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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up - 6/20/2007 1:11:47 PM

FatDomDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The off topic area is where the sharks circle!

Daaa na,

Daaa na,

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/20/2007 1:46:57 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

..a false premise, in my opinion. If morality is a function of empathy then it allows acts against humans whom we don't empathise with that we would find appalling if applied to our friends. It is exactly your premise that allows human rights abuses against a range of victims worldwide. Gitmo for example. A good test of whether or not a human is acting morally is whether or not they apply those standards to those they don't empathise with as well as those they do.

Well said. I believe the heart of the problem lies in our tribal heritage. We evolved as a tribal species and still are (today we form pseudo-tribes: sports teams, businesses, political parties, nations etc.). In our early history our tribal instincts served us well. Fellow tribal members were good, strangers were bad – or at least, suspect. It was (and still is) perfectly natural for us to show compassion toward our fellow tribal members while having none for the outsider. This explains how a man can go off to war, commit horrible atrocities, then come home and be a decent family man the rest of his life. Those outside the tribe just don’t count as being human.

Our saving grace will be our ability to reason, to overrule our instincts and look upon the entire human race as a single tribe. To show compassion as a matter of choice, not instinct.

In that light, allow me to extend my condolences on the loss of your children. I can’t imagine a greater pain – nor would I want to.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/20/2007 2:33:16 PM

MrrPete

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If you want to know the truth go to:

www.snopes.com

there's a search box to the upper right. Just enter

Help my baby live

Most results will show "false". There is a true story along these lines but this is not the one.

Snopes is the place to go to verify any story or report one.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/20/2007 2:44:49 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Bill Hicks said it best: "You're not human until you're in *my* phone book".

This is a great idea! Hell, I'm a pretty good shot, and I don't see you listed in my phone book. Now, if only the police would adopt this, so that no one would care..

You wanna take your chances when my kin come to avenge me, that's your stupid choice.

They won't care. I'll simply burn their phone books before hand. ;)

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/20/2007 9:19:35 PM

CuriousLord

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Ack. I suppose the orginial post didn't go through. This is going to be slightly less articulate- I'm beat- but it should help get the point across.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
I'd like to point out that the foundation of morality seems to care very little for actual human DNA- so long as it's something we can empathize with. .........My point being, it's empathy that we look for to determine the rights of things outside ourselves- how much does this thing remind of of ourselves? The question of morality truly comes to be the extent to which one can empathize with the subject in question..

....a false premise, in my opinion. If morality is a function of empathy then it allows acts against humans whom we don't empathise with that we would find appalling if applied to our friends. It is exactly your premise that allows human rights abuses against a range of victims worldwide. Gitmo for example. A good test of whether or not a human is acting morally is whether or not they apply those standards to those they don't empathise with as well as those they do.

Alright, so you're saying:
-Morality is not a function of empathy.
You support this with:
-"it allows acts against humans whom we don't empathise with [..]"

I'd like to point out that, by calling someone else human, you're empathizing with them already. You're considering them like yourself- and applying some of your assumptions about self to them.

By considering someone human, you open up empathy, and the potential to allow for rights.

(This response is more of a rebuttal than something meant to help one understand the concept. Sorry, I'm tired. In any case, I hope it may help you to see my point.)

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/20/2007 9:36:14 PM

CuriousLord

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We relate (or, to use my previous terms, empathize) with humans within our own "tribe"s moreso than others. It isn't a overpowering logical call such much as a basic judgement when it comes to those furter removed from ourselves, such as humans outside of our "tribe"s.

In general, I'd say most would like $10 themselves most, correct? After that, they'd like money to stay inside of the family? Then inside of the country? Then inside of the world? Or, perhaps, within those we otherwise see as worthy of such funds, appealing to similar values, thus gaining empathy while outside of an established "tribe"?

We do tend to empathize with people in our own groups more closely- but I fear to see things through such a tribal view is a simplification. Like most, it can make things easier to understand, but it is still formed to flaw outside of the appropriate range of approximation.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/21/2007 1:32:13 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Our saving grace will be our ability to reason, to overrule our instincts and look upon the entire human race as a single tribe. To show compassion as a matter of choice, not instinct.

...absolutely bang on. It is a perfectly viable way to look at human history (at least post enlightenment) as a growing number of personal choices regarding the way we percieve the world. In another thread i alluded to my faith in the possibility of the shift you describe above. i suppose i consider it 'a consummation devoutly to be wished'....(i know how much you love shakespeare

)

As to the loss of my kids, thanks for your kind words........

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/21/2007 1:42:17 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Alright, so you're saying:
-Morality is not a function of empathy.
You support this with:
-"it allows acts against humans whom we don't empathise with [..]"

I'd like to point out that, by calling someone else human, you're empathizing with them already. You're considering them like yourself- and applying some of your assumptions about self to them.

By considering someone human, you open up empathy, and the potential to allow for rights.

(This response is more of a rebuttal than something meant to help one understand the concept. Sorry, I'm tired. In any case, I hope it may help you to see my point.)

