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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 12:11:30 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		okies Level......i have to admit i'm getting a mite confuzzled. Chaingang called you a bigot over the Bush/homosexual thing......who called you a bigot about a Bush/black thang?

Now, from everything i've read of you both charges are clearly unfounded....but one has been..er...levelled at you by Chaingang......the other has not been levelled at you as far as i know. Which makes it look to me that you are defending yourself against an accusation not made against you.

i've been accused (sorta) of being a weak minded xenophile on these fora, but never called a paedophile. If i were to start posting about how being called a paedophile is both insulting and wrong....well, i'd be right in a sense but also inventing a charge to defend myself against........and i hope people would call me on it too

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 12:28:51 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

okies Level......i have to admit i'm getting a mite confuzzled. Chaingang called you a bigot over the Bush/homosexual thing......who called you a bigot about a Bush/black thang?

Now, from everything i've read of you both charges are clearly unfounded....but one has been..er...levelled at you by Chaingang......the other has not been levelled at you as far as i know. Which makes it look to me that you are defending yourself against an accusation not made against you.

i've been accused (sorta) of being a weak minded xenophile on these fora, but never called a paedophile. If i were to start posting about how being called a paedophile is both insulting and wrong....well, i'd be right in a sense but also inventing a charge to defend myself against........and i hope people would call me on it too


First, thank you for the good words, phil, I have my faults, but being bigoted isn't one of them
 
Here's the quote that I referred to:
quote:

 
I just can't stand watching you be a Bush apologist of any kind. Why can't people take his actions at face value?

If Bush opposes basic civil rights for gay people - then he's a bigot and acting upon hatred. Do you likewise apologize for people who lynch African-Americans because they're not really engaging in an act of hatred - it's just politics!

Or whatever...



*emphasis added*
 
So....... I guess it's a bit of both, phil, the thread that the above quote came from was about Bush "hating gays", and it ooozed into me "being" an apologist for race hatred, as well.
 
Hopefully that makes it clearer, if not, let me know, I'll take another whack at it

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 12:32:31 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Hopefully that makes it clearer, if not, let me know, I'll take another whack at it


.....ahhhh, i finally see. Thanks for the clarification Level......a pity that the debate in the other thread derailed itself so badly. Bad piece of oozage there........

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 12:50:47 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Hopefully that makes it clearer, if not, let me know, I'll take another whack at it


.....ahhhh, i finally see. Thanks for the clarification Level......a pity that the debate in the other thread derailed itself so badly. Bad piece of oozage there........


You're welcome. I agree, it was sad..... and quick LOL, it happened on post 15, in a 150+ post thread. Things didn't get prettier, either

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 1:14:16 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		There is a difference how Dems play ball in contrast to their Rep brothers and sisters....I don't think it can be denied.....I don't believed they have ever employed the likes of a Rove or an Atwater, who so effectively and viciously helped win elections without regards to whether their was an actual  belief behind the statements being made or to whom might be getting hurt in the process.

Republicans have to lose elections. It is that simple....The Dems are a mess...They don't have a unified voice, belief or platform.....

There is a huge difference and one that I have pointed out before...Why does Fox thrive where programming like Air America fail?  There has to be a significant difference as to how Reps are willing to receive their news in contrast to the Dems.

What happened to the amendment to ban gay marriage?  It was a big enough topic to help win an election and the idiot Dems fell all over themselves not being to address the question in a manner that would help soothe the fears of middle class America.  So scared...The Nascar Nation turned to the party that offered up a rational solution and it helped propel George back into office....It was fucking brilliant!!!

Who are the Dems in comparison to the GOP?.....The Dems are 26% white...42% Hispanic....54% Black.....What in the fuck does this group have in common?.....Then if you break it down further between gays...activists.(peta, sierra club, aclu...etc etc etc) and other groups whether disenfranchised from the mainstream or not...You have a large group of people that in reality are not capable of agreeing on a single topic yet being able  to sit together in the same room.

So what the Republican have as an agenda is to find the topic that will polarize the (predominantly white) independent voters not to vote Republican but out of fear not to cast a vote for the Dems...They will always portray themselves as the lesser of the two evils.  Whether it has been the disingenuous "Swift Boat Veterans" or banning gay marriage or a smear campaign the Republicans are simply better at getting mean and vicious than the Dems....I don't think it can be argued.

