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Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 2:15:10 PM   
CrimsonMoan


Posts: 2652
Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Portland, Me via Las Vegas Nv
Status: offline 		As I sit here reading over Bush Vetoing the stem cell research AGAIN i get to think about all the people S.C research could help and how he is steadily throwing roadblocks in the way of science. Bush says he speaks for the American people when he doesn't. He's all for the adoption of unused frozen embryos to make what he has dubbed, "snowflake" children. Now you know what? There is nothign wrong with that on the one hand, but on the other it leaves already born children in the system without familes. The longer an embryo sits in cold storage the less likely it will be viable. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of unused FEs are dumped because they are no longer needed or storage availibility issues. Bush and those who agree with him in the goverment havve said they woudl rather see them tossed out like yesterday's garbage than used to possibly find cures for alzhiemer's, hodgkin's, and other diseases. Hel the use of stem cells and frozen embryos have even been refered to as another form of abortion.

I just wan to see where everyone else stands on this one. I think my stance is pretty clear. I don't ever try and wish harm on anyone especially those who have shown themselves time and time again inneed of broader thinking but god forbid any of the diseases that could potentionally be cured or treate dmore effectively by stem cell's embryonic cells, etc befall himon anyone close to him
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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 2:27:13 PM   
sublimelysensual


Posts: 298
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Status: offline 		I feel the same way, Crimson. I have a daughter with a terminal genetic illness that could definitely benefit from stem cell research. It burns me that embryos are destroyed that could be being used to benefit her, as well as tens of thousands (if not more) other children and adults with these types of diseases. I'm going to stop there, simply because this isn't a topic to get me started on -laughs-....
 
-a

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 2:34:12 PM   
CrimsonMoan


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From: Portland, Me via Las Vegas Nv
Status: offline 		awww come on. its good to let it out. I also forgot to add that many of the  parents 'owners' watever you want to call them of said frozen embryos are more than willing to donate them to research. most often as we have seen in the news they get all the kids if now more they could ever want in one go. Others do it two, or three times with positive result and still have excess sitting around. Personally I feel if they want to help mankind, who the hell is bush to stop them?

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 3:06:47 PM   
SirRober


Posts: 364
Joined: 1/2/2006
Status: offline 		I agree I think that science being science should be allowed to travel however the person wants to take provided there is no danger to any current life on this planet. <---loophole  1 unless the plant/animal is spefically grown for testing so as not to endanger other life.

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 3:17:32 PM   
SlND3R3LLA


Posts: 118
Joined: 6/19/2007
Status: offline 		I have debated this in my head a million times.  I don't believe in abortion, and I do believe that life begins at conception.  I have read a lot about it and still can't fully put myself on either side of the fence.  My loving Master has a disease that can be helped by this research a lot.  I will have to watch him get worse over the years if something isn't found to change things. 

I find my heart torn in both directions.  They can use stem cells from afterbirth and things like that, I totally agree with that.  It's just the embryo's I am not sure on.  I know in my head they will be thrown away...that seems more unjust than to use them to help other human beings.  I suppose I just have this fear that they will grow them just for this purpose, if one part is allowed to happen.

It probably doesn't help that I want a child so very bad, and I know that all of these babies will go to "waste" (bad choice of words, but I couldn't find another one).

I love my Master/husband very much, and I want him around for the rest of my life.  I also don't want to see him go through needless pain, sickness, and brain issues.  How can I turn my back though on something I believe?  Yes, he is enough to make me change my mind, but that would make me a hypocrite.  In the back of my mind I don't think it would be true to who I was. 

If they could use the stem cells from other resources, I have no problem at all.  It's just the whole unborn child thing that bothers me.  The more I think about it, the more confused I get.  It pains me to have the thoughts I have, I feel like I betray my Master in doing so.

I have just babbled on..I hate that.  I guess you can all see I am very confused.

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 3:32:59 PM   
CrimsonMoan


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From: Portland, Me via Las Vegas Nv
Status: offline 		No berating you at all but considering the extra man power that would be required to have a team placed in EVERY hospital  that handles births would take years to fully man considering the number of people in medical school and how long it takes to be qualified for these things. Not to mention the upswing of home births as of late. I hate that you feel conflicted and even i am ready to admit this is not black and white but a very muddy grey. I guess one way of looking at it is that the longe they sit the more they will eventually deterorate and still end up as medical waste. *shrugs* 

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 4:46:16 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlND3R3LLA

It's just the whole unborn child thing that bothers me. 