.....i can see you're tired CL......obvious logical flaw there i'm afraid. If you argue against my point that empathy is not the touchstone for morality that you suggested earlier, it doesn't help your position to then suggest that empathy is a constant across all interactions with all humans. There sems to me to be an obvious dissonance betwen arguing for universality of empathy while simultaneously suggesting that there can be humans for whom we feel no empathy for and can therefore act in an immoral way.

If there were entities from Betelgeuse here it might have backed up your position, although in all fairness i'm still not sure about Ron....

quote:

ORIGINAL Curious Lord
In general, I'd say most would like $10 themselves most, correct? After that, they'd like money to stay inside of the family? Then inside of the country? Then inside of the world? Or, perhaps, within those we otherwise see as worthy of such funds, appealing to similar values, thus gaining empathy while outside of an established "tribe"?

...perhaps this is a better argument, a non-absolute view of degree of empathy is certainly nearer reality. However, what you are describing is not the same as morality. Morality is an artefact, a human construct. We can choose to act morally....and we can also choose to ignore our degree of empathy with the target while doing so.......arguably this is a major aspect of civilised behaviour......

hope you had a good rest

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/21/2007 4:57:13 PM

MistressLauren19

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Wow, this is still going on?

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/21/2007 5:50:49 PM

philosophy

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.....apparently so......got a contribution to make?

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/21/2007 7:55:41 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Like most, it can make things easier to understand, but it is still formed to flaw outside of the appropriate range of approximation.

Ummm... What?

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/21/2007 7:59:57 PM

philosophy

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...think CL is trying to say that simple maps wil fail if applied to complex geography........or sommat.......

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/21/2007 8:33:07 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

...absolutely bang on. It is a perfectly viable way to look at human history (at least post enlightenment) as a growing number of personal choices regarding the way we percieve the world. In another thread i alluded to my faith in the possibility of the shift you describe above. i suppose i consider it 'a consummation devoutly to be wished'....(i know how much you love shakespeare )

As to the loss of my kids, thanks for your kind words........

It will be fascinating will be to watch the effect of this new Communication Revolution (the internet, cell phones, wireless, etc.) will have on the human race’s development and evolution. It is now theoretically possible for any one human to communicate with any other human on the planet (we’re doing it right know). Will familiarity breed contempt, or understanding? Whatever the outcome, I believe future historians will rank the Communication Revolution along side the Agricultural Revolution and the Industrial Revolution in terms of its impact on humanity.

You’re Welcome.

Yup, I do love my Shakespeare. I try to get to Stratford, Ontario every year (can’t wait to see Grahame Green in "The Merchant of Venice," and "Of Mice and Men). In reference to something you mentioned on another thread, when I drive there (about two and a half hours from the border) I play a game: "count the Tim Hortons." Last Year I counted ninety-seven. I shit you not.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/22/2007 2:09:06 AM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
.....i can see you're tired CL......obvious logical flaw there i'm afraid. If you argue against my point that empathy is not the touchstone for morality that you suggested earlier, it doesn't help your position to then suggest that empathy is a constant across all interactions with all humans. There sems to me to be an obvious dissonance betwen arguing for universality of empathy while simultaneously suggesting that there can be humans for whom we feel no empathy for and can therefore act in an immoral way.

I think you're misunderstanding me, though it's.. a lil past the point I can recongize what this might've referred to. Empathy effects things- how they're weighed in interests. It is not the sole factor, and it varies across individuals and their specific considerations. It can be outweighed by other empathies- such as, one can steal from a homeless man if he doesn't empathzie with the homeless fellow at all, or very, very slimly. You see, he also empathizes with himself- or, in common, identities self as self. While a that poor man's next meal may only be convinence for him, he cares enough about himself over the homeless man as to be able to take it.

I'd ask you think a little more. I do not feel you've.. found my point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...perhaps this is a better argument, a non-absolute view of degree of empathy is certainly nearer reality. However, what you are describing is not the same as morality. Morality is an artefact, a human construct. We can choose to act morally....and we can also choose to ignore our degree of empathy with the target while doing so.......arguably this is a major aspect of civilised behaviour......

To be blunt, the idea of a human "chosing" over coming to something for a set of reasons, considering the human mind as free-acting, wreaks of intellectual surrender to the notion of free will, failing to remove it from one's considerations.

This is to say, you said "we can also chose to ignore [...]", yet I'm talking about why we make that chose, while you seem to be just taking it for granted.. looking at a smaller part of the picture. Empathy- its varing degrees and contrasts- are a large part of the choice.

And, yes, morality can be seen as a construct. It can even become a construct, proper, to an extent (~Kay's). Nonetheless, there is a rhyme and reason.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

hope you had a good rest

Better than I've had in a good while, though, here I am, at 5:08 AM, posting again. I can't stop working on this project.. it's become far too much of an obsession. It's a couple months from complete, though, so, by then, we'll see if I get back on schedule. Classes start back up in less than three weeks, so, if nothing else, those will force me into more of a standard schedule. Hope it's going well enough for you, too.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/22/2007 2:15:04 AM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Like most, it can make things easier to understand, but it is still formed to flaw outside of the appropriate range of approximation.

