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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 12:36:37 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Well the problem with most severly austistic people is that they can't be tested, or tested using traditional methods- so it's really not possible to say how smart they are- only how well they function on the "normal standards" we test for.

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 12:38:42 PM   
BeingChewsie


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Yes, most adults who have it, are not formally diagnosed. There is little reason to be, Our lives look like everyone elses, its is a somewhat private hell.

Imagine you are on a shore and can see an Island with people on the other side having a good time, there is a boat, you can get in it but you just can't figure out how to get to the other side. The sad thing for aspies is we want friends, we know we are different and perceive things differently, we sense things differently, it is like having a foot in each world..the world of the autistic who is locked in to his own world and the world of neuro-typicals..and fitting in neither.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Calandra

Katy: actually many adults with Aspergers go for their whole lives without diagnosis. There are subtle differences in HOW they percieve the world around them, causing them to seem cold or detached, but their understanding of most things is equal to anyone else's.
 
This slave was actually Dominant with his own household for many years. He is nearly 40, has been married, a parent, a homeowner, a hard worker with steady employment. There is nothing simple about this man, and he has a heart of gold that few ever see because of his formal demeanor.
 
I have known him for four 1/2 years and only within a close, more intimate relationship have I noticed the problems he faces. I'm actually relieved that there might be a name for these challenges because that might mean we can find solutions.


_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 12:39:27 PM   
MagiksSlave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Calandra

I have only recently learned about Asperger's syndrome. If I explain it correctly, Aspergers is a form of high functioning autism that can be undiagnosed even into adulthood. It has only been formally recognized since around 1994.
 
As it happens, one of My slaves shows the signs of having it and I am having a difficult time finding out much information about it. It appears that this disorder has been studied and recognized in children, with successful behavior modification strategies, but I haven't found much information to help adult sufferers to cope.
 
Of course it goes without saying that there aren't any resources for those in the D/s lifestyle who face this challenge.
 
Is anyone on CollarMe familiar with this syndrome? If so, what can I expect with this disorder? What coping techniques have worked for you and your loved ones?
 
I want to be fair and balanced as a Mistress, and I don't want to attribute My slave's behavior to "attitude" when it might be Aspergers. I also don't want to give him a "free walk" and allow the discipline of My entire household to fall apart just to cater to his disorder.
 
Thank you for your time,
Calandra 


its not something I wish to get into here but I think I may be of a some help if you wish to talk my mailbox on the other side is always open!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
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before the devil even knows your there.


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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 12:41:29 PM   
Calandra


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Thanks for the book suggestions. I will be getting them this weekend.
 
It sounds like your Dom is a responsible and caring person.

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 12:46:15 PM   
BeingChewsie


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I agree. We have not unlocked the key to their world yet.

I don't see any correlation into a greater chance of being abused and Asperger's syndrome. I think people perhaps don't understand how the disability manifests itself. I would say there is a greater chance of being an unintentional abuser vs the other way around. We often struggle with empathy issues, say what we think, we tend to be brutally honest to the point of cruelty.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Well the problem with most severly austistic people is that they can't be tested, or tested using traditional methods- so it's really not possible to say how smart they are- only how well they function on the "normal standards" we test for.


< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 6/28/2007 12:47:23 PM >


_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 12:46:19 PM   
Calandra


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Thank You so much!
 
I will contact the person You suggest today.
 

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"Nothing is ever final until you're dead - and even then I'm sure God negotiates" Anjelica Huston in Everafter

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 12:49:29 PM   
TheGaggingWh0re


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My owner actually has AS, and really it's not that bad if you learn to communicate with one another and prepare yourself to not be selfish because it is a disability and very difficult for the person to cope with.

I can not tell you how I learned to deal with it because the things he'd say used to upset me, but somewhere along the way I learned to read between the lines. Perhaps it's my "well, when you say this, do you mean this? Because that's how I interpreted it, but I want to hear how you meant to" statements that helped me to see what he really means behind each word. He knows that I won't say that just to annoy him, either, and that I really, truly wish to understand him so we don't end up getting into a huge, pointless fight.

This is most definitely not a burden. It's a chance to get to know your sub much better!

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 12:57:55 PM   
thetammyjo


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I'd consult a trained therapist who knows about this.

I don't think online information can be nearly as good as going to a therapist with your slave and getting a good diagnosis.

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 1:02:01 PM   
BeingChewsie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Calandra

It sounds like your Dom is a responsible and caring person.


