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RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 9:27:56 PM

ChainedExistence

Posts: 507
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline

Because Boxing and Cooking aren't a personal/sexual relationships???
Casual relationships are fine...for those who understand exactly what they are getting into. But here's where I think it crosses the line. Let's say I am newbie curious, and I start a conversation with DomAlmighty (made up name, so apologies if there is a DomAlmighty online!)who convinces me that he is going to school me in all things BDSM. Now you might say I should know better, but let's be real here-these types usually prey on that frenzy that new subs often feel. Inexperienced players often feel like there's a sort of " secret knowledge" that all "good subs" know, and with all the special terminology and lingo we all throw around here, why wouldn't they think that? Mr. Wonderful , of course, isn't into relationships...so he disappears leaving little miss sub feeling the slap of reality. You can't say you haven't seen that here a million times. Unfortunately what these new subs can't predict are the feelings that some of this activity might bring up. Anyone playing casually should already know they can stay detached, but you can't expect someone who has never played before not to attach themselves to the "trainer." Now, if I am going to call myself a trainer, I have to know there's a pretty good chance of that happening. Do I just say, " too bad, I told her not to get attached?" Is that being responsible? I'd like to say the sub is just as responsible, but if that's the case , why is it that these trainers always go for the new subs?

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 101

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 9:32:42 PM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

Noah,

Thank you for pointing this out. i have been wondering the same thing. The word "play" can have different connotations and i don't see how most of those connotations would be considered wrong or bad. It would be a big help it someone could explain in what way "play" could be considered wrong.

In my case, the trainer i went to had a slave who he lived with and i never once had a session with him that his slave wasn't present. There were times when my training consisted of observing his slave and him interacting and other times where she and i interacted with each other at his direction and other times where it was just him and i interacting but, while his slave was present. It was never just the trainer and me, alone.

Call it play or anything else but, it was never anything more or less than a trainer-trainee relationship and there was never anything that went beyond what i wanted, expected, and intended to get from my training. i came out of it feeling much more secure in my submissiveness. i don't see how that could be viewed by anyone as being a negative thing, even if it's called "play".

As far as i'm concerned, there is a legitimate place and need for trainers in BDSM, just as there is a legitimate place and need for fitness trainers and other such trainers. i mean, i know how to do a push-up and can bicycle all day long but, there have been times when going to a fitness trainer helped me to improve my abilities to get the most from my fitness and that was a good thing. So why not within BDSM, as well?

____________
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
-- F. Nietzsche

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

I realize there are some who will say they had a "trainer" who didn't end up playing with them or TRYING TO, but I'm willing to bet Michael's 99.9% is pretty close. Hey, semantics as I said, if you have fun with what you do, more power to you. Training, advising, casual, suddenly decided the trainer was the one for you, or whatever.

I don't get this prudery which seems to keep cropping up in these conversations about training.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "play"--the term doesn't resonate very strongly with me. Still, I presume that having sadomasochistic interactions, sexual and otherwise, will tend to fall under that heading for you. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 102

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 9:41:23 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Again, I feel you are cherry picking. When I speak of risk I mean a sub attaching themselves to an idiot.

Maybe LA can list all the threads in which people have been promoting this practice of attaching oneself to an idiot. I've missed them all, but then there is an awful lot I don't read around here.

quote:

What is at risk is a Broken hearts and broken boundaries,

Yes. Those things are at risk. This true in any realtionship, training or otherwise, vanilla or kinky. Since this is the case I'm not sure why this is an argument against training but not an argument against all open-hearted human interaction.

quote:

but the potential upside is training that isn't all that useful.

Michael, there have been any number of thoughtful, detailed posts in these forums in which people have testified to the positive value that training experiences have had for them. But there you sit decreeing that "the upside of training just isn't all that useful."

But here you come to explain that these people were generally wrong about what has meaning and value in their life.

Are you willing to consider that what you find useful and what others find useful may not coincide?

quote:

What I think most here speak of when they refer to risk is like the risk I am taking in my current relationship. I am risking a broken heart but what I stand to gain is a life partner beyond my wildest dreams. That is a risk most of us would take because the reward is well worth the risk.