What effect does Kanye West have in comparison to the Swift Boat Veterans?...Is Kanye going to motivate any independent white American not to vote Republican?....Because that is what wins elections.  For now.

****Random thought****
It is unfortunate that it took a terminal illness for Lee Atwater to realize that what he did was wrong....I read some excerpts from an article he wrote upon realizing that he was probably not going to live...I wish I could find it...It is actually one  of the more memorable things that I have ever read....It was truly touching.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 6/30/2007 1:37:05 PM >

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 1:25:04 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		I couldn't find a specific article written by Atwater, but here's a couple of links discussing his change of heart at the end, DG.
 
I especially like this quote of his: "I used to say that the President might be kinder and gentler, but I wasn't going to be. How wrong I was. There is nothing more important in life than human beings."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060519/news_1c19fixin.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/bckgrnd/atwater.htm

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 1:39:45 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Democrats could win wide popularity, if their pundits would stop attacking individual people, and instead lump the entire conservative movement into one group, in order to attack them all.
 
Watch/listen/read any conservative pundit, and every third sentence, there is a wonderfully effective generalization, like: "Liberals feel X", or "You can't trust liberals, because they are Y."
 
Liberals use this same strategy at time, but deny it the proper repetitive drama-ramma to make it entirely effective.
 
I must say, for Republicans, it's a brilliant strategy!!! You have to give credit where it's due. The right wing gets to hammer away at everyone, without ever actually hammering away at anyone.
 
If it wasn't so goddamn effective, I would think it was a goddamn joke. But ... I guess that's the kind of joke that God likes best.


Caitlyn, I'm going to play a joke on all of them and vote for Ron Paul.

Level, as an Independant I get it from both Dems and Repubs!
Don't feel bad if those bozos call you a "nazi", Ted Kennedy's father was a nazi sympathizer!
(Of course they want to "forget" that!)

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 6/30/2007 1:48:57 PM >

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 1:51:59 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Democrats could win wide popularity, if their pundits would stop attacking individual people, and instead lump the entire conservative movement into one group, in order to attack them all.
 
Watch/listen/read any conservative pundit, and every third sentence, there is a wonderfully effective generalization, like: "Liberals feel X", or "You can't trust liberals, because they are Y."
 
Liberals use this same strategy at time, but deny it the proper repetitive drama-ramma to make it entirely effective.
 
I must say, for Republicans, it's a brilliant strategy!!! You have to give credit where it's due. The right wing gets to hammer away at everyone, without ever actually hammering away at anyone.
 
If it wasn't so goddamn effective, I would think it was a goddamn joke. But ... I guess that's the kind of joke that God likes best.


Democrats can win wide popularity with who?  The right does hammer away at everyone but what makes them effective is when they have just one person  their sights...Swift boat veterans ...for instance.

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 2:08:21 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

If you look at the link in question, Phil, you'll find that my reference to the Dems ( referring specifically to the party ) was pretty much a mirror of the tone used there discussing Republicans.  I try to be specific about which particular group I'm painting with a broad brush.   It's kind of difficult to avoid when discussing over-all party strategies.


...i had a closer look TH, now forgive me if i read this wrong but aren't you actually proving the point? No-one on this thread has said that GWB hates blacks, yet that has become what we are discussing. Seems to me it's the same tactic the author of the piece linked to in the OP is advocating.




        I was speaking of a lot more than a single thread, Phil, or a particular internet forum.  "Republican rascism" has been a common charge among the Dems for quite some time.  I consider it to be an attempt to keep Black Democrats from deserting the party that has been lying to, using, and taking them for granted for 40 odd years.  The specific quote was merely a single example of the practice. 

       The link suggested that not only do Republicans win elections by playing on fears, but that Democrats were far too lofty-minded and idealistic to do it themselves.  I call "Horseshit" on that.

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 2:20:33 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Democrats can win wide popularity with who?


Wouldn't it be, "with whom?"
 
The whole thread was supposed to be sarcasm, anyway.