My kiddo geting diagnosed and my fitting all the criteria answered so many qustions for us. Once we knew what we were dealing with we could address it. He just has a really good sense of humor and understands when my response to his story about how he broke down on the 405, got picked up by gypsies, then had to walk 15 miles is.." I did 40 listings on e-bay today"...without even acknowledging how shitty his day was..that it isn't personal. I'm getting better but I have to catch myself and force myself to express an empathetic response, I feel it inside but just struggle verbalizing them. When he found out about this, he went out and bought every book on Asperger's and read everything he could, he called specialists, he attends seminars about it, so he can learn how to interact with us and how to help us interact in more appropriate ways with him.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 1:02:11 PM   
Calandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
We often struggle with empathy issues, say what we think, we tend to be brutally honest to the point of cruelty.


It's so weird, but I was actually attracted to toad BECAUSE he was so forthright. Only after we were very close did I see his difficulties in relating with other people. I want to guide him, help him, and understand that the blank look he gives Me at times isn't representative of his inner feelings.
 
In your experience, how does this syndrome affect self esteem?  

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"Nothing is ever final until you're dead - and even then I'm sure God negotiates" Anjelica Huston in Everafter

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 1:10:17 PM   
Calandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I'd consult a trained therapist who knows about this.

I don't think online information can be nearly as good as going to a therapist with your slave and getting a good diagnosis.


I truly don't want this to sound bitchy, but what did I say that gave you the impression that we aren't seeking professional help???? I think I have expressed that I want to find resources and to "step up" to this challenge. I think that it's fairly obvious that I'm not considering "throwing him away" despite the challenges in our future. So I am mystified that you would assume that finding online information is our only avenue?
 
Okay, okay just to be totally clear for those who need reassurances: We are looking into professional diagnosis and therapies. We are seeking books, online resources and (gasp) real live human people who suffer the same challenges. OMG, maybe even a support group????
 
~snark is officially over~  

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"Nothing is ever final until you're dead - and even then I'm sure God negotiates" Anjelica Huston in Everafter

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 1:16:39 PM   
subnstudent


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I have AS myself and in my experience I tend to look for patterns in everybody and everything, and my actions typically follow some kind of pattern. As for how AS affects self-esteem... It doesn't affect it directly. But, it can make things harder for a person if he gets into the habit of having poor self-esteem to begin with, because habits are hard to break. Especially when you don't have anyone to help you do it.

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 1:26:10 PM   
Calandra


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When you speak of patterns, are you referring to routine and structure in daily life or obsessive-compulsive type behavior?
 
My household is a bit free-wheeling and we all love him enough to try and introduce more structure if that will help.
 
Also, what things motivate you in positive ways to make changes? I'm trying to approach this from a logical standpoint, explaining how his behavior is percieved by others, asking how he truly meant the behavior, then showing him  the benefits of changing the behaviors in the future, but it is exhausting when I have no guidelines or formal training.
 
I have finally found a local professional who works with this disorder, but I am unsure if they only work with the one who's diagnosed, or with the AS sufferers support system too.

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 1:27:01 PM   
CitizenCane


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Chewsie is pretty much on target for most of what I've observed about AS. I've dealt with people with diagnosed AS, and probably have a mild case myself.  It's important to remember that the label represents quite a range of symptoms and severities. In some cases it seriously interferes with learning and social interactions, in others it just causes people to be seen as insensitive assholes. On the average, people with AS are high IQ, tend to be quite literal, uncomfortable with ambiguity and non-intuitive about other people's feelings or the 'correct' response to them.  In my experience they are not, in fact, 'insensitive', and are frequently hyper-sensitive and may have trouble with some kinds of emotional self-control, but a great deal of this tends to come from mutual misunderstanding with those around them. Communication can be problematic, and this frequently leads to frustration. Most AS people desire/crave a great deal of order and predictability in their lives, and some are extremely leery of new experiences.  If they understand fully (to their own satisfaction) what is going on, they are much more likely to accept new experiences. OCD-like behaviors are not uncommon, but are not always present. Most tend toward fairly strict habits in some areas which in a D/s context can be a problem if you're trying to push new habits on someone- though once established, they tend to be maintained. 
  In stronger cases of AS, people tend to get 'fixed ideas', that seems perfectly reasonable to them but not to others around them. Finding a positive way to deal with these is one of the critical elements of a relationship with an AS person, as they can easily lead to pointless and on-going strife.
I would have no objection to taking on a sub with mild to moderate AS, and see most of the traits of the syndrome as being at least potentially beneficial in a D/s relationship, but then, I have had quite a bit of experience with AS.  Of course, the vast majority of AS people are males, so the prospect of me finding an otherwise suitable AS sub are pretty slim.