Michael, some people enter into training relationships specifically to limit their risk of a broken heart. They realize that coming to terms with their submisiveness and/or masochism will inevitably be a highly emotional experience. They want--as I explained a very short time ago--to bifurcate the processes of A. coming to terms with their seemingly innate tendencies and B. cultivating a stable romantic relationship.

So instead of looking for Mr. Wonderful Dom with whom to explore these regions and fall in love and buy a minivan they look for Mr. Wonderful Trainer Dom, with whom they can explore the emotions which may rise within themselves in BDSM interactions without the burden and complexity of simultaneously dealing with creating and cultivating a marriage-like (choose your simile if that one doesn't suit) relationship.

That is to say that a training relationship can just as well limit the risk of a broken heart as increase that risk.

quote:

quote:

Second, my question to you: if the very thing a person wants to succeed at is to explore her own relationship with her submissiveness in an active experiential way, outside the confines and demands of a romantic relationship, what are these more-likely-to-be-successful and less risky "paths" to which you refer?

Oh I don't know, going to a party and watching and talking to people. Saying "hey, you are good with a flogger, would you mind flogging me for a bit"...as opposed to Mr. Trainer saying "suck my cock and I will show you how the ancient house of dipshitdom does flogging"

No, Mike, not as opposed to your preposterous straw-man "Mr. Trainer" example which no one has ever argued in favor of. As opposed to a carefully considered, deeply engaged relationship with a dominant who has had plenty of experience in just what the potential trainee seeks, and whose goals and intentions are highly complimentary and resonant with her own.

So if her goal is to "explore her own relationship with her submissiveness in an active experiential way," then one of the preferable paths is to go to a party and watch and talk to people?

Okay, that's one suggestion.

And you really think that she has a better chance of success in "exploring her own relationship with her submissiveness" with a quick croppng from a stranger at a party than by the sort of engagement I just described?

Well maybe there are some cases where you're right. Who knows?

Maybe the length and breadth of some particular person's submissiveness could indeed be surveyed and mapped in a few impersonal sensation experiments with strangers who are doing her bidding with a crop without asking a single thing from her.

What an interesting sort of submissiveness that would be to explore. In fact is seems to me that it could a valid little foray into one's masochism but I hardly see what a person could learn about her submissiveness by having strangers do her bidding. What do you learn about your submissiveness by unabashedly and consensually topping from the bottom of an isolated bit of sensation play?

Where you come from that may count as the pinnacle of "explor(ing) her own relationship with her submissiveness in an active experiential way." Doesn't happen to be how we roll up in dis piece.

But hey, rock on.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 103

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 9:57:04 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I am equally interested in what subs feel are tranferrable skills that work with every dominant. I'm talking about specific skills that trainers provide them that are universal.

Katy, you and Mike are the StrawMan twins here.

I have yet to read anyone suggesting that there is some perfect, complete, universal traing regimen. Yet in thread after thread you argue against this position that no one has ever taken, as far as I know.

What is up with that?

And as others have said, there is so much more to life than technical skills. Sure I can teach people some skills, some of them very poular, some less so. Does that fact that for some dom somewhere one particular skill will be unappreciated mean that experiential training of any kind is hopeless in all times and places?

If you had read my earlier posts to this and other related threads recently you'd have seen various examples of non-skill-based results that can accrue from a training relationship. "Transferable" results. Similarly, if you had read any of a numebr of posts in which submissives testified to the value and utility of training in their lives you would now have a range of examples of "transferables" (skills or other things.) That you choose again and again to ignore all of that effort in your responses makes me doubt theat there would be any point in saying all the same things over to you.

At this point I have the impression that you would rather cling to your prejudgement at all costs than to admit that--based on the experiences of both reasonably credible strangers and people you know personally and otherwise trust--your prejudice may not account for the entire range of possibilities.

Let me ask you this: whether in kinky or vanilla relationships, did you never, ever gain an insight in one relationship which served you well in a subsequent one?

If you ever, even once, learned something in one relationship that was "transferable" to another realtionship, then why do you constantly issue this refrain that no one else ever can or has or will?

Or is it that you people can only learn things when they aren't setting out to learn? Is it that people can learn all sorts of things "by accident", as it were, but that intentional learning is impossible?

I'm not being rhetorical. I would sincerely appreciate your considered response.

