.
Your posts seem to indicate that you are an imperialists.  Is there any other country that you feel the U.S. should acquire?

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Lady, as far as I'm concerned people who use "PC" to try to instill fear in others or to control their thoughts are cousins to 1930's Nazi Germany.
They were very "PC" too, wearn't they?
You people in England need to get a handle on your government!
As far as I'm concerned "pc" people are some of the most vile, disgusting, anal-retentive, manipulative cowards on the planet.
They should be "put down" just like the Nazis.
There is no place in a free society for that type of  thinking.

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ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Understand that actions will always speak louder than words.

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ORIGINAL: LotusSong

I agree. I wonder what would happen if we invested in Mexico the amount of money and advisors we have in Iraq.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Understand that actions will always speak louder than words.

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ORIGINAL: Stephann

Don't forget, it's the Europeans who colonized Mexico and Latin America in the first place ;-)

Stephan

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ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So bassically if I am against illegal immigration....that makes me a xenophobe?

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ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Every nation on this planet has the right to defend its borders.

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ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

You can't just walk into any country you damn well please. The world doesnt work that way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

That's the problem with you open-border advocates. You can't win this debate without calling opponents either racist ot xenophobe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

I don't give a damn a person's nationality or skin color is.....

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ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

There is a legal process defined about how someone comes into the United States legally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

If you come in here illegally, you have committed a crime.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

It is also no business of Canada or Mexico as to what the US decides to do with immigration law.

quote:


For almost three thousand years, Mesoamerica was the site of several advanced Amerindian civilizations such as the Olmec, the Maya and the Aztecs. In 1519, the native civilizations of what now is known as Mexico were invaded by Spain; this was one of the most important conquest campaigns in America. Two years later in 1521, the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan was conquered by an alliance between Spanish and Tlaxcaltecs, the main enemies of the Aztecs, setting up a three-century colonial rule in Mexico. The viceroyalty of New Spain became the first and largest provider of resources for the Spanish Empire, and the most populated of all Spanish colonies.

On September 16, 1810, independence from Spain was declared by Miguel Hidalgo in the small town of Dolores, Guanajuato state, causing a long war that eventually led to recognized independence in 1821 and the creation of an ephemeral First Mexican Empire with Agustín de Iturbide as first and only emperor, deposed in 1823 by the republican forces. In 1824, a republican constitution was drafted creating the United Mexican States with Guadalupe Victoria as its first President. The first four decades of independent Mexico were marked by a constant strife between federalists (those who supported the federal form of government stipulated in the 1824 constitution) and centralists (who proposed a hierarchical form of government in which all local authorities were appointed and subject to a central authority). General Antonio López de Santa Anna was a strong influence in Mexican politics, a centralist and a two-time dictator. In 1836, he approved the Siete Leyes, a radical amendment to the constitution that institutionalized the centralized form of government, after which Texas declared independence from Mexico, obtained in 1836. The annexation of Texas by the United States created a border dispute that would cause the Mexican-American War. Santa Anna played a big role in trying to muster Mexican forces but this war resulted in the resolute defeat of Mexico and as a result of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848), Mexico lost one third of its surface area to the United States.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So you are saying, Thompson, that Mexicans are currently living on their ancestor's land? That's incorrect. The Mexicans are decendants of European settlers from Spain mixed with the civilizations that were already there....
Mexicans are the descendants of Spanish nationals marrying Spanish nationals born in Mexico.  Mestizo is the name of those who are the progeny of Spanish nationals or Mexicans with the indigenous population of Mexico.

A brief history lesson on Mexico...

quote:


For almost three thousand years, Mesoamerica was the site of several advanced Amerindian civilizations such as the Olmec, the Maya and the Aztecs. In 1519, the native civilizations of what now is known as Mexico were invaded by Spain; this was one of the most important conquest campaigns in America. Two years later in 1521, the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan was conquered by an alliance between Spanish and Tlaxcaltecs, the main enemies of the Aztecs, setting up a three-century colonial rule in Mexico. The viceroyalty of New Spain became the first and largest provider of resources for the Spanish Empire, and the most populated of all Spanish colonies.

On September 16, 1810, independence from Spain was declared by Miguel Hidalgo in the small town of Dolores, Guanajuato state, causing a long war that eventually led to recognized independence in 1821 and the creation of an ephemeral First Mexican Empire with Agustín de Iturbide as first and only emperor, deposed in 1823 by the republican forces. In 1824, a republican constitution was drafted creating the United Mexican States with Guadalupe Victoria as its first President. The first four decades of independent Mexico were marked by a constant strife between federalists (those who supported the federal form of government stipulated in the 1824 constitution) and centralists (who proposed a hierarchical form of government in which all local authorities were appointed and subject to a central authority). General Antonio López de Santa Anna was a strong influence in Mexican politics, a centralist and a two-time dictator. In 1836, he approved the Siete Leyes, a radical amendment to the constitution that institutionalized the centralized form of government, after which Texas declared independence from Mexico, obtained in 1836. The annexation of Texas by the United States created a border dispute that would cause the Mexican-American War. Santa Anna played a big role in trying to muster Mexican forces but this war resulted in the resolute defeat of Mexico and as a result of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848), Mexico lost one third of its surface area to the United States.