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 1:37:10 PM   
Calandra


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Thank You (and Chewsie) for the detail and helpfulness of your posts.
 
I have long wanted to organize My household a bit better, so I guess this is the time to do it. I have a poly family with two slaves and one very active roommate. I can make changes, for example: I have always rotated chores, so no one got sick and tired of doing the same thing day in and day out. Perhaps we should have a family meeting and negotiate which chores each person will be responsible for on an ongoing basis.
 
Has anyone used journalling as a tool to encourage communication? If so, how does that work out?
 
I have already begun encouraging him to focus his submission upon Me (and not My alpha also) because when his attention is divided within relationships he tends to get frustrated.
 
I have to say, once he "gets it" he is steady and stable with very few difficulties. 

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Lady Kathryn
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"Nothing is ever final until you're dead - and even then I'm sure God negotiates" Anjelica Huston in Everafter

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 2:02:50 PM   
subnstudent


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what do you mean by both in daily life or OCD-type behavior? He probably has some patterns in both, especially if he has to wake up in the morning for a job or chores to do at the end of the day or whatever.

Personally, I think introducing a bit more structure will help. I know for me, I calm down some if people follow certain patterns with me when I'm upset.

Unfortunately I don't have too much experience with motivation in positive ways to make changes. I had a Dom once who would interrupt my self-destructive patterns when he noticed them and that helped tremedously. IE, he scolded me for doing something wrong or making X mistake, and then I'd withdraw into myself and mope, and then he'd tickle me or something to make me feel better.

If he's anything like me, merely explaining how his behavior is percieved by others isn't going to help much. I would reccomend pointing it out as it happens, if at all possible, and give him a chance to try something else. Maybe offer a suggestion. If that's essentially what you said, then great! Keep doing that.

It's going to be very frustrating because it takes a lot of work to help someone with AS. I've had at least three people give up on me because I've been so hard to deal with. Just... at least in my experience it's painful to have someone give up on you because they don't have the patience. I sincerely doubt he's causing trouble specifically to make your life difficult.

I don't have a whole lot of experience with professionals.. My mom had sent me to therapist after therapist just so they could 'fix' me. Which didn't make a whole lot of difference because she needed to put effort to help as well. Definitely ask the professional you found if he would work with you (et al) as well as your boy because I think that would make a world of difference.

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 2:06:33 PM   
GeekyGirl


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I am an aspie as well (somewhat mild case.)

My IQ is sky high and I function well enough to do extremely well in school and be successful at my job.

However, I have a very hard time understanding when I am being rude or hurting people's feelings, because to me,I'm just being "honest" . I have all "lack of empathy" type symptoms. I tend to simply NOT understand why people are making an emotional issue out of a non-emotional subject.

I often talk too long to the point of boring people, because I simply can't "tell" when they've lost interest in my conversation. I am constantly "offending" people and then being frustrated because I genuinely don't understand what it is that I've said that's so offensive. I get accused of being rude and tactless even when I'm trying really, really hard to be nice.

It is very frustrating and upsetting at times because people don't understand you and if you try to explain that you have AS, they accuse you of using it as "crutch".

I can definately see how AS can complicate a D/s relationship, as the dom may feel the sub is being disrespectful when they truly are not trying to be.

Other symptoms I've noticed in regards to AS is certain obsessive behaviors. I can get lost looking at a pattern for hours. I eat in a OCD sort of way, eating in a certain order, all of one item at a time, and moving clockwise around my plate. I get obsessed with certain subject matters and learn everything about them to the exclusion of everything else in my life sometimes. These obsessions last 6-12months usually and entail me spending a great deal of time or money learning about that subject. It's very random...when I was a kid, I went through obsessions on Elvis Presley, vampires, horses (still suffering from that one!), etc. As an adult, I had obsessions with video games, dragons, unicorns, my little ponies, vin diseal, etc. I would go spend whole paychecks buying parapharnelia associated with each obsession.

I tend to have very dry, mathlike logic even in relating to "emotional" issues and it upsets people. Random example: I can totally support he concept of limiting the number of offspring a person is allowed to bear or forced sterilization of people with low IQs. I see those issues as being competely logic-based issues and don't understand why other people see them as having emotional overtones.

As to AS people consenting to D/s, it's no different than a dyslexic person or an ADHD person consenting. We're normal, rational adults who just have a disorder that affects how we deal with people. We aren't mentally incompetent.

Mostly we are just really confused and have a hard time with social situations, which is one reason I've been a recluse all my life and spend most of my time on the internet. It's easier for me to develop my social skills here to an extent because I don't have to read body language.




