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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 1:55:29 PM   
uwinceismile


Posts: 365
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline 		a great question philo.
im not sure what it is that inscenses folks the way that topic does?
i believe in choice. id rather it wasnt used as birth control. but i am pro choice.
i do take issue with partial birth abortion. but thats just me. i dont see it ever being overturned.
honestly, i see it as the biggest non issue ...but it is always kicked into the fray as elections draw near .
what scares me is the lunatic fringe on both sides.

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 1:57:37 PM   
mrbob726


Posts: 155
Joined: 4/15/2007
From: Illinois
Status: offline 		I strongly resent your misuse of the term "Social Security" -- I paid into the system all of my working life - and now am retired using the funds as promised. Why do so many think that the SS system is "working the system"? It's Paid insurance, and yes, it's in trouble, because the administrations of both parties have depleted it by misuse of the funds. It's also a fact that many slackers are relying on the gov't to support them - and that's wrong, whether you are right or left of center politically. Beware of extremists on either side of the fence.

***edited for spelling***


< Message edited by mrbob726 -- 6/30/2007 2:18:17 PM >

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 1:59:29 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

. Surely, though, this spartacus group were a tiny minority of those on the left?




...they certainly were but they did exist. i suppose i'm groping towards a more complex model than the standard left/right wing dichotomy. There are paranoid left wingers and sincerely social right wingers....i'm beginning to wonder if the old left/right wing thing is a massive red herring.

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:04:10 PM   
mrbob726


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quote:

what scares me is the lunatic fringe on both sides.


AMEN


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"If builders built buildings the way some programmers write programs, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization."

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:04:57 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		"what scares me is the lunatic fringe on both sides." Iwinceyousmile

"Beware of extrmists on either side of the fence."  MrBob726

..........hard to disagree with this. i wonder sometimes if our old model of a line like this:

LEFT WING ------------------------ RIGHT WING

...ought to be a circle, with the extremes of both sides next to each other. It would explain why i'm not alone in seeing parallels between Islamic extremists and Christian fundamentalists.


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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:05:29 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		As an Independant I don't really know what the "right" or the "left" thinks about this issue nor do I care all that much but I think we do need a National Healthcare Plan in the U.S.
It just makes sense to do so.
If some people don't want a "giant govt. beauracracy" to run it, fine, I don't either, then come up with a different entity other than insurance companies.
My only requirement would be that it be reserved for U.S. Citizens only.
As for an "agreement" on the issue I don't really care how we "get there" or who gets the "credit" for it.

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:06:05 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

i'm beginning to wonder if the old left/right wing thing is a massive red herring.


Good question; it may be useful in an extremely general sense, but when one takes to it like it was gospel, it can prevent deeper thought.

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:12:48 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

. Surely, though, this spartacus group were a tiny minority of those on the left?



...they certainly were but they did exist. i suppose i'm groping towards a more complex model than the standard left/right wing dichotomy. There are paranoid left wingers and sincerely social right wingers....i'm beginning to wonder if the old left/right wing thing is a massive red herring.


Well, yeah, the high priest himself wrote about moral sentiment before wealth creation. The issue in Britain is one of our conservative party not being right-wingers in the Adam Smith mould, so what we see is the madness of Thatcher's neo-liberal economic policy and the reactionary solutions to crime and anti-social behaviour.

Look at Britain; the public protests against the restriction of civil liberties, taxation that cripples the poorest socio-economic groups in society, opposing the invasion of sovereign nations, opposing actions which contravene human rights: those who publicly protest against these policies are largely drawn from the left, and their protests suggest a greater emphasis being placed on society and human rights.

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:15:10 PM   
mrbob726


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quote:

parallels between Islamic extremists and Christian fundamentalists.

I agree to some extent - both are harmful, but at least the fundamentalist christians aren't out to wipe out the muslims.


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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:17:09 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbob726

quote:

parallels between Islamic extremists and Christian fundamentalists.

I agree to some extent - both are harmful, but at least the fundamentalist christians aren't out to wipe out the muslims.



No, but some of them wouldn't mind it......

And ol' Yau Man was my favorite on Fiji.....

< Message edited by Level -- 6/30/2007 2:18:17 PM >

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:19:20 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbob726

quote:

parallels between Islamic extremists and Christian fundamentalists.

I agree to some extent - both are harmful, but at least the fundamentalist christians aren't out to wipe out the muslims.



