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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 8:45:17 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You are avoiding my point. Abortion is the termination of a life that isn't fully formed.


Neither is a 2 year old fully formed, it's just further along than a human being 2 years earlier in development.

Even early in the womb though, the human being is capable of feeling sensation, pain, etc.


Can actually program your Roomba to feel sensations and respond to "painful" stimuli.

Should we amend the constitution to protect them too?

Sinergy

p.s.  I make this point because living tissue will pick up sensations (like pain) but the neural network to take the sensation from the cells in the skin are not actually connected up to any sort of cognitive brain matter.  What you are seeing is reactions from the primitive nerve tissue forming in the cellular net. 

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 8:53:26 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Okay: killing can be taken as actively ending a life. [...] with your clarification, I accept your term.


Much appreciated.

quote:


I missed your point here: were you asking me whether I establish a line between human embryos and non-human ones (ie. those of mice)? Otherwise, to me, a human embryo is just that. And it makes it all the more difficult to me to argue in favour of choice.


I'm not neccessarily interested in mice at the moment. Depends on where this leads. But a distinguishing line that says when it stops being "a lump of cells" and starts being "a human" would be nice. Which is why I raised the point about the "goalposts" being vague.

quote:


Of course the logical conclusion is 'insupportable' (in French in the text)! Of course it's an unbearable thing to do. There is no way anybody can be 'pro-abortion'. I speak from knowledge, and it saddens me terribly that I do. Alas, human life cannot be reduced to a succession of logical conclusions.


I'll try to explain by way of an example instead, then.

Let's say the defining criterion is the maturity of the brain. (Commonly used argument)
In that case, people born without higher brain function are not human, and can be killed.
Similarly, people who lose higher brain function cease to be human, and can be killed.

Those two conclusions are unacceptable to many. That makes their position "unsupportable", and that makes the argument itself unsupported. In logic, that's often called "reductio ad absurdam" or somesuch.

I've found similar problems with all the other possible lines one could draw, at least those I could come up with, and that's more than a few. As for logic, life isn't always logical, but rational thinking remains the only tool we have for approaching life, pretty much.

Without clear arguments, we are choosing when it's okay to kill and when it's not on an individual basis. One human deciding that another lives or dies, then enacting that choice. With nothing but an individual judgment on that one life. Playing G*d, as some would put it, although I realize that's just an appeal to emotion.

quote:


You already know I cannot do this. It's painfully obvious that it's beyond my realm to make being pro-choice a comfortable option. But I believe it's the only choice in an imperfect world.


The first part of your statement is why I have a problem with the last part.
Believing one has the "only" solution, is a red flag, quite often.
Explaining the position lessens that effect.

In effect, as I recall, this all started with a comment on getting one's nose out of others' "cunts", no?


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We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/20/2007 4:10:48 AM   
farglebargle


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Bill Hicks said it best: "You're not human until you're in *my* phone book".



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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/20/2007 6:05:28 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Bill Hicks said it best: "You're not human until you're in *my* phone book".


This is a great idea! Hell, I'm a pretty good shot, and I don't see you listed in my phone book. Now, if only the police would adopt this, so that no one would care..

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/20/2007 6:26:52 AM   
CuriousLord


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My friend, I would encourage you to consider a point. In the debate over abortion, we can all pretty much agree that abortion is killing the collection of cells in question. It's often asked, "Is wrong?", which leads to, "Is it murder?", which leads to, "Are these cells human?"

I'd like to point out that the foundation of morality seems to care very little for actual human DNA- so long as it's something we can empathize with. If it's a human-like android, or a humaniod alien, or something of the sort, and not overly dissimilar from human beings, it's likely a human might come to see the violation of the parameters one might require of such a being as to consider it "alive" as an act of murder.

My point being, it's empathy that we look for to determine the rights of things outside ourselves- how much does this thing remind of of ourselves? The question of morality truly comes to be the extent to which one can empathize with the subject in question. In this case, abortion is moreso murder in the eyes of those who do not see themselves as far removed from a collection of cells after conception.

