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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/26/2007 6:21:00 PM   
Viciousbabe


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I agree with what many of the others are saying. However, I have been in the situation where I thought I could trust some one and learned that they did not have the knowledge to truly guide me in that area. I will always try to listen to the Dom first, unless I can see or know that there is a risk to my health/mental wellbeing. At that point, I will go to him and tell him what is going on and offer information that i have that might help him in making a better decision for me. If he still puts my health in jeopardy, then it is at that point I begin to wonder why.

I do not believe in blindly following some one because they don't always know what is going on inside of me. If my Dom ever told me to have unprotected sex with some one who had stds, I would kindly refuse. I'd tell him why and if he did not like it, then we would have an issue. Whether my body is his or not, I personally do not believe it is his right to put me at risk for diseases that could potentially lead to death.

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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/26/2007 6:27:00 PM   
sweetnurseBBW


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I also think the submissive has to take some responsibility for not letting anyone harm them. It is a two way street. People need to be able to recognize when something is wrong and unsafe and question it. I ask for clarification if I am puzzled. Most intelligent adults would too. So the Dominant cannot be solely to blame for someone not questioning something they know is unsafe. It takes two.

< Message edited by sweetnurseBBW -- 6/26/2007 6:28:07 PM >


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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/26/2007 6:29:40 PM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MisstressNboytoy
And slaveluci...it was a metaphorical bus that sometimes swerves out of the way.

Oh, well gee.  In that case, I'd jump right in front of it, never a question asked.  Sometimes, I can be so literal.....luci

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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/26/2007 6:31:54 PM   
sambamanslilgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MisstressNboytoy

So, when your master or mistress gives you an order, what is the thought process that goes through your mind? Do you do it immediately no matter what, or do you think about what the consequences might be? Where is the line between where you wouldn't think about it at all, and where you would refuse? Have you talked it over with your owner, so that he or she will know ahead of time?

time for some *shock and awe* - Daddy allow me to make decisions and counterdecisions after thoroughly listening to His suggestions in what's best for me.  however i better be ready to accept responsibility and consequence of said choices that i made.  i have made some blunders and have learned valuable lesson from them.


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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/26/2007 6:34:33 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MisstressNboytoy

Recently, I've seen a lot of posts in the forums from subs that have greatly surprised me. From the thread in this section about financial domination to the health and safety section about std's, submissives continue to express their unfaltering devotion to their owners no matter what is being asked of them. Complete submission and trust is a beautiful thing, but is it truly ever all right to stop thinking of your own well-being in order to please your owner?

I'm not talking about refusing to do dishes because american idol is on tv, the issues from the above mentioned threads were much more serious. For example, a few women in the thread about std's remarked that they would happily have unprotected sex with men if their master ordered them to, because their bodies belonged to him no matter what he chose to do with them. ... and I was thinking, WHAT?

I'm sure a lot of subs believe that their owners have all of their best interests in mind. Maybe they do. I do the best I can to ensure I don't make decisions that would endanger my submissive in any way, but the fact is, somehow it would be a big turn off if I thought he would run out in front of bus because I said so. (Which is basically the same as having unprotected sex.) And who's to say I always know what the best thing for him is? Though I will always do my best to take care of him, I will also always expect him to tell me if I give him an order that is simply not feasible / is dangerous / etc.

So, when your master or mistress gives you an order, what is the thought process that goes through your mind? Do you do it immediately no matter what, or do you think about what the consequences might be? Where is the line between where you wouldn't think about it at all, and where you would refuse? Have you talked it over with your owner, so that he or she will know ahead of time?


I do not expect Valyraen to be some sort of superhuman deity and to know every single thing that might cause me physical or emotional harm. It would be impossible for him to know because I do not always know. I can not always tell when something will trigger my depression and I am often surprised by what has caused my back or knee to start acting up. I believe putting that kind of pressure on the dominant to always know what is best and to never make a mistake is irresponsible on the part of the submissive. They are human. They will make mistakes. Do not expect perfection.