Which fifth grade history book did you copy this from?

And the reason we didn't take all of Mexico has nothing to do with race (of hispanics at least).
Perhaps you might want to read this address to congress by senator Henry Clay
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=486
And this by senator John C. Calhoon http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/VP_John_Calhoun.htm


The Congress didn't want to take all of Mexico because then it would shift the balance of political power from an anti-slave North to a pro-slave South in both Congress and the Electoral College. They also believed Mexico would make the South much more powerful and profitable than the North.

And you are also incorrect to say that all of the US was gained at the point of the gun. Florida was given up by Spain and the US paid for it.
This is not true.  Andrew Jackson invaded Florida and took two British citizens prisoner and court martialed them.  When the court martial failed to convict them Jackson overturned the verdict and had them executed.  If you are interested in just how the U.S. strong armed Spain into ceding Florida you might want to look here. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/jd/16320.htm
You will note that it states that the U.S. did not pay one cent for Florida

The US also paid France in a little transaction called "The Louisiana Purchase."
France did not own Louisiana.  Louisiana was owned by Spain and if you were to check out the treaty of "San Il Defonso" you would see that France sold something that did not belong to her.  Napoleon also recognized that Jefferson had already mounted a military expedition into Louisiana (The Lewis and Clark expedition) and he,Napoleon, was engaged in a continental war with England and could not spare any troops to defend Louisiana.  So the sale of a piece of dirt he did not own and could not defend,even against the modest force of Lewis and Clark, was done.  His personal declarations were that when he was done with England he would simply take Louisiana back.  Since he held both the king of Spain and the heir to the throne of Spain he was able to repudiate the treaty of San Il Defonso.

You see, many of these European countries over-extended themselves with all that land. And it just wasnt profitable to hold it anymore.
Before you try to teach history you should probably study it first.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

And what left-wing school did you get your teaching from? I've had far-left wing professors who were border-line communists in college that wern't as anti-American as you are.
I do not understand what I have said that would lead you to believe that I am left wing or anti-American.  I have worn a uniform and carried a gun and taken hostile fire for my country.  So just take that anti-American crap and park it where the sun don't shine.  The fact that I tell you the truth that you do not want to hear is not my problem.  If you could refute anything I have said then trot out the data.

I have made it clear enough that this has nothing to do with racism. If these people come in here legally, I am happy about it. I have no problem with it and I dont care if their skin is brown, white, black, red, green, or blue. But I am completely against people coming into this country illegally.
What I am trying to point out to you is the historical background for what is going on.  You make asinine and fatuous statements  and when I point out your ignorance you respond by referring to me as stupid and moronic.

I am strongly in favor of border security. Build a 2,000 mile fence if we have to. And yes, barriers work. The Great Wall of China is 4,000 miles and has worked for the Chinese for thousands of years.
Once again your ignorance of history is underwhelming....Wiki is not history it is consensus.


Anyone caught trying to go under, over, or through the fence should be shot on site.
Ain't you a little ray of sunshine.
This border between the US and Mexico is completely out of control. There is human smuggling going on. There is drug and arms trafficking going on. And I am all for any use of force to put an end to it.
The simple way to stop illegal aliens from coming into the U.S. is to raise the minimum wage to about fifteen dollars an hour and then there would be no jobs for them.  American citizens would take those jobs.  Who, except those in desperate financial need, would work a stoop job for five or six dollars an hour.
The drug traffickers are only supplying a need that exist on this side of the border.  Legalize drugs and the drug cartel is out of business.

These drug cartels have more military weapons and ammunition than Al-Queda.
You know this because ????  Just how is it that you are privy to the TO of both Al-Queda and the drug cartels?  Why have you not shared this valuable information with homeland security?

If the Mexican government won't take care of that problem, then the US army should be taking care of it.
It appears that the U.S. Army can't take care of Al-Queda how do you expect them to do a better job against an enemy you claim is better armed.

I've been reading stories on the internet of people who own farms near the border. They talk about how the Mexican military actively escorts the drug shipments across the border with automatic weapons. This needs to stop.
It would appear that your ignorance is only exceeded by your gullibility.

And if you think any of those morons in Washington debating Immigration gives a damn about families or helping people?...you are out of your mind. The only thing they care about is money and the cheap labor corporations are getting in return.
They are not morons.  They are business men who are seeking to exploit a cheap source of labor while at the same time taking advantage of bigots to keep pressure on the illegal aliens so they "know their place"


Meanwhile the average middle-class working American is getting being screwed over and over again by this joke of a government.
If you voted for either of the two major parties then you are as much a part of the problem as they are.

Pull out of the mid-east and put our troops on our borders. That is the purpose of our army. Protect the homeland from this Mexican invasion. And we need a Congress that will tell Bush to stick his "Security and Prosperity Agreement" up his ass. There will not be any EU-style government in the Americas.
It is already here.  Look at GAT,NAFTA and all the other slick ways to utilize slave labor just off shore.  Go to Home Depot, Lowes,Harbor Freight,Costco, Wally World,  if you buy that slave labor created merchandise then you are part of the problem.
They understand that you would rather point the finger of responsibility at someone else and as long as you do not accept responsibility for your own foolishness and greed they will continue to reap the benefits.