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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/26/2007 5:06:21 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Masternslave07

There is a difference in pointing out an issue and exploiting the issue for your gain. That is what Michael Moore does. His agenda is to make America look bad and make a profit while doing it. It is funny that he never mentions the fact that if you subtract the numbers of illegal aliens that are in the US, the number of uninsured drops dramatically. He never mentions all the hospitals that are forced to close their doors because they can't afford to treat the hordes of illegals that swamp their emergency rooms. Anyone who lives in Southern California can attest to that.
If you really need healthcare in the US, you can get it. There are plenty of free clinics that do that. It isn't the best care, but I don't see how bringing everyone's healthcare down to that level is the solution. And that is exactly what universal healthcare would be.

Did you see the movie with slaveboyfor you?

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/26/2007 5:14:10 PM

QuietlySeeking

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Name one other industry where it is required by law to service anyone and everyone who walks through the doors whether or not they have the ability to pay.
(What would happen if Wal-Mart had to provide groceries to everyone, regardless of their ability to pay....how soon would Wal-Mart get out of the grocery business?)

Name one other industry that loses 1/10 of its revenues to uninsured or underinsured people.

Name one other industry who is criticized heavily because another industry (Insurance) is raising its rates by double digits annually and yet is trying to force discounts in double digits every time the contracts come up for renewal. (for those who weren't paying attention, that is a 20%+ swing in income to expense for certain insurance companies EACH YEAR).

Excuse me if I'm a bit "hostile" about this particular thread. I work for a hospital company and have watched from an insider's view the increasing amounts of money we invest in new technologies to reduce costs, increase patient safety, and generally be good corporate citizens, only to hear persons like Michael Moore deride the work of my co-workers.

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/26/2007 5:17:38 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Masternslave07

There are plenty of free clinics that do that.

The technical term for this is "universal health care."

The primary difference between this and what is proposed is the free clinic cannot negotiate with Big Pharma to come to an agreement to not have the government pay them $100 for a tablet for the patient that the Big Pharma scum make for pennies.

I have pointed out before, we currently have Universal Health Care. But the way it is currently set up makes the US Government and US taxpayers the bitch of the corporatocracy.

Fascinates me when some conservative types, on the one hand, talk about fiscal responsibility in Government, and trash efforts to legalize ways the Government can lower their operating costs.

Go figure.

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/26/2007 5:27:24 PM

dragone

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So what is so wrong with this Moore guy making a few bucks, producing and distributing his movie. It costs big bucks to make a movie. I mean, he's not like a...let's say...a president who ursurped his office, uses the country's tax dollars, spending to oblivion to wage an illegal war, and give out no bid contracts to his buddies.

More draws your attention to a problem, through his medium; that of film.....and in the hopes, the american people will wake up to how they are being exploited. So he makes some money, good for him; at least he is not killing people while doing it.....like some other we all know.

And his health is bad, so, that negates his product. He's a jerk...why? All he does is produce some very provocative footage, that certain people would rather have not known.

And...besides, what have you contributed lately, to the edification of the people of this country?

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/26/2007 5:32:50 PM

dragone

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so, what you are saying is...if you can't pay; then die.

You compare Wal-Mart to health care facility....apples to lemons.

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/26/2007 6:04:05 PM

SubinMaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

Name one other industry where it is required by law to service anyone and everyone who walks through the doors whether or not they have the ability to pay.
(What would happen if Wal-Mart had to provide groceries to everyone, regardless of their ability to pay....how soon would Wal-Mart get out of the grocery business?)

Name one other industry that loses 1/10 of its revenues to uninsured or underinsured people.

Name one other industry who is criticized heavily because another industry (Insurance) is raising its rates by double digits annually and yet is trying to force discounts in double digits every time the contracts come up for renewal. (for those who weren't paying attention, that is a 20%+ swing in income to expense for certain insurance companies EACH YEAR).

Excuse me if I'm a bit "hostile" about this particular thread. I work for a hospital company and have watched from an insider's view the increasing amounts of money we invest in new technologies to reduce costs, increase patient safety, and generally be good corporate citizens, only to hear persons like Michael Moore deride the work of my co-workers.

Bah...comparing Wal-Mart and Groceries to Health Care? You ARE joking...you must be...

We're not talking about buying a friggin' bag of Doritos here, we're talking about people's HEALTH.

Everyone, every last damn human being on this PLANET is entitled to health care regardless of the ability to pay....

So, families who's primary caregiver loses their job..no more insurance, they should suffer? Their children shouldn't get the immunizations they need? Think for a moment...no health care unless you can pay = children who are not immunized = diseases we no longer worry about DUE to immunization making a comeback = a whole mess of dying children and adults...because they didn't have health care.

i could give a rats - - - about the "strides" being made in the medical community, according to your logic, those strides wouldn't apply to me anyway, unless of course i have the ability to PAY for the use of those strides.