Because of this, we view it as my duty to tell him when something doesn't feel right to me. And he has a duty to satisfy my need to know why it is being done. I may not agree with it, but I know why. If it is something I feel would put my life in danger, than I am under orders to disobey.

Like the OP, Valyraen would find that particular level of blind obedience a turn off. Actually he would find me worthless (yes, completely and utterly worthless) if I were to obey to the point of stepping in front of a bus because he told me to. As we like to put it, a horse isn't worth the money if it's going to stand in a barn let itself be burned to death when there is a clear way out. I would not be worth a second of his time and he would not spend it on me. However, I would have unprotected sex with someone if Valyraen told me to if we had already agreed that he might do so and that he would have a full STI report done on them ahead of time and that he would insist on seeing the test results personally.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/26/2007 6:38:12 PM >


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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/26/2007 6:50:46 PM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
I believe putting that kind of pressure on the dominant to always know what is best and to never make a mistake is irresponsible on the part of the submissive. They are human. They will make mistakes. Do not expect perfection.

Aquatic,
I totally agree with your last three sentences.  Master says this of Himself.  This is why I would never put "pressure" on Him to always know everything and never make a mistake.  He accepts the responsibility to do those things to the utmost of His ability, being fully aware (as am I) that He may occasionally falter.  With both of us always striving for the same goals and doing our best to look out for the best interests of each other, things tend to go smoothly without Him feeling undue pressure to always be unfailingly perfect.........luci

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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/26/2007 7:08:53 PM   
asubmissiveheart


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Complete submission, but only with the woman I love and trust.
Without love and trust, I could never completly submit.

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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/26/2007 9:06:23 PM   
viperess


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Greetings,
Blind faith..yes i have known Masters to who no i would not place my total trust in as i knew it would not be the right thing to do. As for Master, yes i do total trust Him with my safety and wellbeing. i know He would not ask something of me which would place me in danger or harm me for what good is a broken toy to Him? i have complete trust He would not tell me to do something that i would have to think about first. To me why would anyone willingly place their life in the hands of someone they could not trust? If you have to think about doing as your Master says then why would you allow yourself to be owned by Him? Then again that is just this old slaves 2 cents worth.

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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/26/2007 9:35:06 PM   
DaddysSweet1


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I am new here but I feel that many things typed on these forums have very little to do with reality, in some cases. There are some that will say anything if it makes them appear more submissive. I would trust Daddy to know beforehand that this person was disease free so yes I would obey.


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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/26/2007 10:29:51 PM   
LadyHeart


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I also have concerns about some of the things that submissives are prepared to accept "for their own good, because Master knows best." Just look at some of the threads that have come up recently. Unprotected sex with others who are not in exclusive relationships is just a start. A sub whose limits were being pushed by her master who wished her to rim him ( a health issue and a limits issue in one) A limit being used as a punishment. I even had a private email from a sub whose master had put her on the streets to "work" as a prostitute for punishment, and then did it again to remind her of her place. In what possible world are any of those actions in someone's best interests? I am glad to see someone speaking out, because there are obviously subs around who are completely in thrall to their "masters", to the extent that their crap detectors have ceased to function. Why is it any of my business? Because these are the sorts of things that end up in the hospitals and/or the law courts and get us all a bad name.
Shaking my head.
:))
LH

< Message edited by LadyHeart -- 6/26/2007 10:35:22 PM >


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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/26/2007 10:34:45 PM   
LadyHeart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddysSweet1

I am new here but I feel that many things typed on these forums have very little to do with reality, in some cases. There are some that will say anything if it makes them appear more submissive. I would trust Daddy to know beforehand that this person was disease free so yes I would obey.


It is great that you trust him, but unless he is a doctor who has has just performed an STD test on someone, he couldn't possibly "know" someone is disease free. People lie, especially about such things as STD's. Many are ignorant - they think the only STD they have to worry about is AIDS or hepatitis. For you own protection, I strongly recommend that you educate yourself. Being totally reliant on the judgement of others is NOT part of being a good submissive. It is a partnership where you have to hold up your end as well or the whole relationship fails under the burden.