Implications:

-Those who are younger, or otherwise feel closer to this stage, such as children, are more likely to find abortion are murder.
-Those who might adopt a secondary sense of empathy, such as a new mother, who sees herself in her child, in addition to any selfless feelings, might then relate the subject of abortion as being similar to her child. So, a newborn's mother is likely to be against abortion.
-Those who recongize themself in other things more readily, are, in general, more likely to empathize, including with the cells in question.

-Empathy may be overriden by greater empathy, such as for self (identity). While one might assign some value to the cells in question, if it is more strongly in their own interests, or at least, when weighted with their respective empathetic values, one would be liable to neglect concern for abortion.

Such as, even people who are fond of other people are more likely to chose getting $1 themselves than some random stranger that they'll never meet getting $2. While they might otherwise say, "Sure, give him $2", they'd not do so at the cost of a dollar to themself. This is seen, constantly, in extravagent spending on self instead of donations to charity.

This applies to this subject in that, while one might empathize with a child, one weighs its self-interests, excluding and outside of empathetic concerns, against such empathetic concerns. While one might otherwise wish a child well, should this child be in surificent determent to this one's own motivations, this one is likely to opt against the child.


In any case, my point is that, it's not so much if the embryo is human, but if people can relate to the embryo as being like themself, and therefore sharing in rights.

(Alternatively, rights can be assigned through coercion. Such as, enforced law. This is not addressed here; still, embryos, lacking strength, are not truly able to coerce others into illegalizing abortion. Therefore, this is more of a moot point with regards to the subject.)

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age and infertility - 6/20/2007 6:32:56 AM   
LittleWolvenOne


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"Wonderful just world, you can't afford to raise your baby, so give it to some people that waited too long chasing the almighty buck until their plumbing dried up and they became infertile... nice "choice" there..."

"If the biological parents did not want to keep the embryo around to be adopted out, take the time off work to have the embryo, deal with morning sickness, stretch marks, explaining to everyone they were giving away their offspring, I would rather those people had a choice not to bring the embryo to term. I am not for older people forcing young ones that are economically disadvantaged into providing them with heirs because they did not have their kids at the right time themselves... "

Even though I focus my politics on safe sex education, I personally support adoption and if necessary, would be as likely to adopt an older child as I would a younger child or newborn. However, I don't think it is purely the pursuit of finances that prevents many people from having children until they are older.

Many people in thier late 20's are not only just beginning to have carreers and setttle down, but they are also just beginning to have serious relationships. Many between 18-25 still think of them selves as teen-agers and very young adults who are trying to figure out thier lives. Ironically, they are also the age group where they think of themselves as young adults taking on responsibility. It is probably a combination of both.

I will 30 very soon and am very surprised by the number of people who ask me if I have children. Until the past couple of years, I still thought of my self as a teen ager/young adult who was too young to have children. Two years ago, I wasn't in a stable and reliable relationship with some one I thought I could have children with. I recently learned that many women have difficulty concieving in thier 30's and that this difficulty concieving increases every year after 30. This is disapointing to me, knowing how women in thier late 20s who are just beginning to find some one they plan to develop a future with and consider having children with.

It is really sad that there are very young women under 20 and some even under 15 who are having children and making adult decisions. But I don't think the people who made the adult decisions to practice safe and protected sex in thier 20's are at fault. No one is forcing under age children to have sex.. and those that do are hopefully in the appropriate jail cell, not in a middle/upper class home hoping and waiting to adopt.



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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/20/2007 7:16:14 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Bill Hicks said it best: "You're not human until you're in *my* phone book".


This is a great idea! Hell, I'm a pretty good shot, and I don't see you listed in my phone book. Now, if only the police would adopt this, so that no one would care..


You wanna take your chances when my kin come to avenge me, that's your stupid choice.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/20/2007 8:30:46 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

........ I have never judged anyone who has made choices other than those I would chose for myself. I know how I feel. The fact is, there is no perfect solution. I do what  I can in my small part of the world.