An unborn fetus is not viable (able to survive) until it is several months old.  Does this qualify as a child?  Given time and a fertile place to mature, it might become a child.  However, I read somewhere that it is estimated that at least 1/3 of all in utero fertilizations spontaneously abort in the first few weeks, for any number of reasons including genetic anomalies, environmental impacts, etc.

As far as the "snowflake" baby thing.  When a couple goes to in for in vitro fertilization, the doctors harvest 5-8 eggs from the woman or the donor woman.  These are then fertilized.  Three are pumped into the mother to see if they will implant into the uterine wall.

If the woman becomes pregnant, the other eggs are stored until they are no longer viable, and thrown out.

If one does the math, in order to use all snowflake baby eggs would require 1-2 women to be implanted with the 2-5 eggs not used for each woman who goes in for in vitro.  I dont see many pro-lifers running down and offering their wombs to care for all these fertilized eggs.  While I imagine they each individually have some reason for this, Evil (embryos being killed by doctors, according to them) flourishes when Good (being pro-lifers according to them) people do nothing.

Basically, pro-lifers are using the whole pro-choice logic to choose not to save all these fertilized human embryos.

Sinergy

p.s. Interesting that this is AnencephalyBoy's logic.  Tim Dickinson in Rolling Stone last issue referred to him as "Clueless In Chief."  I personally have enough examples of his idiocy.

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 5:32:10 PM   
SlND3R3LLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlND3R3LLA

It's just the whole unborn child thing that bothers me. 



An unborn fetus is not viable (able to survive) until it is several months old.  Does this qualify as a child? 


Yes, it does.  That is the main difference between pro-life, or pro-choice stands.  It's saying that a baby exists at this point, but not that...seconds before it didn't, all of the sudden it does.  That to me isn't very logical.  It's like saying that because someone needs machines to help them live is no longer a person, just because they can't survive without help.  You of course won't agree with me, this is how I know it is, but that is how you know it is.   I will agree to disagree on that part of it.

Like I stated, it is probably more unjust to just throw an embryo away that is too old to use, or that won't be used rather than use it to help someone, like my Master. 

As to whether every single pro-life person would put them in their wombs to take care of them... I can't speak for every one of them.  I will speak for myself and say I would love to take a few off of someones hands, but due to cost, I can't afford to have the procedure done.

I don't know that I can ever see this issue as black and white, there are too many different things involved for me to get to that point.  I will say that I am more open to researching it and keeping an open mind than I have been in the past.  It is still going to be touchy for me either direction regardless.
 



_____________________________

And in that moment, everything I knew to be true about myself up until then was gone. I was acting like another woman, yet I was more myself than ever before. ~F

To hell with diamonds, lube is a girls best friend ;)

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 5:56:09 PM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		Well I think both sides are also exaggerating this a bit. This is not a miracle cure for every disease out there. And sometimes people who support this research claim this and make all these promises. The people against this also claim to be completely against the idea claiming it destroys life. Well, in many circumstances, these embryos get tossed in the trash anyway.

There is a lot about these diseases that we don't know much about....especially diseases of the brain. In Alzheimers, Parkinsons, or Lou Gehrig's, brain cells just start to die for what seems to be no reason at all. Now the theory is that you can replace those cells with Stem Cells, but that doesn't gurantee that the disease is cured. Chances are those cells will start to die as well in a matter of time. Also with Alzheimer's, memory is what is dying. Once those cells are dead, the memories are gone forever. When you regenerate new cells with stem cells, you can create new memories, but the old memories are gone.

I think the answer to solving those serious brain diseases are in genetics. If we can find a way to find the flaws in the genetic codes that lead to these diseases, fix those flaws, and then recreate them in stem cells, then that may be an effective treatment. But we are 30-50 years away from being able to do that. And that kind of research will raise even more ethical debates because then we truely will be playing god.

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 6:02:35 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		.....a rare occasion where we broadly agree Cyberdude.....although i am a little more hopeful about the prospects of the spin off from stem cell research. After all, a band-aid is better sometimes than no intervention at all.
As for the long term, you may well be right. Although your time estimate may shorten dramatically as other advances make what seems now impossible, possible. Same thing happened with the estimates of the human genome project's timescale.

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 6:33:59 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlND3R3LLA

As to whether every single pro-life person would put them in their wombs to take care of them... I can't speak for every one of them.  I will speak for myself and say I would love to take a few off of someones hands, but due to cost, I can't afford to have the procedure done.