:))
LH

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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/27/2007 2:58:14 AM   
SubinMaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHeart

I also have concerns about some of the things that submissives are prepared to accept "for their own good, because Master knows best." Just look at some of the threads that have come up recently. Unprotected sex with others who are not in exclusive relationships is just a start. A sub whose limits were being pushed by her master who wished her to rim him ( a health issue and a limits issue in one) A limit being used as a punishment. I even had a private email from a sub whose master had put her on the streets to "work" as a prostitute for punishment, and then did it again to remind her of her place. In what possible world are any of those actions in someone's best interests? I am glad to see someone speaking out, because there are obviously subs around who are completely in thrall to their "masters", to the extent that their crap detectors have ceased to function. Why is it any of my business? Because these are the sorts of things that end up in the hospitals and/or the law courts and get us all a bad name.
Shaking my head.
:))
LH


The above pretty much puts it all into perspective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHeart

It is great that you trust him, but unless he is a doctor who has has just performed an STD test on someone, he couldn't possibly "know" someone is disease free. People lie, especially about such things as STD's. Many are ignorant - they think the only STD they have to worry about is AIDS or hepatitis. For you own protection, I strongly recommend that you educate yourself. Being totally reliant on the judgement of others is NOT part of being a good submissive. It is a partnership where you have to hold up your end as well or the whole relationship fails under the burden.


i couldn't agree more.  i find it very difficult, in this day and age, to understand why someone would put, quite literally, their LIVES at stake.  We all know the risks...we wouldn't put ourselves at risk in a "mainstream" relationship by having unprotected sex (unless the relationship is a monogamous one)..why would we allow someone to instruct us to do so in a BDSM relationship.

Submission is all well and good, you can be completely devoted to your Sir...but if your Sir is instructing you to have unprotected sex with any others (or if HE is having unprotected sex with any others), there is no regard there for the submissives safety and red flags should be going off everywhere.

Just my opinion *smile*
*edited because i haven't had enough coffee yet dammit*


< Message edited by SubinMaine -- 6/27/2007 2:59:42 AM >

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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/27/2007 4:08:42 AM   
julietsierra


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I have a simple rule I follow.

"Is this healthy for me?" (This includes physically, mentally, emotionally, financially)

And by that, I mean it in terms of the entire relationship. If he's asking me to do things that will harm me, then what I have here is no longer a healthy relationship and I'm walking.

Simply being scared of something I don't know about doesn't count.

I don't presume he knows what's best for me. He's human. He's a male and just because he's a dominant doesn't mean he's any more clued in to the female psyche - THIS female's psyche - than any other male is out there. At times, he'll be brilliant. Other times I might wonder where he's been these last 50 some years that he hasn't figured something out about women yet. And then there are the times I want to shake him and say "just because you've had other slaves/submissives who've felt this way does NOT mean I do."

But you know what? That's what a relationship is. It's not a failing on his part. It's him being who he is and me being who I am and each of us enjoying the discovery of each other. Hopefully this discovery never ends.

Consequently, I don't put the responsibility to know what's best for me on to his shoulders. He knows what he wants. He knows what's best for him. I know what I want. I know what's best for me. Part of my submission is that I do my level best to provide what's best for him as he's communicated it to me.

However, when what he wants begins to place me in a detrimental position, when what he wants ceases to be healthy for me, I have a responsibility to myself and to the family members I'm in turn responsible for, to make sure I communicate to him why I can't do what he wants me to do.

I've had to do this a lot. From something as simple as me saying I can't do what he wanted me to do because there was a wedding we'd been invited to and while I knew he didn't necessarily want to go to it, these were my friends and I didn't see how I could not, in good conscience, attend. Not attending would have damaged my friendship with these people and so, been unhealthy for me. I said "no." If he'd insisted, it'd have been unhealthy for me and I'd have determined that this was not right for us.