Thanks.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 104

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 9:58:41 PM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

LOL..this gets to be hilarious. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree or all the bandwidth is going to be used up in random crabbiness. Everyone do what feels right.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 105

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 10:01:16 PM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

Sometimes, students get emotionally/sexually attached to their teachers, and sometimes, patients get emotionally/sexually attached to their doctors, and sometimes, soldiers get emotionally/sexually attached to their sergeants or officers, and sometimes, secretaries and office workers get emotionally/sexually attached to their bosses, etc., etc.

Sometimes, some people get emotionally/sexually attached to their best friend's husband or wife. It happens. It's a fact of life that isn't unique to BDSM and people somehow learn to deal with it. Sometimes it turns out beautifully and sometimes, someone gets hurt by it. Is it the teacher's fault, or the doctor's or the best friend's spouse's fault? Certainly, to some extent, it is. But, there are two people involved and they both have a say in what happens. i don't see how it's any different just because the two people involved are interacting in a BDSM-type, trainer-trainee relationship and one is a D and the other is an s.

Just my view on this. i could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.
____________
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
-- F. Nietzsche

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainedExistence

Because Boxing and Cooking aren't a personal/sexual relationships???
Casual relationships are fine...for those who understand exactly what they are getting into. But here's where I think it crosses the line. Let's say I am newbie curious, and I start a conversation with DomAlmighty (made up name, so apologies if there is a DomAlmighty online!)who convinces me that he is going to school me in all things BDSM. Now you might say I should know better, but let's be real here-these types usually prey on that frenzy that new subs often feel. Inexperienced players often feel like there's a sort of " secret knowledge" that all "good subs" know, and with all the special terminology and lingo we all throw around here, why wouldn't they think that? Mr. Wonderful , of course, isn't into relationships...so he disappears leaving little miss sub feeling the slap of reality. You can't say you haven't seen that here a million times. Unfortunately what these new subs can't predict are the feelings that some of this activity might bring up. Anyone playing casually should already know they can stay detached, but you can't expect someone who has never played before not to attach themselves to the "trainer." Now, if I am going to call myself a trainer, I have to know there's a pretty good chance of that happening. Do I just say, " too bad, I told her not to get attached?" Is that being responsible? I'd like to say the sub is just as responsible, but if that's the case , why is it that these trainers always go for the new subs?

(in reply to ChainedExistence)

Post #: 106

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 10:13:24 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RaynaSub

Most of these skills are common sense for me.
To me you either are submissive and you want to submit.
Or you are not a submissive, and do not want to submit.
Then of course you have people that are only in this lifestyle when it
suits them to be in it.
: )

... and then of course there are those people who actually want to do other things than submit, like direct others on the job or in charitable work, to raise kids (by means other than submitting to them), to speak out against injustice when they experience it, rather than submit, submit, submit in all things. Meanwhile some of these people do wish to submit in certain large and important areas of their life. But of course you would not want any of these things because you "are submissive and you want to submit." Period.
I can therefore understand why it would be beyond you to appreciate that there could be gray areas between where one clearly wishes to submit and where one doesn't or hasn't yet learned how.

... and then you have people who have actually experienced being conflicted about a given thing, and recognize this, and are willing to face and address this. Can you imagine? Evidently not.

... and then you have people who have spent years developing habits of behavior which were wise and adaptive for the situations from which they came but who want to liberate themselves from those sorts of situations and and indeed liberate themselves from those deeply ingrained but no-longer adaptive or preferred habits.

... you occaisionally even come across people who have more than two dimensions, who see the world in all it's color and not just in black and white.

Kooky, huh?

(in reply to RaynaSub)

Post #: 107

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 10:20:49 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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Noah, I have always thought of you a being a very sharp cookie and I cannot believe that you wouldn't begin to grasp the concept that Michael and Katy are trying to get across.....All it takes is a rather naive sub and some "Dom" who is touting himself to be their BDSM spirit guide....They(the trainer) do not charge the sub for teaching them the knowledge that they will pass on to them(unlike any other teacher).....It must be that they are such an altruistic person that their actions are always going to be "above board."...This is an entire crock of shit. They are using the guise as being a teacher because they are not capable of approaching a woman with any honesty in regards to what are their actual intentions. The end result will be them hoping that they can wear her down and get them some.