_____________________________

"It's nothing that I understand, but when in your arms you have complete power over me. So be gentle if you please, 'cause your hands are in my hair, but my heart is in your teeth and it makes me want to make you near me always."

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 2:47:49 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
Can someone with a disability such as this consent?  I'm curious because what I've read makes it sound similar to autism.


Yes.  I have Asperger's Syndrome (albeit not formally diagnosed), and frankly I wouldn't trade my brain wiring for anybody else's.  Asperger's is also known as "Geek Syndrome".  It is basically high-functioning autism.  Folks with this sort of brain wiring tend to have some significant advantages in functionality, usually in the traditionally "geeky" fields of math or science, but some of us are wired optimally for other things.  I can read with full comprehension and retention at truly insane speeds.  The average full page in a paperback book is approximately a four-second data byte to my hungry brain, which really does gobble written words at that speed as a normal default.  This is annoying as hell when the new Harry Potter book comes out and I spend $25 on 90 minutes of entertainment, and useful as hell when I have an entire textbook to absorb in a couple of hours.  Nope, not trading this brain in for a new model.

Now for the downsides.  I have slight prosopagnosia (difficulty recognizing faces).  I have a real aversion to television as the strange faces, loud volume changes during commercials and flashy-blinky lights are seriously stressful to me.  I can tolerate it for limited periods if I concentrate and focus on the show, and if the actors don't change clothes too often for me to keep track of who's doing what to whom.  But more than a couple hours of viewing any kind of media and I'm going to be stressed and grumpy.  I'm not going to rock on the floor sucking my thumb or anything.  I'm just going to do the same thing I'd do if someone was blowing a cigarette in my face and get away from the annoyance.  If for some reason I really can't get away, I'll be uncomfortable and probably short tempered as hell.  I don't like music much either, with a few rare exceptions, and I have spatial difficulty reading maps, rotating shapes and distinguishing left from right. My brain does not seem to be wired very well for media other than the printed word.

I have difficulty recognizing and applying normal human social cues, possibly in part because of the deficiency in my facial recognition wiring.  (Yes, that stuff is actually handled by a discrete portion of the brain).   I compensate by being an active student of human social behavior, anthropology and cultures.  In most social situations I am effectively behaving as a field anthropologist and counterfeiting appropriate cues, since they do not come naturally to me.  I am not always completely successful, but in an academic or professional environment where the social rules are fairly rigid and uniform, and the range of emotional nuance expected from people is narrow and bland, I do very well indeed.

I wouldn't say that I am incapable of lying or misdirecting people, or of being tactful and considerate of the feelings of others, but I am very bad at it.  What I normally communicate with is blunt honesty and simple factual statements mostly devoid of emotional content.  Also, unfortunately, devoid of sufficient understanding of the effect my factual statements can have on the emotional states of others, unless I take considerable time to think such situations through and apply the logic of an anthropologist.  It does not normally occur to me that the act of transmitting, debating or questioning factual data could possibly have an emotional result in anyone else.  This makes me good at science and less good at interpersonal relations. 

I almost completely lack "normal" social taboos and inhibitions on a gut level.  I can never rely on instinct to guide my behavior in a social situation.  In almost any social situation, I am effectively playing a game of mental chess.  It is exhausting.  I am calculating my responses based on my previous observations of the individual and their culture, and presenting what is more or less a human mask.  What is underneath the human mask is not particularly human by most civilized standards.  It is very much "other".  My basic life experience is that of growing up as an intelligent but essentially non-primate animal, living in a world crowded by jabbering monkeys who look like me but are fundamentally an alien species that I find interesting to study but difficult to empathize with. 

I work hard on being a successful adult professional in the real world, and I succeed reasonably well.  I'm good at what I do.  In fact I am most comfortable and relaxed in the academic and professional environment, since the rules of etiquette in academia are closest to "natural" behavior for me - intelligent data exchange minus any confusing, annoying emotional or social baggage.  I'm not dysfunctional, and I'm completely capable of consenting or not consenting to take a risk based on how healthy, productive, logical and functional I assess it to be.

There are certainly people with more severe and impairing cases of Asperger's and autism out there, but a lot of us "Aspies" and "geeks" are high functioning successful professionals, respected in our fields and tolerated as eccentric and quirky at home.  The condition does have a profound effect on how you think, how you percieve the world and how you relate to others, but I wouldn't be willing to say that it's entirely a negative effect.  I honestly don't want to be a jabbering monkey who cares about what other monkeys think or do.  I don't need to be like everyone else.  I like being me, and the me I am happens to be autistic. 