I was in a relationship where I researched this extensively.

While I understand your issue, and you have my support and condolences or whatever the appropriate emotion is, I find it curious that pro-life organizations would not put their money where their mouth is to provide you with a snowflake embryo to bring to conception and raise as your own.

I wish you success in getting it done.  If there is a will there is a way, and while I support a woman's choice over what to do with her body, I abhor waste.

Sinergy

_____________________________

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 6:51:03 PM   
uwinceismile


Posts: 365
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline 		interesting topic.
i believe that we live in a free market economy. if the medical field, with its vast amount of money. was sure they could make a difference(read: make money from finding a cure) ,as so many of you are. they would fund these projects themselves oversea's.
i honestly believe that this is more hype then scientific fact.
the fact that they dont do this, says to me that they arent nearly as sure of the outcome as many here would like to believe. (and i want them to be able to do this) i want to see a cure for many diseases that friends of mine have , and people that i know. but in all honesty, the medicine practiced today is incredible compared to hundreds of yrs ago, but its still in its infancy as compared to what they dont know, and cant do. i know, thats an argument for more and better research. but why must the american taxpayer foot the bill. when the profits from any drug or treatments, will go straight to the big drug companies? if they think they can find a cure for cancer via these means,(and who would know better then they)? let there r&d facilities build the labs overseas,and get busy. i wonder why they  dont?:(
best of luck to the folks who posted here, and to the friends and loved one we all know who could possibly be helped by this process.

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 7:51:04 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

but why must the american taxpayer foot the bill. when the profits from any drug or treatments, will go straight to the big drug companies?


....a lot of interesting points in your post, Uwinceismile, but isn't Bush's recent decision basically just about making it illegal for this research to happen at all, as opposed to withdrawing funding? Also, on this issue as in so many other areas, US decisions knock on to other areas where the medical research industry could do this work? Although it was about economics, it was once said that 'when American sneezes, Europe catches a cold'.....the recent decision by Bush makes it more difficult world-wide to do such research. Funding is another issue entirely. 

[edited in an embarrassed way for getting your name wrong, sorry]

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 8:08:08 PM   
sublimelysensual


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Status: offline 		Original Post: uwinceismile

quote:

but why must the american taxpayer foot the bill. when the profits from any drug or treatments, will go straight to the big drug companies?


My daughter has Cystic Fibrosis and is on medicaid, as are many other children/adults with this disease. Insurance is great except that it has a cap, our insurance cap was one million..had my ex not been laid off, that may have lasted ten years, if we were lucky. So the american public already is paying for it, probably more than you realize. Her medications alone, without Dr's appts, etc, run about $8000 a month. Would you rather foot those bills for the next 30 or so years, or put your money toward finding a cure?
 
  Now, the companies that produce her meds (there are two that do most CF meds, drug companies don't exactly jump at the chance to serve 30,000 or so people), both pour large amounts of money into new drug therapy research to help improve the quality of life/ cure CF. My understanding is that a lot of the companies do this for other diseases as well.
 
    Someone else mentioned genetic research, and that's equally important. The genes that cause CF have been found, and there's even been work on transporting the corrected genetic info needed to the applicable genes, but a large part of that is more than likely going to come from stem cell research, simply because they've been unable to find a way to transport the corrected genes into the body without rejection, complications, etc; and stem cells could probably do so. I realize I've simplified a lot, but, wanted to make it understandable to the layperson. At any rate, just one more reason it's so important...
 
-a

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 10:43:51 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Why don't the drug companies pay for the stem cell research? First off some of them do however this is an entirely new field of study. A certain amount of basic research will have to be put into stem cells before any sort of viable treatment is developed. At present we are limited to putting stem cells into some part of the body and hoping the bodies own regulatory systems cause the stem cells to develop into differentiated cells appropriatye for that area. AIUI this has had very limited success and simply doesn't result in enough new cells producing dopamine or insulin or whatever to cure the patient.

This basic research is going to cost billions and take years if not decades. Drug companies and biotech firms may try and take up the slack but basic research with no product even under development is a very hard sell at the quarterly stockholders meeting. The US government has the NIH which is set up to do precisely this sort of research. The NIH quietly worked away for decades working on cancer and we are now reaping the rewards for the greatly expanded knowledge of cancer our tax dollars paid for.