I could be wrong, but it might be fun to try a little experiment...Why don't you create a profile ...You are a "newbie" looking for a non sexual encounter with someone that is knowledgeable that will show you the ropes(no pun intended) as to all that might be involved in the "lifestyle," and see what kind of responses you get.....Just for fun why not go the whole nine yards and make yourself a babe....I think you will change your tune immediately. I think very few folks out here are capable of maintaining and respecting the boundaries that would qualify them to engage and teaching someone wiitwd...One thing I imagine that we all have in common is that we are a rather sexually charged group....There are those that can and the rest teach.

For the majority this has little to do with teaching, but a veiled opportunity to get them some pussy they feel they could never obtain with a more straight forward approach.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 6/25/2007 10:29:34 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 108

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 10:28:44 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

their BDSM spirit guide.

That's the problem....I've yet to meet my BDSM spirit guide (aka: trainer).

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 109

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 10:30:22 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

I am your spirit guide.....Chief Cumabunch.

_____________________________

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 110

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 10:32:18 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Misrepresentation of what the trainer is after does bother me and the only way that can be determined is by the outcome. Since you quoted my (and Michael’s) 99.9% perceived statistic of trainers TRYING for more, I’ll also admit it could be wrong. I am sure there could be a greater percentage who NEVER TRY FOR MORE, but you have to admit the statistics seem to favor my view.

If we want to say in the middle of training that a change of mind has taken place, a realization that the trainer is who she wants or many other terms, fine, but you and I both know what has happened.

Here's what I know has happened with me.

The things you seem to be referring to as "trying for more" were not "more". They were--in every case where they occurred--structural to the training that was sought and provided. This was consensual and productive and meaningful for all parties involved.

You used the word nobility elsewhere. Do you (or don't you; I don't want to put words in your mouth) feel that training which which is intended from the outset to involve these things is less noble than training of some other sort?

If you're decrying guys who claim to offer some sort of "hands-off" training fully intending to violate the spirit of that, then I'll join you in decrying them.

Would someone please tell me, though, how they got to know what must be thousands of people all around the world who engage in BDSM training, and evaluated their relationships, and determined less than one of a hundred is anything but a lying asshole dealing with stupid submissives?

And all of these people who keep posting to these threads to say how valuable training was for them, for each one of them why aren't we seeing 99 posts about how "lying asshole trainers majorly fucked me over".

I have no doubt that assholes populate the trainer population just as well as any other population, and that they can and do do damage. But when someone quotes statistics like "99.9%" I get kind of curious about the sampling.

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 111

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 10:36:41 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

Everyone do what feels right.

I think that's what it comes down to. I would not be comfortable submitting to someone who brags about "training many subs", to me that's code for "I suck at forming relationships, but if I call it training, it sounds better." I have no interest in someone who just wants to train me. I guess if someone feels they need trained, good for them. I don't get it.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 112

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 10:40:34 PM

ChainedExistence

Posts: 507
Joined: 2/5/2005
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Maybe because it's embarrassing for smart people to admit they got screwed over?

< Message edited by ChainedExistence -- 6/25/2007 10:41:37 PM >

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 113

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 10:41:29 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

I have spoke with several naive women...Who thought their spirit guides were there to help until the moment they tried to fuck them....Most people avoid this type of scenario....They are smart enough to see the pitfalls....My little bit of imperical research is three out of three...100%....I don't do the clubs or dungeons....And neither did they(The subs I have spoken with). So maybe without the prying eyes of others the trainers felt more at ease to take advantage of their "pupils."...lol.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 6/25/2007 10:42:29 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 114

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 11:06:03 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Noah,

quote:

Can you, Steel--or anyone--explain what sort of hyper-conservative, puritanical, pleasure=sin point of view from which it is "wrong" for two consenting adults to engage in what you call play just in case it happens to be a training or mentoring relationship

Once again Noah, you are twisting this whole thing around to suit your stance. I am all for casual play.

Mike, I haven't said anything pro or con about casual play that I can recall. You persist in defending positions that no one is questioning, and attacking ones that no one is taking. That's weird, man.

What I was asking about was the notion that training, when it can be countenanced, must be pure and free of sexual or kinky interaction.

And I owned that as a subjective impression of mine and invited others to correct it if it was inaccurate.