..fair response. The reason i came down so hard on your posts in particular is that they, in all conscience, seemed judgemental. It would seem this was not your intention.
As to there being no perfect solution, i couldn't agree more.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/20/2007 8:37:00 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord


I'd like to point out that the foundation of morality seems to care very little for actual human DNA- so long as it's something we can empathize with. .........My point being, it's empathy that we look for to determine the rights of things outside ourselves- how much does this thing remind of of ourselves? The question of morality truly comes to be the extent to which one can empathize with the subject in question..



....a false premise, in my opinion. If morality is a function of empathy then it allows acts against humans whom we don't empathise with that we would find appalling if applied to our friends. It is exactly your premise that allows human rights abuses against a range of victims worldwide. Gitmo for example. A good test of whether or not a human is acting morally is whether or not they apply those standards to those they don't empathise with as well as those they do.

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RE: age and infertility - 6/20/2007 8:39:23 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

It is really sad that there are very young women under 20 and some even under 15 who are having children and making adult decisions. But I don't think the people who made the adult decisions to practice safe and protected sex in thier 20's are at fault. No one is forcing under age children to have sex.. and those that do are hopefully in the appropriate jail cell, not in a middle/upper class home hoping and waiting to adopt.


It is sad that women who are young have babies (I would agree that 15 year olds in the USA are far too young to have babies because of the way they are raised)? Nature intended for people to reproduce young. All through our history people got married soon after puberty, reproduced themselves, and this was seen as normal, not sad. What is abnormal is putting off reproduction while you find yourself to the point you lose the ability to reproduce. It is just the facts of life hun, I did not make the biological rules of our species and when they reach biological maturity, mother nature did.

A female reaches her most fertile at approximately 18 years of age, it is all downhill from there.

I am editing this to address putting people that are following their biological imperatives and mating before you think they should into jail... that is so silly!

I also have to say, I have to wonder about someone that felt like a teenager until they were nearly 30, like everyone else is this frivelous in their approach to life. I was a mother at 22, and well prepared emotionally to assume the responsibility of motherhood. My own mother was 18 and a terrific mother.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/20/2007 8:47:06 AM >


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RE: age and infertility - 6/20/2007 9:23:52 AM   
cjenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I also have to say, I have to wonder about someone that felt like a teenager until they were nearly 30, like everyone else is this frivelous in their approach to life. I was a mother at 22, and well prepared emotionally to assume the responsibility of motherhood. My own mother was 18 and a terrific mother.


Wow. I still feel like a teenager with respect to many things in life. Personally at 22 I was in NO shape way or form ready to be a mother so kudos to you for being ready at that age.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up - 6/20/2007 9:45:45 AM   
juliaoceania


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I think it is good that you knew you were not ready, and sometimes I feel like a teenager still (in fact as my UM approaches adulthood in the next year I feel like I am going to get to live a second childhood soon, and I am still young enough to enjoy being responsibility free.. .go me!) My point is that young people are not all the same, and nature made us able to reproduce at a certain age... we have a window of opportunity, and then that opportunity is gone, forever, unless we want to get injected with hormones, go through the pain of infertility treatments. And there is no guarantee of that being successful.

My former dominant's daughter got pregnant at 20 while we were seeing each other. He completely thought it a bad idea that she had her baby so young, he was very upset by it all at first. I told him that she has a window of opportunity, and she will never be a childless person now, ever. She will be a mom and no one can take that from her. It is 4 years later, she is still in college, and everyone adores her UM.

Gail Sheehy wrote books about how we have changed as a culture, how we have extended the idea of adolescence to continue through the 20s, and I am not certain that this is a very healthy state of being. Look at Paris Hilton for example, and her inability to "act her age". Perhaps she is just a reflection of her peer group?

In my opinion children are best had before one thinks too hard about all they require, because if one thinks too hard on it, they wouldn't do it. Young people have a lot to give their own UMs, such as youthful vigor, play, the ability to keep up with them, and the increased likelihood to be around for the grandbabies... older parents have good qualities too.