It's included me asking him not to mark me on one occassion that we were sessioning because I was going with my sister and mother to go swimming the next morning and didn't want to have to explain the bruises. Having bruises the type and quality that he's able to inflict would not be healthy for me in terms of my relationship with my family. It was imperative that I make him aware of this. If he'd persisted in marking me, creating issues between me and my family, that'd have been unhealthy for me and I'd have had to make a decision as to whether the relationship was right for me or not. I'd have chosen that it wasn't.

And it's included me telling him I couldn't do some things sexually with others because the risk I'd be undertaking was too great for me to be willing to take that chance. It was not healthy in terms of my physical well-being. He really wanted me to do this. It was important to him. When I told him why I couldn't, he didn't argue the point. He accepted that it wasn't that I was so much unwilling to do what he wanted as much as it was that I was unwilling to take the chance of me being hurt by what he wanted. That's the part that was unacceptable to me. Once that was communicated to him, he accepted what was said. If he hadn't, I'd have walked in an instant.

One of the most interesting - and ultimately helpful things that happened to us was that at the very beginning, I told him something I couldn't do. I told him I couldn't do this because my self-esteem wouldn't be able to manage it. He thought I was simply trying to control the relationship. He tested what I told him by doing exactly what I said I couldn't manage. It caused the one rift we ever had in our relationship, and it was a rift that could easily have been the end to us.

It took us 6 months of working through this event and countless hours of me doing some significant soul searching. I presume he probably did the same. Both of us decided to stay with this and see what could be done.

One of the nicest things that came from this though was that the rift tossed him right off the pedestal I had him on ( a very good thing). Now, when I submit, I recognize and understand that I'm not submitting to a man on a pedestal, but to a man who endeavors to do his best each and every single day (and sometimes makes mistakes). I have come to trust my judgment more and his actions during those 6 months and in the years following that rift have shown me the difference between blind faith and submission. Frankly, I like where I am now verses where we used to be, even if sometimes I have to deal with demons that I didn't have before. It's more than worth it.

To me, submission means that no matter what he says, I'll endeavor to do my best to meet his wants, needs and desires. However, submission also means that I have a significant responsibility to him and to myself to take care of me. And sometimes, submission means that I have the responsibility to inform him when what he's suggesting is unhealthy for me.

I'm in a relationship - WE'RE in a relationship. We work together. Neither of us abdicates responsibility for ourselves in this relationship, and as such, along the way, we help each other maintain responsibility for each other.

This relationship has value and because of that, we value it and ourselves enough to keep it and ourselves healthy. And nothing much gets done around here on blind faith.

I rather like submitting knowing all ramifications of submission. So much more interesting than simply submitting on blind faith.


juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 6/27/2007 4:33:40 AM >

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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/27/2007 5:01:42 AM   
lilacs


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Okay, I'm being lazy and not reading every reply... but I just have one little bit to add.

Accepting on "blind" faith is bad.

Accepting on "faith" (ie: based on something you feel because of experience, trust, etc.) isn't necessarily bad.

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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/27/2007 5:05:45 AM   
MisstressNboytoy


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Faith is great, I think it brings a lot of joy and assurance to a relationship. But faith is fallible, as are all of us. Great post juliet.

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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/27/2007 7:18:08 AM   
ready4srvce4all


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MisstressNboytoy

So, when your master or mistress gives you an order, what is the thought process that goes through your mind? Do you do it immediately no matter what, or do you think about what the consequences might be? Where is the line between where you wouldn't think about it at all, and where you would refuse? Have you talked it over with your owner, so that he or she will know ahead of time?


I do what Mistress says, it's that simple.  Refuse?  I gave Mistress a very detailed set of limits, and those limits are respected.  Everything else is at Her whim. 
It's not a cafeteria, I don't get to pick and choose indiscriminately what I want and don't want.  I crossed what I didn't like off the menu, and what remains whether stated or not, is completely up to Mistress what will be served.  The only deviation in this is when a totally new form of play I was not aware of is discovered, a perfect example being hook pull suspension.  We reviewed this,  determined it is not a limitation, and we will hopefully engage in that form of play in the near future. 