Life begins at conception. That is a very strange statment that begs far too many questions but let's try these on for size. Should a woman who miscarries be prosecuted for manslaughter? What should be done in the case of ectopic pregnancy? Murdering the infant to save the mother is completely illegal under the theory that conception = life however the infant will certainly die when the mother dies due to the ectopic pregnancy. What about quadruplet or more pregnancies? A doctore will tell you that the best way to bring at least some of the fetuses to term is to abort enough of the fetuses to allow the rest to develop to a more mature level prior to birth. Should these pregnancies doom many if not most of the children to short lives in IC units?

A far more rational position is that life begins when the new person is able to survive independent of the gestational environment.

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/21/2007 11:36:33 PM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlND3R3LLA

It's just the embryo's I am not sure on.  I know in my head they will be thrown away...that seems more unjust than to use them to help other human beings.  I suppose I just have this fear that they will grow them just for this purpose, if one part is allowed to happen.


I didn't quite understand what you meant in describing your fear...that they will "grow them just for this purpose". Are you concerned they would try to grow the stem cells into a human being? That would defeat the purpose. Science would only use embryos as the cellular level. But I have a feeling I'm misunderstanding your concern.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoan

No berating you at all but considering the extra man power that would be required to have a team placed in EVERY hospital  that handles births would take years to fully man considering the number of people in medical school and how long it takes to be qualified for these things.


Are you referring to cultivating stem cells from cord blood? If so, having additional trained personnel wouldn't be required. Stem cells from cord blood can be preserved until they reach the research lab that would use them. Also, stem cells from cord blood don't have the same potential as embryonic stem cells.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
I think the answer to solving those serious brain diseases are in genetics.


But that's exactly what embryonic stem cell research is all about. These cells have the potential to turn into any type of cell that exists in the body. By figuring out what the various genetic on and off switches are that make these cells eventually differentiate into a specific cell line, scientists can learn more about what switches get turned on and off in cells that become diseased and determine a means of turning the switch off (in those cases where a disease causes it to be turned on).









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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/22/2007 5:06:20 AM   
aviinterra


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Status: offline 		Having worked in this field, I can honestly say that even if stem cells had great potential ( and this is an if, because frankly most researchers have no clue as to what they are doing with this ), that potential would still not be released to the public for a very long time. As someone here mentioned, this is a free market economy- drugs are made not to cure, but to create profit. It would not make sense for a drug company to create a single pill cure for say cancer. All of the sudden their products for chemo are useless, the oncologists can't find work, and the industry is losing billions. While I worked for a pharma co., this is exactly what they did- promising ideas were often taken off the board because they would not produce profits or would not require the patient to purchase a second and sometimes third drug to combat those side effects. The average scientist is not as good hearted as you all might think, and their concerns are not a dying child in Africa, but the average American's money and recognition in the trendy journals. To actually have honest medicine and research, you would have to take money out of the equation, something that is almost impossible right now.  

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/22/2007 6:59:40 AM   
CrimsonMoan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoan

No berating you at all but considering the extra man power that would be required to have a team placed in EVERY hospital  that handles births would take years to fully man considering the number of people in medical school and how long it takes to be qualified for these things.


Are you referring to cultivating stem cells from cord blood? If so, having additional trained personnel wouldn't be required. Stem cells from cord blood can be preserved until they reach the research lab that would use them. Also, stem cells from cord blood don't have the same potential as embryonic stem cells.

quote:



I know cord blood doesn't have the same potential outsid of use for immediate family memebers. As for the extra staffing i meant for the scale she was refering to, in the use of collecting cord blood. And considering how man kids are born on any given day in the US that does mean extra arm out there making sure the cord blood makes it by courier to the research facility. I've had a ton of literature given to me when i was pregnant on the subject. I would figure maybe one in 4-5 births inside of a hospital lead to cord blood being saved. And increase alone would require more people transporting because more people on shifts would be needed. So maybe not trained personal but more people none the less.

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/22/2007 8:57:13 AM   
LotusSong


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Status: offline 		I say, ask the embryo if they want to be born into a world of pain and indifference or if they want to be the cure for disease without having to go through the heartbreak of mortal existance.  I would want the latter for my "child".
 
I, too, have a disease that this research would benefit. 

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RE: Frozen Embryos and Stem Cells - 6/22/2007 9:04:46 AM   
CrimsonMoan


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From: Portland, Me via Las Vegas Nv
Status: offline 		Cyber i agree there may be some exageration but you know what? We won't know what cures we will or won't find unless the science is allowed to move forward

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