Insurance rates are doubling while the cost of living continues to increase and paychecks for the "every day workers" are not even CLOSE to catching up....

But that's ok, we'll just let the poor, the destitute, the elderly die off...because, well, they can't PAY /end sarcasm.

You know, i have no real "love" for Moore, i'm not a follower of his ideas and mindset, but i do know the difference between being humane and being elitist....and i must say, i am utterly floored by that line of thought...just my opinion, but i'm sticking to it...damn it.

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/26/2007 6:18:53 PM

instynctive

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What I think is absolute bullsh*t is the fact that if Senor Juan Illegal jumps the Rio Grand, sneaks into this country, then go and gets half-killed in a car wreck gets his ambulance ride and hospital bill free of charge, courtesy of the red white and blue, yet there are CITIZENS in this country who still have to make the decision between health insurance at ridiculous rates or "chance it" so they don't have to worry about where next month's mortgage is coming from....

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/27/2007 8:17:49 AM

dragone

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Hello;......so this guy, owns a puppy pit bull, friendly little critter, and his baby girl, is sitting outside, on the steps, crying, why, her mother had corrected her for not cleaning up her room; and there along side the girl, sits her little buddy, the pet bull. A mexican, filier distributor, you know, the guys who hang adverts on your door knobs, approaches the scene, with his filiers, the dog growls, and grabs the guys arm, as he reaches for the door knob. The guy screams, runs away, calls the cops, says the dog attacked him, and bit him on the arm. The skin was not broken, but the teeth marks were there.

So, the guy gets an attorney, sues the family, for a million or so bucks, petitions the dog to be put down.

The Family has a terrifically expensive court battle, must hock their house to the limit to pay the legal fees to defend themselves.

The filier guy, BTW, is an illegal alien; no papers, and barely speaks english; apparently good enough however, to get an attorney.

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/27/2007 1:01:27 PM

SanDieganMichael

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I find it humorous that at one point the Vice President of P.E.T.A. used animal Insulin … Good Old Pen & Teller BS program. I never knew they were that hypocritical.

I agree with the principal ... that animals should not be made to suffer needlessly. Does this mean no animal testing? Does this mean don't eat animals? Not even close, in my book.

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/27/2007 1:09:27 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

(What would happen if Wal-Mart had to provide groceries to everyone, regardless of their ability to pay....how soon would Wal-Mart get out of the grocery business?)

If only, QS, if only...

As for the 'poor' health industry, my heart bleeds for them.

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/27/2007 1:15:30 PM

kittinSol

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Because the man whose arm was bitten by the (obviously rabied or deranged) dog didn't have a work permit, he shouldn't have been able to sue the people that were responsible for the animal?

Come on: what exactly are you saying here? I would like you to spell it out.

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/27/2007 1:26:49 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

I work for a hospital company and have watched from an insider's view the increasing amounts of money we invest in new technologies to reduce costs, increase patient safety, and generally be good corporate citizens, only to hear persons like Michael Moore deride the work of my co-workers.

[my italics]

i think some people object to health care being treated as a corporate responsibility at all. Surely some things in life ought to be everyones responsibility (ie organised for everybody, not just for those with cash).....healthcare and health education being one of those things.

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/27/2007 1:48:56 PM

SubinMaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Because the man whose arm was bitten by the (obviously rabied or deranged) dog didn't have a work permit, he shouldn't have been able to sue the people that were responsible for the animal?

No disrespect intended, kittin, but in all honesty, i'd have to say yeah, that should (should being the operative word) sum it up nicely....

If you are not a citizen, and in the US without a work permit or visa (work or student) or under asylum, then you are here illegally. You are breaking the law. Criminals that are US citizens LOSE their rights when convicted. They are not allowed to profit from their crime.

In the above hypothetical (or not, i'm not too sure) situation, this person chose to break the law and, in doing so, got injured.

DUI's, perfect example..someone drinks and drives, breaks the law and gets hurt...they're not suing the people they hit, are they? Well, they may try but the case wouldn't get to the "expensive" stage before being thrown out.

And the dog doesn't necessarily have to be rabid or deranged...dangerous Pit Bulls are trained that way, not born...could it be the dog didn't know the stranger and was protecting the little girl? i have owned pit bulls...if they want to do damage, damage is GOING to occur...skin not broken but teeth indentations are visible? This is their warning...in all honesty, if the dog was vicious it wouldn't have stopped until that man's arm was shredded.

Again, no disrespect, just another view on the post *smile*

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/27/2007 1:53:55 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SubinMaine

If you are not a citizen, and in the US without a work permit or visa (work or student) or under asylum, then you are here illegally. You are breaking the law. Criminals that are US citizens LOSE their rights when convicted. They are not allowed to profit from their crime.