Talk about twisting everything around on you, you poor thing.

quote:

It is the equivalent of saying that young women need to have casual sex or one night stands with you before they seek out a real relationship and that without it they are going to have trouble finding a real boyfriend.

What, exactly, is the equivalent of that?

Like when I spoke of real, live, particular grown women (you inserted the word "young") of my acquaintance who chose of their own accord to seek out an experienced person to help with their explorations of their own relationship with their submissiveness? When having come to this conclusion of their own accord before ever contacting me they did eventually contact me to discuss this possibility?

What this the equivalent thing to me demanding that every female age 18 or so has to fuck me or risk bad relationships?

Can you help me see that equivalence? Hell, can anyone see it besides mike, here?

Reread my post, mike. Unlike you I didn't generalize. I started with a subset of submissives specified by you. Those who have been having trouble choosing partners. I then marked out a subset of that group, and a subset of that group who were specifically submissives who had decided for themselves to address their exploration of their submissivness with a trainer. I was careful to note that there were plenty of people who could come to similar terms with their submissiveness by other means, and I stated what some of the other means might be.

And to you this is equivalent to generalizing across the group of "young women"?

What a fascinating notion of equivalence you labor under.

quote:

But clearly you are going to cling to your opinion regardless and have yet to offer anything up of substance so I am really getting bored with this.

Yeah. I'm clinging unreasonably to opinions. Like my opinion that for some people, under some conditions, carefully undertaken consensual training can be a fine thing. Just imagine anyone clinging to an opinion like that. No doubt anyone who buys into that is a stupid asshole too.

You're a fucking hoot lately. No shit.

Look Mike, you offerred that the very same people who seek out training might be the ones least likely to be good at choosing life partners. Not disputing that this could well be true in any number of cases I pointed out what I see as a class of cases where the sort of training you complain about might help some of these people be in a better position to choose partners wisely.

Then you twist that into an equivalence with me saying that young women have to fuck me. And then you accuse me of twisting things.

Jesus Christ. When we have disagreed before you have put up worthwhile, credible points to consider in support of your view and/or in opposition mine--both of which are fine ways to proceed.

Lately you just throw up this snotty drivel.

C'mon. Bring back the SimplyMichael who was so worth talking to.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 115

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 11:28:20 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainedExistence

Because Boxing and Cooking aren't a personal/sexual relationships???

Fair enough. But that's how analogies work, by pointing out similarities between things which are not identical.

quote:

Casual relationships are fine...for those who understand exactly what they are getting into.

I agree with this, but is has nothing to do with the sort of training I have been talking about. It is a serious matter that requires commitment and integrity on the part of all concerned.

quote:

But here's where I think it crosses the line. Let's say I am newbie curious, and I start a conversation with DomAlmighty (made up name, so apologies if there is a DomAlmighty online!)who convinces me that he is going to school me in all things BDSM.

Here we go again. Can someone please show me the ten-thousand doms who claim to be able to school newbies in "all things BDSM"? Cause really, I'll probably join you in teasing them. But what do they have to do with what I've been talking about?

quote:

Now you might say I should know better, but let's be real here-these types usually prey on that frenzy that new subs often feel. Inexperienced players often feel like there's a sort of " secret knowledge" that all "good subs" know, and with all the special terminology and lingo we all throw around here, why wouldn't they think that?

I'll buy all of that. And agree that it is a recipe for problems.

quote:

Mr. Wonderful , of course, isn't into relationships...so he disappears leaving little miss sub feeling the slap of reality. You can't say you haven't seen that here a million times.

I swear to you that I have never seen it once. I have honestly never seen a guy claim to be able to teach a newbie sub everything there is to know about kink and then then drop her. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it has happened, or that you have seen it some small number of times. But (without specifying cases; I don't want to embarrass anyone) can you in your own mind list a hundred, or even a dozen cases that fit this pattern?

I'm curious.

And a guy who is into training is categorically into relationships: training relationships. He may or may not be into other sorts of relationships too.

quote:

Unfortunately what these new subs can't predict are the feelings that some of this activity might bring up. Anyone playing casually should already know they can stay detached, but you can't expect someone who has never played before not to attach themselves to the "trainer."