I am glad I had mine when I did, like I said, I will still be young enough to enjoy life once he hits majority and goes on to build his own life away from me. I am young still... in fact I might be young enough still to try to have more UMs if I wanted... although I don't want to... I will await the grandbabies.

In fact if I wanted more UMs, I would take one no one else seemed to want, I do not need a shiny newborn because after rearing one to almost adulthood I realize that parenting is a far different animal than I originally thought... for one we do not own our UMs, they are only lent to us. They are only with us for a finite period of time. Another thing I learned, I had to grow up on the job so to speak. I have this sister that has not parented before, and while she is very much a responsible grownup, there are some ways that she is immature. I think that parenting helps one "grow up" in many ways that no other experience quite gives a person. No one can have all experiences, and I am still very immature in my own ways too I suppose... so that is not a slam on people who have never parented, it is just an observation that it is really hard to have the same experience as someone that has... just like I have never had chronic pain, i have no idea what that would be like.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/20/2007 9:54:16 AM >


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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up - 6/20/2007 9:59:30 AM   
cjenny


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Sometimes.. sometimes I do wonder what it would be like to have had child/ren. It would have been wrong & selfish for me to have had any which taints my entire view of things. Well maybe not 'taint' but certainly has me viewing things from a different perspective.
At 41 I'm pretty much physically useless and that would have been a burden on a kid. Sigh. Yesterday I got my permanent handicap license plate and I cried the entire way home. If I can't even handle this.. I don't see how I could have managed to raise a healthy person.
Screw it lol I dunno what I'm saying nor why I'm saying it. This is one of those 'do I hit OK, or delete this' posts.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up - 6/20/2007 10:08:43 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

Sometimes.. sometimes I do wonder what it would be like to have had child/ren. It would have been wrong & selfish for me to have had any which taints my entire view of things. Well maybe not 'taint' but certainly has me viewing things from a different perspective.
At 41 I'm pretty much physically useless and that would have been a burden on a kid. Sigh. Yesterday I got my permanent handicap license plate and I cried the entire way home. If I can't even handle this.. I don't see how I could have managed to raise a healthy person.
Screw it lol I dunno what I'm saying nor why I'm saying it. This is one of those 'do I hit OK, or delete this' posts.


....not everyone gets the privilige of raising kids, Cjenny. My two both died before they were a day old. However, it has been said by wise people that 'it takes a village to raise a child'. Sometimes we just have to be part of the village.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up - 6/20/2007 10:13:12 AM   
cjenny


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I just sent you mail on the other side. With just a few words you managed to let me see an entirely different side.
Thank you, so much.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up - 6/20/2007 10:13:47 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Yesterday I got my permanent handicap license plate and I cried the entire way home. If I can't even handle this.. I don't see how I could have managed to raise a healthy person.
Screw it lol I dunno what I'm saying nor why I'm saying it. This is one of those 'do I hit OK, or delete this' posts.


I am very sorry that you are having such a rough week cjenny, having lived with people with chronic pain I have witnessed the challenges that must be faced, even though there is no way I could possibly know what that feels like

quote:

....not everyone gets the privilige of raising kids, Cjenny. My two both died before they were a day old. However, it has been said by wise people that 'it takes a village to raise a child'. Sometimes we just have to be part of the village.


I am sooo sorry philosophy

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up - 6/20/2007 10:14:02 AM   
philosophy


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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up - 6/20/2007 10:38:06 AM   
cjenny


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You're right, I am having an exceptionally bad week. I worry oh man I worry that it colors my posts, and I worry that my words aren't coming out in a coherent order. I worry that I should maybe just isolate until this current flare up is gone. I worry that ppl will see me as some sort of freak that can't string thoughts together.
Most of all I worry that it is so easily seen when I'm struggling against this damned pain & mental fog.

Heh. Thats why I am mostly staying in the off topic section for now. Figure here I'm relatively harmless to others.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up - 6/20/2007 10:40:08 AM   
juliaoceania


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The off topic area is where the sharks circle!

Your posts make sense to me

_____________________________

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up - 6/20/2007 11:00:40 AM   
philosophy


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...sharks with big grins........

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