......are US criminals then fair game? Can anyone go up to some prisoners on a work crew and just shoot them with no fear of reprisals? Or when you say they lose all their rights you really mean just some of them? Committing an illegal act doesn't mean that all rights are suspended for anyone in most of the civilised world.

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/27/2007 2:03:23 PM

SubinMaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

.....are US criminals then fair game? Can anyone go up to some prisoners on a work crew and just shoot them with no fear of reprisals? Or when you say they lose all their rights you really mean just some of them? Committing an illegal act doesn't mean that all rights are suspended for anyone in most of the civilised world.

i apologize for not being more clear...i didn't mean all their rights, i used an incorrect medium to convey the point that they are not allowed to profit from their crime.

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/27/2007 2:08:32 PM

philosophy

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ORIGINAL: SubinMaine

...i didn't mean all their rights, i used an incorrect medium to convey the point that they are not allowed to profit from their crime.

......fair enough....but let me give you another example.....suppose a drunk driver knocks over and kills the child of an illegal immigrant. Is it profit to sue for medical expenses or just fair reparation?

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/27/2007 2:09:57 PM

dragone

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What?????? The dog was not derranged, it was not Rabid, it did not break the man's skin, and it barked, at the guy, the dog's owner was sitting along side, crying, because her mommy wanted her to clean up her room; why the guy persisted to the door, is beyond me. What are you talking about here, what rabid dog?????????

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/27/2007 2:21:37 PM

SubinMaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubinMaine

...i didn't mean all their rights, i used an incorrect medium to convey the point that they are not allowed to profit from their crime.

......fair enough....but let me give you another example.....suppose a drunk driver knocks over and kills the child of an illegal immigrant. Is it profit to sue for medical expenses or just fair reparation?

Argh, inner conflict going on here, i'll admit it. i'm a mom, have a HUGE soft spot for children.

Drunk drivers, in my opinion, are the lowest of the low anyway...and i have a moral dillema now because an innocent child is hit...but the childs parents are here illegally....and if they weren't the child wouldn't have been hit...but it's still a child and the parents are still parents and congratulations Philosphy...this will eat at me for a long time lol.

drat it all to heck and back *smile*

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/27/2007 2:25:37 PM

dragone

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What????? the guy was not on a work gang, and no one tried to shoot anyone, the dog was there, and if animals have the capacity to think, perhaps the sobbing girl, the stranger coming into the proximity of them, caused the dog to react, thinking it was protecting the girl; that is if animals have the capacity to think.

It was a pit bull.......think about that for a wee moment. Californians have a hate for this breed of dog; and have sought legistration to have the entire breed of dog exterminated entirely, to make the breed extinct.

I dunno, maybe I'm distorting it all to being ridiculous, but could it be, this guy saw a window of opportunity to make some serious money here, and could it just be, his american, licensed US citizen attorney saw some heavy duty dollars here should the case be won? I dunno, just speculating here.

I mean, this dog was not on leash, and released to.....Kill.., Bruno...Kill.

Where does this chain gang shooting prisoners willy nilly come from.

Of course the guy has rights, illegal here or not; it was not a case of employer exploitation or something like that, or that he was visiously attacked by a killer dog.

What the hell are you talking about?

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RE: PETA blasts Michael Moore - 6/27/2007 2:27:11 PM

QuietlySeeking

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SubinMaine

Bah...comparing Wal-Mart and Groceries to Health Care? You ARE joking...you must be...

We're not talking about buying a friggin' bag of Doritos here, we're talking about people's HEALTH.

Everyone, every last damn human being on this PLANET is entitled to health care regardless of the ability to pay....

So, families who's primary caregiver loses their job..no more insurance, they should suffer? Their children shouldn't get the immunizations they need? Think for a moment...no health care unless you can pay = children who are not immunized = diseases we no longer worry about DUE to immunization making a comeback = a whole mess of dying children and adults...because they didn't have health care.

i could give a rats - - - about the "strides" being made in the medical community, according to your logic, those strides wouldn't apply to me anyway, unless of course i have the ability to PAY for the use of those strides.

Insurance rates are doubling while the cost of living continues to increase and paychecks for the "every day workers" are not even CLOSE to catching up....

But that's ok, we'll just let the poor, the destitute, the elderly die off...because, well, they can't PAY /end sarcasm.

You know, i have no real "love" for Moore, i'm not a follower of his ideas and mindset, but i do know the difference between being humane and being elitist....and i must say, i am utterly floored by that line of thought...just my opinion, but i'm sticking to it...damn it.

Funny thing is, you made my point completely with this one statement. Insurance rates are doubling every couple of years. What you DON'T hear about is, the actual consumer cost for hospital procedures has either declined or remained steady for the last 10 years or so (at my company).

I'm not suggesting that "ability-to-pay" should be the requisite factor for providing healthcare. What I'm saying is, let's place blame where blame is due.

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