I'm sure you're right that many of these people fail to predict these things. But what you should admit is that many of them very much DO predict these feelings and that this is the biggest piece of *why* they seek out a trainer. They want to deal with the feelings associated with their submission and/or masochism separate and apart from a love-relationship. I'm just saying that there area range of people out there doing a range of things wider than that which you describe.

Furthermore, there is no need to require detachment in a training relationship, any more than there is a need to require detachment in a consensual vanilla fling. Both parties can enter into it aware of and even desiring the full range of emotions that are predictable, and take responsibility for their own response to those feelings cognizant of the fact that the relationship is intended from the start to be finite in length.

quote:

Now, if I am going to call myself a trainer, I have to know there's a pretty good chance of that happening. Do I just say, " too bad, I told her not to get attached?" Is that being responsible? I'd like to say the sub is just as responsible, but if that's the case , why is it that these trainers always go for the new subs?

I think I've dealt with most of this. What so many people seem to fail to appreciate here is that although, yes, people can be naive and even self-destructive, they can also be wise and insightful. Even ..... <gulp> ... SUBBIES! Yes friends, the often stated rumors are true. Submissives, new or lod, are not a goup of brainless twits who need to be protected from themselves at all costs. Most of the ones I have known and know now are highly evelved, highly intelligent people quite capable of evaluating risks, evaluating trainers, evaluating paradigms and getting on with their lives.

And I'm sorry, your claim that "trainers always go for the new subs" is just patent false. Lots of instances of subs going to trainers are cases of experienced people who have had boundaries crossed and been hurt in non-training relationships. They choose to limit the number of uncontrolled variables so that they can find their groove in a safe environment, which any ethical trainer will strive to provide.

Thanks for raising a range of points that really advanced the discussion. I hope you find my comments in response worthwhile.

(in reply to ChainedExistence)

Post #: 116

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 11:30:10 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

As far as i'm concerned, there is a legitimate place and need for trainers in BDSM, just as there is a legitimate place and need for fitness trainers and other such trainers. i mean, i know how to do a push-up and can bicycle all day long but, there have been times when going to a fitness trainer helped me to improve my abilities to get the most from my fitness and that was a good thing. So why not within BDSM, as well?

Why not, indeed?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 117

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 11:31:27 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

LOL..this gets to be hilarious. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree or all the bandwidth is going to be used up in random crabbiness. Everyone do what feels right.

I dunno. I like discussing ideas like this with the non-crabby people. Or even the crabs when they raise a good point.

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 118

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 11:42:19 PM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

It's baffling to me, that those of us who have stated that we have been involved in a trainer-trainee type of relationship, with very positive results, are simply ignored or discounted by those who condemn these types of relationships, without ever having had any involvement in one. i just don't get it. i guess some people have made up their minds that all trainer-trainee relationships are bad and nothing will get them to change their views on that, no matter how much firsthand testimony is given to the contrary.
i don't understand why trainers or the idea of a submissive seeking a trainer should be considered a universally bad thing. i would be suspect of any unsolicited offers from a "trainer" but, for a submissive to decide to seek a trainer's assistance, i don't see how that is, in and of itself, deemed to be wrong or stupid or unnecessary. i think that is for the submissive to decide on an individual basis.____________
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
-- F. Nietzsche

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 119

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/26/2007 12:19:07 AM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Noah, I have always thought of you a being a very sharp cookie and I cannot believe that you wouldn't begin to grasp the concept that Michael and Katy are trying to get across.....All it takes is a rather naive sub and some "Dom" who is touting himself to be their BDSM spirit guide....

Dude, I've never suggested that shitty people don't do shitty things. But I take issue with mike's claim that anyone who buys into training is stupid. And I take issue with Katy's claim that nothing can be learned in a training relationship that can be of benefit in a subsequent realtionship.

(and I think you're cute too)

quote:

They(the trainer) do not charge the sub for teaching them the knowledge that they will pass on to them(unlike any other teacher).....It must be that they are such an altruistic person that their actions are always going to be "above board."...This is an entire crock of shit.

I'll agree that that was an entire crock of shit. But only partly entirely.

