Man Lynched in Texas (Full Version)

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selfbnd411 -> Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 6:05:06 PM)

See the end note...I wonder if the authorities would be so quick to deny it was a hate crime if the crowd had been white rather than black...

Crowd kills man after car hits child
By LIZ AUSTIN PETERSON, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 39 minutes ago

AUSTIN, Texas - Police on Wednesday were pleading for witnesses to help them track down members of an angry mob that beat a man to death after the car he was riding in apparently struck and injured a child.

Investigators were struggling to piece together what happened Tuesday when David Rivas Morales died defending the driver from members of a crowd leaving a Juneteenth celebration. There could have been anywhere from two to 20 attackers, Austin Police Commander Harold Piatt said.

The car in which Morales, 40, was a passenger had entered an apartment complex's parking lot when it struck a 3- or 4-year-old child, Piatt said. The child was taken to a hospital with non-life-threatening injuries.

The driver got out of the car to check on the child and was confronted by several people, Piatt said. When they attacked the driver, Morales got out of the car to protect the driver and was attacked as well. Police said no guns or knives were used.

The driver got away and is cooperating with investigators, who are not releasing his name.

Margaret Morales said a young boy came to her door to tell her that her brother was lying on the ground outside. She found David Morales, sprawled on the pavement 100 feet from her townhouse, battered and choking on blood.

She said her mother came running after hearing her screams, but police wouldn't let either of them get close to him.

Police arrived one minute after receiving a 911 call, by which time the beating had stopped, department spokeswoman Toni Chovanetz said. But the Morales family complained that medical help was slow in coming.

David Morales arrived at the hospital about 35 minutes after the 911 call was received, said Warren Hassinger, Austin-Travis County Emergency Services spokesman. Emergency officials said police ordered them to wait until the area was secure.

An estimated 2,000 to 3,000 people were in the area for a city-sponsored festival for Juneteenth, which commemorates Texas slaves getting the word that they had been freed.

Several hundred people had filled the parking lot and street as the daylong festival at a nearby park ended and spilled over into the surrounding neighborhoods, said Katherine White, a Morales family friend who lives in a townhouse next door to where the beating took place.

Police said the injured child was a girl, but White said it was a boy with long hair he wears in ponytails.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070620/ap_on_re_us/crash_assault

Edit to add:

While Mr Morales was Hispanic and his attackers were black, police said they did not believe the attack was racially motivated.

"This wasn't a hate crime," Cdr Piatt said. "This wasn't a racist crime. There is absolutely no reason to think race had anything to do with this."

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21942632-5005961,00.html



farglebargle -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 6:09:28 PM)

"There's No Justice like Angry Mob Justice!"



Level -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 6:51:57 PM)

I can almost assure you, if it had been a white group, yes, it would have been called racially motivated.
 
The whole concept of "hate crimes" is idiotic.



farglebargle -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 7:36:20 PM)

Excepting simple property crimes, aren't all crimes hate crimes?




Real0ne -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 8:21:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411Investigators were struggling to piece together what happened Tuesday when David Rivas Morales died defending the driver from members of a crowd leaving a Juneteenth celebration. There could have been anywhere from two to 20 attackers, Austin Police Commander Harold Piatt said.



keep your eyes on austin, its the totalitarian proving grounds :)  intereting things always brewing htere.



UtopianRanger -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 8:39:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"There's No Justice like Angry Mob Justice!"



No.....There's no justice like ''Lone Star'' justice.


Remember the Alamo.....




- R



Marc2b -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 9:00:29 PM)

quote:

The whole concept of "hate crimes" is idiotic.


Agreed. We should call them what they really are - thought crimes. We now punish people not just for their actions but for the thinking that led to those actions. It is gotten away with because the thoughts in question are ones decent people truly find repugnant and nobody wants to give the appearance of supporting or defending racists, anti-gay bigots, etc. But it is still a very dangerous precedent. It also devalues some people in favor of others. That mob committed a crime, plain and simple. Motivations are relevant in the investigation of a crime but they should not be relevant in the punishment once conviction is achieved. The only thing that should be relevant is the unjust taking of another human life.



FatDomDaddy -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 9:14:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

While Mr Morales was Hispanic and his attackers were black, police said they did not believe the attack was racially motivated.

"This wasn't a hate crime," Cdr Piatt said. "This wasn't a racist crime. There is absolutely no reason to think race had anything to do with this."

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21942632-5005961,00.html



What dream world is Cdr Platt living in???

Of course race had something to do with this!!!



Archer -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 9:21:52 PM)

Wow the use of the word Lynched was so out of context here.
Lynching has a very specific meaning and nothing in the story even related to a lynching.
Angry mob beats man and angry mob lynches man have two entirely different meanings.

Talk about sensationalizing a "headline" and folks wonder why the respect of the press has lessened.



FatDomDaddy -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 9:34:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Wow the use of the word Lynched was so out of context here.
Lynching has a very specific meaning and nothing in the story even related to a lynching.
Angry mob beats man and angry mob lynches man have two entirely different meanings.


Ummm...

It's the classic text book definition of the words lynch and lynch mob.



selfbnd411 -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 9:37:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Wow the use of the word Lynched was so out of context here.
Lynching has a very specific meaning and nothing in the story even related to a lynching.
Angry mob beats man and angry mob lynches man have two entirely different meanings.

Talk about sensationalizing a "headline" and folks wonder why the respect of the press has lessened.


The press didn't use the word "lynched," I did.  IMO it applies, because a lynching is a mob taking "justice" into its own hands.  In many cases lynchings were supposed to be expedited justice for criminal offenses, even when such offenses were social constructs such as a man "raping a woman with his eyes."  However, I think that the word applies because the object of lynching is not actually to punish a crime; it's a mob using violence to intimidate a segment of the population.