And even if something wasn't a stated limit, if for some reason I just didn't feel right, I can always use the safeword to stop what we are doing, and explore what is going on. 

With limits in place and respected, and a safeword to use, I don't see how anyone can be said to be blindly following another.  

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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/27/2007 7:32:29 AM   
slaveluci


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From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra
Now, when I submit, I recognize and understand that I'm not submitting to a man on a pedestal, but to a man who endeavors to do his best each and every single day (and sometimes makes mistakes)

quote:

To me, submission means that no matter what he says, I'll endeavor to do my best to meet his wants, needs and desires. However, submission also means that I have a significant responsibility to him and to myself to take care of me.

quote:

I'm in a relationship - WE'RE in a relationship. We work together. Neither of us abdicates responsibility for ourselves in this relationship, and as such, along the way, we help each other maintain responsibility for each other.

juliet,
Beautiful post.  The quotes I highlighted were things I tried to say myself earlier but you have said them so much better.  Master never put Himself on a pedestal, it was I who did it.  And, like you said, it has only made us closer now that I don't see Him as up on it anymore.  Wonderfully said............slave luci





< Message edited by slaveluci -- 6/27/2007 7:33:48 AM >


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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/27/2007 7:42:39 AM   
MasterFireMaam


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I think that this can become an almost moot point if the Master and slave are well matched. If I told my girl to go and sit in the street, she'd do it no questions because she knows that I either 1) have the traffic blocked so that she would be safe or 2) have a damned good reason for her to get hit. Of course, #1 is the much more likely scenario!

The point is: she trusts me, sometimes with her life. BUT, she also knows that I believe a slave ALWAYS has at least ONE choice: to obey or not. There are consequences to obedience just as there are for disobedience. It's up to her to weigh them and choose. If I'm answering my calling in a steadfast way, the prefered choice is to obey. But, she does have the right to judge if what I'm asking is sane or not. In fact, she has the power to have me committed because she has medical power of attorney. So, I trust HER with MY life, too. When you have levels such as these and you have two people dedicated to properly answering their higher power (we feel that this relationship is spiritual), the chances of blind obedience leading to negative results are lowered.

There are times when it's a very valid thing for a slave to question, then choose to not obey. For example, I've heard the following story: An HIV+ Master decided that he was tired of worrying about the issue of infecting his slave, wearing condoms and such, and so he wanted his slave to "zero convert", a term that means to willfully infect himself. We won't go into the details about how stupid an idea this is/was. The slave was truly torn. He'd promised to obey and took that VERY seriously, but this was his life/well being in question here. He talked to a group of slaves and got the following advice: stay, obey and risk an early death and endure a lot of medical things or to not obey and risk loosing the collar. He chose the latter...and he was, in fact, released.

In a nutshell, slaves have the right to choose, in my world, knowing that there are consquenses for their actions. But, this is true of every day life, too.

Master Fire


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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/27/2007 2:51:05 PM   
kyraofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
He makes the decisions that best serve our family.   


Since I think that posts I made in the Financial Domination thread played a part in starting this thread I thought I would come back and clarify this sentence from my earlier post.

He makes the decisions that he thinks best serve our family.  I know that he will not always make the best decision for me and he will not always make the best decision for the family.  Even I don't make the best decisions for me or for the family.  However, what ever decision he makes I will abide by it. 

It has happened in the past and it will happen again in the future that certain decisions he makes will cause me pain and I will think it is the wrong decision.  In fact, it happened just a couple of weeks ago, but I did as I was told.

I have faith that things will work out for the best in the end, but I know that there will be hard times along the way.  I didn't enter into this relationship to hold back any part of myself and who I am.  I give everything that he wants of me and then some.

This type of relationship isn't for everyone, but it is perfect for me.

Knight's Kyra 

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Complete submission or blind following? - 6/27/2007 5:42:38 PM   
MisstressNboytoy


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I didn't mean to imply you shouldn't follow an order because you don't like it. I was referring to orders that might cause irreparable harm to your well-being.

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