I like to teach. I like to explore. I like to do kinky things. I like being trusted and worthy of trust and to be among trustworthy people. I get so fucking much reward from the training I do. I have no idea where I fall on the altruism scale but if in fact there isn't an altrustic bone in my pants, that's fine, because I benefit so richly from these experiences that it has been worth the tremendous investments of time, energy and emotion that I have put into them.

I've been laid a whole lot of times with a tasty selection of partners and I still love it as much as ever. It is easy to arrange for and as much fun as it is it can't go on continuously for months at a time. Whereas spidering around the warp and the woof of the training dynamic with really impressive women who are dedicated to honestly and openly exploring their kink and dedicated to me, temporarily, as a teacher, well that's a pleasure that can extend through every waking moment, involving all the intimacy and sex and vastly more intimacy besides--and I dig intimacy.

If I just used this to get laid it would be like using a jewelry store strictly as a place to buy glass-cutters.

quote:

They are using the guise as being a teacher because they are not capable of approaching a woman with any honesty in regards to what are their actual intentions. The end result will be them hoping that they can wear her down and get them some.

Hey. I'll bet this happens. AND I DON"T FUCKING CARE what other grownups do with other grownups to get their rocks off, consensually. I'm one of those wacky nuts who likes the idea of adults exercising their freedom with a sense of personal responsibility. So sue me.

The fact I'd like you to countenance is that--however often or rarely that bad stuff may happen-in other cases, for reasons related or unrelated to altruism, people can interact in very mutually rewarding ways that are left entirely out of your picture. That's all.

quote:

I could be wrong, but it might be fun to try a little experiment...Why don't you create a profile ...You are a "newbie" looking for a non sexual encounter with someone that is knowledgeable that will show you the ropes(no pun intended) as to all that might be involved in the "lifestyle," and see what kind of responses you get.....Just for fun why not go the whole nine yards and make yourself a babe....I think you will change your tune immediately.

Man I just don't put my energy into that kind of negativism and cynicism. I mean I think my share of negative and cynical thoughts, but to take time amd energy out of my life and invest it in what you suggest? That's fucked.

IMHO

quote:

I think very few folks out here are capable of maintaining and respecting the boundaries that would qualify them to engage and teaching someone wiitwd...One thing I imagine that we all have in common is that we are a rather sexually charged group....

Have you seen me argue that "most people are exemplary teachers"? No? That's because I never did. Most people are not exemplary teachers of tennis or Spanish, either. Strikes me as weak reason to be against teaching tennis or Spanish.

I think there are very few people who can play the trombone but I'm fucking glad as hell that lot's of people give it a try and a few of them get the hang of it because I don't want to live in a world without ska. Dig?

quote:

There are those that can and the rest teach.

And it has to devolve to this? Because we both know I train, so by your analysis this means I can't do. And by implication the various women who have been so important in my life and to whom I have had some importance as a trainer, they are all wannabes too?

Okay, man. If you say so. Who am I to doubt your unqualified appraisal of a lot of people you never met?

I was really hoping that your post was gonna be one of those ones that managed to stay above the level of name calling. You fucking pussy asshole.

quote:

For the majority this has little to do with teaching, but a veiled opportunity to get them some pussy they feel they could never obtain with a more straight forward approach.

Here is this fucking majority again. I'll ask you as I have asked the others, do you have infinite frequent flyer miles or what? How in the fuck do you manage to spend your life criss-crossing the globe interviewing (and condemning) such a large and diverse population of people?

But even if you are right about the majority. SO WHAT?

The majority of restaurants might be corporate chains with uninspiring crap on the plates. I don't give a shit. When I'm in the mood for Applebies I'll go there (theoretically, I mean; I never actually have been in that mood--though I do eat various kinds of junk food.)

Meanwhile the world is liberally sprinkled with terrific places to buy a meal.

Honest to shit, yo. Neither I nor anyone else is claiming that anyone can train anyone with perfeect, universal, transferable perfection. Neither I nor anyone else is saying that no men or women use the word training to position themselves for bad deeds. That this should happen is approximately inevitable given human nature, right?

It's like screaming that a cat caught a mouse. Who gives a rat's ass?

What's interesting to me is that, as in all regions of human experience, people of good conscience can and do sometimes excel. And I'll admit that I like to hang with people who spend more time attending to and celebrating that than bemoaning the sad state of the blah blah blah blah blah.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 120

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