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 2:22:00 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      The link suggested that not only do Republicans win elections by playing on fears, but that Democrats were far too lofty-minded and idealistic to do it themselves.  I call "Horseshit" on that.


...oh i do agree with you....so long as we're not just switching the argument round. i have heard republicans play on fears as well. i'd call horseshit on the both of them......assuming we can find a big enough horse with tummy trouble....

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 2:23:18 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn


The whole thread was supposed to be sarcasm, anyway.


........... it was?........damn my too serious mind........

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 2:29:00 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		I still do not get the "swift boat" thing.  All Kerry had to do was release his millitary records, and show the accusations to be nothing but baseless false lies.  It would have taken Kerry less than 3 minutes to have signed the paperwork, yet for some reason Kerry was unwilling to do so.  Kerry was running on his record as a veteran,"reporting for duty", and his minnions were calling Bush AWOLand attacking his service record, so I see only 2reasons for him to have refused to release his records.  Either the charges were true and the records confirmed it, or there was somehting worse in the records he did not want to get out and would rather have the accusations stand unanswered.  What was the problem with the swift boat ads?

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 3:04:52 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		The Swift Boat ads cost Senator Kerry votes that he would have never gotten under any conditions, and nothing he would have done, would have earned these votes.
 
Even today, it has been absolutely proven that the doctor that appeared in the one ad, saying he treated John Kerry, has no proof that he ever met the man, and was stationed in San Diego at the time of the incident he mentioned ... BUT, does that matter? Nope ... DDG'dude, on this forum, the one that thinks he has already died for his country ... will still call Senator Kerry a traitor.

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 3:13:42 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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Status: offline 		i finally got the chance to actually read the article.....and it makes sense to me in many ways....

i was married to a union man for almost 20 years and i tend to vote democrat more than republican, yet i never gave john kerry a thought as who i would vote for because, frankly, he gave me the creeps.  every time i saw him speak, the DANGER WILL ROBINSON got louder in my head. 

i hate me sometimes for allowing my gut feelings to rule me, but i have found, when i ignore them, it comes back to bite me in the butt.

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 3:35:03 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

.  Either the charges were true and the records confirmed it, or there was something worse in the records he did not want to get out and would rather have the accusations stand unanswered.  What was the problem with the swift boat ads?


This is the problem with the Swift Boat Ads.....People like yourself will never take the time to learn about all the falsehoods that were portrayed as "fact" in those ads.....So what does a politician do?  Take time out of his campaign to address these lies?....Then already haven't they been effective?

Caitlyn, I  wholeheartedly disagree...People believe what they read...People are stoooopid.  These are the same people who might still believe there was a connection between Saddam and 9/11.  If you are on the fence and you have a group of "honest" veterans stating that Kerry's military history is a lie....How many people will ever take the time to find where the truth actually lies....Obviously there is one above me who didn't....Now it is obvious that he,luckydog1, would never vote for Kerry....But don't be so sure about the rest of the uninformed Nascar Nation.

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 3:40:01 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     The link suggested that not only do Republicans win elections by playing on fears, but that Democrats were far too lofty-minded and idealistic to do it themselves.  I call "Horseshit" on that.


...oh i do agree with you....so long as we're not just switching the argument round. i have heard republicans play on fears as well. i'd call horseshit on the both of them......assuming we can find a big enough horse with tummy trouble....



        I'm now thinking along the lines of the Budweiser Clydesdales.   (Google if you don't get those commercials in the U.K. or Canada )

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 4:07:46 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Domi, I'd never vote for Kerry either!
I lived in Massachusetts when he was Lt.Gov under Michael S. Dukakis.
What a disaster!
They took a vibrant economy "The Massachusetts Miracle" which *already* existed before they came into office and *utterly* destroyed it!

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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 4:16:33 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		        A lot of people made up their minds about Kerry's service well before the boat thing.  Three Purple Hearts in 4 1/2 months?  Too dumb to duck.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Your brain on politics - 6/30/2007 4:46:15 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Too dumb to duck.


Sergeant William H. Carney of the 54th Massachusettes, the first African American to be awarded the Medal of Honor, was wounded four times in three weeks including twice in one one day, at Fort Wagner.
 
Audie Murphy may have been too dumb to duck too.

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