Ummm... What?

We make generalizations to serve as simplifactions. They make life easier- and they can be, if they're a good generalization, pretty much accurate, for a certain range.

Tons of examples. Since I love Physics, Netwon's' first. Netwon's Laws are still taught to kids today. Stuff like, conservation of momentum. Works great, too!, while you work at more human scales. Of course, it's, even then, slightly off, but not so much to really matter. At very small levels, though, quantum effects damn its results. Relativity does somethign similar, with regards to higher speeds.

Another model is, "You can speak to anyone in English". Where I live, that's a pretty good assumption- in all my life, I've never met anyone here who couldn't speak English. Then again, that's this little corner of the world. It's pretty much accurate, here, though it's only pretty much accurate so long as it's applied here, or somewhere else where it happens to work.

Anyhow, as to not make a short explanation encumbered by examples, I hope this works.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/22/2007 12:14:57 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

It will be fascinating will be to watch the effect of this new Communication Revolution (the internet, cell phones, wireless, etc.) will have on the human race’s development and evolution. It is now theoretically possible for any one human to communicate with any other human on the planet (we’re doing it right know). Will familiarity breed contempt, or understanding? Whatever the outcome, I believe future historians will rank the Communication Revolution along side the Agricultural Revolution and the Industrial Revolution in terms of its impact on humanity.
..............
when I drive there [Ontario] (about two and a half hours from the border) I play a game: "count the Tim Hortons." Last Year I counted ninety-seven. I shit you not.

Yup....the communication revolution will most certainly have many effects that its creators have not considered. One of my first experiences of the internet involved a voice chat room and about 8 people....think there was a South African, an Aussie, a couple of Americans, myself from Wales, an Englishman, someone from Ecuador and a German......we took it in turns to sing lines from 'Danny Boy' to each other......it seemed to me then that this was something entirely new in human history, an opportunity for those of us who aren't diplomats to just send time with each other. i still find it a marvellous thing, capable of both frivolity and great seriousness.

As for the ubiquity of Timmy's......well, this year Canada, next year...THE WORLD

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/22/2007 12:19:34 PM

philosophy

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CL.......a number of things to think about in your post, just as you apparently feel i've missed your point i'm fairly sure you've missed mine......lol, but this is probably normal given the limitations of this media.
i am curious however as to how it can be an intellectual surrender to believe that free will is part of our psycho-ethical decision making process, just as empathy is. Surely both are valid elements, but in the meta-social sense the balance between the two is up for discussion........

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/22/2007 12:49:12 PM

SeeksOnlyOne

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after reading that i can only think of one thing to say-a fav old saying of granddaddys

roll up tha pants, too late to save the shoes...

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/22/2007 12:59:02 PM

SeeksOnlyOne

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Wonderful just world, you can't afford to raise your baby, so give it to some people that waited too long chasing the almighty buck until their plumbing dried up and they became infertile... nice "choice" there...

Don't want your baby aborted, stop having sex dude

If the biological parents did not want to keep the embryo around to be adopted out, take the time off work to have the embryo, deal with morning sickness, stretch marks, explaining to everyone they were giving away their offspring, I would rather those people had a choice not to bring the embryo to term. I am not for older people forcing young ones that are economically disadvantaged into providing them with heirs because they did not have their kids at the right time themselves...

Harsh, but the entire topic is harsh....

And I think that this website highlights this perfectly.... having kids is an economic endeavor that many can ill afford, this couple maybe scum... but they highlight the fact that the rich are not willing to help poor people keep their babies.. but they are more than happy to take the shiny newborns out of some crushed young woman's arms.

as an adoptee, whos parents were older than everyone elses, that amuses me in some ways and really offends me in many others.

mom and dad couldnt have children because he was left sterile from having scarlet fever as a child. they didnt find this out until they were almost 30, as they kept trying, thinking nature would take its course.

i met my biological family when i was 26 and it was a blessing to all that adoption was an option. would i have been aborted if it were legal? who knows. my mind cant even because i am here.

just please remember not all adopt at a later age because of chasing the career path......most dont run to find out whats wrong after a year or 2 of not conceiving, they expect it will happen when it is supposed to.

and not all who give up a baby are broken people.....it is the greatest gift of love i have ever been given and took a very strong woman to hand her baby away to offer it a better chance at life.

edited cause i am a moron at the quote thing......sighs

< Message edited by SeeksOnlyOne -- 6/22/2007 1:04:23 PM >

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/22/2007 1:09:06 PM

SeeksOnlyOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLauren19

I am a female and 100% pro-life. Don't assume that all women are pro-choice. Remember what they say about assumtions. They make an ass out of you and me.

i am pro choice....does that mean i would have an abortion? no.........but im not going to worry about whether you choose to or not. pro choice is just that-not pro death.

< Message edited by SeeksOnlyOne -- 6/22/2007 1:10:14 PM >

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