In the peak era of lynchings (1877-1940) they were used against blacks to maintain segregation.  We don't know enough about this case, but this could be a case of a black crowd using mob violence to ward off Hispanics.  Punishing the vehicle's occupants through violence might have been the pretext, but the motive could have been more complex.  We don't know that, but I can't imagine why the police would immediately dismiss the possiblity of it.



fairerthanshe -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 9:37:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

While Mr Morales was Hispanic and his attackers were black, police said they did not believe the attack was racially motivated.

"This wasn't a hate crime," Cdr Piatt said. "This wasn't a racist crime. There is absolutely no reason to think race had anything to do with this."

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21942632-5005961,00.html



What dream world is Cdr Platt living in???

Of course race had something to do with this!!!


Based on the interviews with some of the witnesses on the local news this evening, I would have to disagree with this line of thinking.  I do not believe this was a racially motivated attack.  It was an angry crowd responding in a violent manner to an apparent tragedy.

well wishes ~ fairer



slaveboyforyou -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 9:41:37 PM)

quote:

Wow the use of the word Lynched was so out of context here.
Lynching has a very specific meaning and nothing in the story even related to a lynching.
Angry mob beats man and angry mob lynches man have two entirely different meanings.

Talk about sensationalizing a "headline" and folks wonder why the respect of the press has lessened.


No, I can see this as being a lynching.  It was a extrajudicial killing, and lynching isn't confined to hanging someone. 



FatDomDaddy -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 9:42:22 PM)

A lynching is the punishment of presumed crimes and/or offenses usually by death, though not always without due process of law. This is most often carried out by angry mobs.

Which is exactly what happend here.



slaveluci -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 9:45:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Wow the use of the word Lynched was so out of context here.
Lynching has a very specific meaning and nothing in the story even related to a lynching.
Angry mob beats man and angry mob lynches man have two entirely different meanings.
Talk about sensationalizing a "headline" and folks wonder why the respect of the press has lessened.

Archer,
Not to nitpick, but the definition as found in the Merriam-Webster online dictionary of "lynch" is as follows:
Main Entry: lynch [image]http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif[/image]
Pronunciation: 'linch
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: lynch law
: to put to death (as by hanging) by mob action without legal sanction.
 
Even though hanging is the most common method of lynching, I think, it seems the fact that the mob beat him to death without legal sanction does indeed fit the definition of lynching.  Either way, it scares me to death that people can get so violent so easily, especially when the child's injuries were not life-threatening.  As others have said, if the races had been different, this would have been touted as the worst hate crime in years.  The whole thing is nauseating.........slave luci




popeye1250 -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 11:27:50 PM)

You can't have a lynchin' without a rope.
Oh, and there has to be some type of formal meeting to get the "mob" riled up before the lynchin.
That's "pre-meditation."
This sounds like it was obviously spur-of-the-moment.
No rope, no meeting equals no lynchin'.
Simple assault.



Lordandmaster -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/20/2007 11:59:10 PM)

I agree that it was not quite the same thing as lynching because it doesn't seem to have been premeditated or racially motivated.

But it was just as deadly.



popeye1250 -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/21/2007 1:33:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I agree that it was not quite the same thing as lynching because it doesn't seem to have been premeditated or racially motivated.

But it was just as deadly.


Yeah it was.
You can't hit a guy over the head with a lead pipe and call that a lynching.
And you need a "mob" probably more than 10 people but all the "mobs" I've seen in old movies looked like thay had at least 100 people.
I don't think race would really matter.
The alledged crime would be the motivating factor I think.
"Rape?" "Lynch him!"
"Child Molestation? Lynch him!"
"Bank Robbery? Good, he got over on the establishment!"
"No punishment!"



LadyEllen -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/21/2007 2:38:12 AM)

Going by my experience of UK hate crime, this would be very difficult to classify as a hate crime, which is a crime motivated by hate for a particular group. In this instance, it would seem apparent that it was motivated by anger at the collision, combined with the presence of a large crowd that was partied up. One must also take into account that with the victim (or at least his mother) living in the vicinity of the incident, that were the motivation based on hate for another group, she could be expected to have been attacked absent this collision, and from what I read she wasnt.

In the UK though, it is treated as a hate crime should the victim or a witness report it as such. And if it is established that a crime was committed for the reason of hate, the punishment is exacerbated above the normal for the crime itself. This sends a signal that such motivations will not be tolerated. Albeit that we have no space in the prisons anyway so its all a bit academic. The reason our reporting is as it is, is to get away from the situation where the offender merely has to say it wasnt a hate crime in order to be clear on that count - reporting a hate crime means though that it is treated as such in investigation, with the onus being to disprove it. The witness reporting was brought in because many victims of hate crimes are unwilling to report at all.

E

PS - and one cant have a lynching without a rope. If lynching were just any violent mob justice then we wouldnt have the word lynch at all



Level -> RE: Man Lynched in Texas (6/21/2007 3:16:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

The whole concept of "hate crimes" is idiotic.


Agreed. We should call them what they really are - thought crimes. We now punish people not just for their actions but for the thinking that led to those actions. It is gotten away with because the thoughts in question are ones decent people truly find repugnant and nobody wants to give the appearance of supporting or defending racists, anti-gay bigots, etc. But it is still a very dangerous precedent. It also devalues some people in favor of others. That mob committed a crime, plain and simple. Motivations are relevant in the investigation of a crime but they should not be relevant in the punishment once conviction is achieved. The only thing that should be relevant is the unjust taking of another human life.


Very well said, Marc. When Governor Slick Hair was pushing the hate crimes bill here, that's when I knew he was a wad.



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