I really like the viewpoint of the humorous site "Institute for the Study of the Neurologically Typical."  I had to retrieve it from a Google cache as it appears the site is down.

What Is NT?

Neurotypical syndrome is a neurobiological disorder characterized by preoccupation with social concerns, delusions of superiority, and obsession with conformity.

Neurotypical individuals often assume that their experience of the world is either the only one, or the only correct one. NTs find it difficult to be alone. NTs are often intolerant of seemingly minor differences in others. When in groups NTs are socially and behaviorally rigid, and frequently insist upon the performance of dysfunctional, destructive, and even impossible rituals as a way of maintaining group identity. NTs find it difficult to communicate directly, and have a much higher incidence of lying as compared to persons on the autistic spectrum.

NT is believed to be genetic in origin. Autopsies have shown the brain of the neurotypical is typically smaller than that
of an autistic individual and may have overdeveloped areas related to social behavior. 

There is no known cure for Neurotypical Syndrome. However, many NTs have learned to compensate for their disabilities and interact normally with autistic persons.

About This Site

This site is an expression of autistic outrage.

About a year ago I learned I was on the autistic spectrum. Inspired by this discovery, I read everything I could get my hands on about the autistic spectrum. Much of it makes sense-- for the first time in 41 years, I had a description, albiet an unexpected one, that fit me.

But a lot of what I've found out there, mostly written by "experts" and "professionals", has been arrogant, insulting, and just plain wrong. My bête noire of the moment is finding my emotions described as "flat". As someone with considerably greater expertise in my emotions than the "experts", I can state unequivocally that my emotions are not "flat". They are different, yes, but they are most certainly not "flat."

Perhaps tomorrow I'll be fired up over being described as "lacking empathy". Or I'll be outraged at an exceptionally clueless "training" method being inflicted upon autistic kids. Or maybe it will be some new paper written by some "expert" from the perspective that neurotypical perception is correct, and my brain is a genetic mistake.
My brain is a jewel. I am in awe of the mind that I have. I and my experience of life is not inferior, and may be superior, to the NT experience of life.

Hence, this "Institute". Persons on the autistic spectrum and NT supporters are invited to submit papers to the Institute, and to share your observations in "Current Research" (the guestbook).
-muskie



< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 6/28/2007 2:54:29 PM >

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RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 4:17:25 PM   
LadyHeart


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I lived for 20 years with a man with Aspergers. One of my children also has it to a lesser degree than her father. On a day to day basis it can be very exasperating to live with. The things that will most affect D/s are inability to prioritize; inability to carry out tasks in any logical way (well, it's logical to them but not to others); irritability when they are interrupted; a belief that you share their world view (so they think you should know what's going on in their world) and most importantly, difficulty learning from experience, so they repeat the same mistakes over and over. These behaviours can be managed, but not changed. It's exhausting, so unless you love them enough, it's hard to live with. If you don't have a strong emotional bond to the person affected by it, I'd say it wouldn't be worth all the frustrations. You need a well developed sense of humour, a lot of unflappability, and the ability to withstand the anger storms if it manifests that way in the individual concerned. It's like living with a child that will never fully grow up, so it can be very discouraging, and can wear you down. This probably sounds very negative, but I'm trying to be factual. Please understand it's not coming from a place of bitterness - you can't blame someone for something they can't help. That would be like punishing a blind person for not being able to see. If he's a severe case then think long and hard about it before getting too involved. You can't fix it.

:))
LH

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"BDSM is not an excuse for bad manners."

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome - 6/28/2007 5:05:30 PM   
angelslave77


Posts: 478
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
To the OP I too was going to recomend Tony Attwoods books, I am presently waiting on a formal diagnosis of AS for my son, and my ex also has it although it was never diagnosed.
I know one thing that a lot of AS children have is that they dont feel pain or have an abnormally high pain threshold and if this carries into adulthood, that would be something to be careful of I would think in terms of D/s.

I know with my ex also I always felt as though I was living with a child because of how he percieved things, he was always very childish and couldnt deal with emotion and was thus very selffish and self focused and had no empathy whatsover. He would also become absolutely fixated on something, usually computer games or his radio controlled cars and ignore all else for hours sometimes days at a time. He ditched the few friends he had, when he and I got together and I became the only person in his life, which is hard because even though he showed no emotion towards me he would be extremly upset/jealous/aggitated if I changed my patterns or routines, met new people ect (rountine is another big part of AS).

I would be very careful about having a D/s relationship with someone with AS although granted there are varying degrees of it. But I would suggest reading as much as you can on it and adapting as best you can.

Good luck because dealing with someone with AS can be incredibly hard and emotionally draining

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 40
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