......sorry but when Ann Coulter says things like "we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to christianity" it makes it hard to agree with you. However, what in our respective experiences do you think gives us such differing views of what christian fundmanetalists mean?

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:20:48 PM   
mrbob726


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quote:

And ol' Yau Man was my favorite on Fiji.....



Mine too - And he sure got shafted - LOL

< Message edited by mrbob726 -- 6/30/2007 2:34:03 PM >

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"Love many, Trust few, Harm none" (Yau Man, Survivor Fiji)

"If builders built buildings the way some programmers write programs, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization."

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:23:06 PM   
uwinceismile


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Status: offline 		i dont see ann coulter as a representative the the far right wing christians.... she is more of a self promoting, how can i get my name in the press , i need to seel 100k more books by the end of the month to make my quota kinda entinty :)

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:23:14 PM   
charmdpetKeira


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quote:

...interesting point about compassion and emotion. i suppose i see compassion as an emotional response to other peoples needs.

 
I learned a while back; compassion comes from having emotional intellegence. While many are able to understand that someone else’s actions/words hurt them; they are unable to see when they do the same to someone else.

quote:

As to what you call emotional interference, i think i'd define that as basic dishonesty.
 
 
I would agree as long as the person doing it realizes that they are, too many don’t.
 
quote:


However some of those who claim to share the road take their half from the edge, and that goes equally for both left and right wingers in my experience.
 
 
I think we're saying the same thing, just wording it differently? In any of the examples, the problem is balance, and I still believe it stems from people involving their personal emotions, that may or may not, even have anything to do with the topic at hand.
 
p.s. This is a situation that is present in most aspects of life which involve humans; not just political.
 
p.s.s Thank you, uwinceismile.
 
Sincerely,
 
k

< Message edited by charmdpetKeira -- 6/30/2007 2:24:55 PM >

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:24:01 PM   
mrbob726


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From: Illinois
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quote:

Ann Coulter says things like "we should invade their countries,

Well, Anne Coulter is an idiot - and who do you think pays any attention to her ? She and Nancy Pelosi are perfect examples of extremists on both sides of the fence.


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"Love many, Trust few, Harm none" (Yau Man, Survivor Fiji)

"If builders built buildings the way some programmers write programs, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization."

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:29:21 PM   
mrbob726


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From: Illinois
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quote:

what in our respective experiences do you think gives us such differing views of what christian fundmanetalists


There are fundamentalist Christians, and then there are Extreme right wing politicians claiming to be fundamentalist Christians. Not the same thing at all.


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"Love many, Trust few, Harm none" (Yau Man, Survivor Fiji)

"If builders built buildings the way some programmers write programs, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization."

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:46:17 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbob726

quote:

what in our respective experiences do you think gives us such differing views of what christian fundmanetalists


There are fundamentalist Christians, and then there are Extreme right wing politicians claiming to be fundamentalist Christians. Not the same thing at all.



....true, but it is equally true to say that there are fundamentalist muslims and extreme xenophobes claiming to be fundamentalist muslims. You can tell the latter from the former because the latter blow things up and the former pray and avoid alcahol.

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:50:57 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		okies....maybe now is the time to reveal my tentative hypothesis.
Is it possible that the viewpoints we tend to identify as right wing are sensible responses to frontier environments, and those we tend to identify as left wing sensible responses to highly developed environments? Frontiers need individuals to make them livable in........highly developed environments only work when people co-operate at fairly high levels........

Thus, when Merc and i disagree,  it's less to do with our sense of ethics and more that we are products of our respective cultures. Me from the UK......proudly stamping out wilderness for centuries.......Merc from the US, land of the free and home to the brave, the big wide sky.


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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:51:38 PM   
mrbob726


Posts: 155
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From: Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

it is equally true to say that there are fundamentalist muslims and extreme xenophobes claiming to be fundamentalist muslims. You can tell the latter from the former because the latter blow things up and the former pray and avoid alcahol.


I agree with you fully  . . .


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"Love many, Trust few, Harm none" (Yau Man, Survivor Fiji)

"If builders built buildings the way some programmers write programs, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization."

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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 2:53:21 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		This is a fine question.
 
First, allow me to apologize in advance if this post seems all over the board.
 
Lets remove left, right and center from the discussion. At the core, what really matters is how people approach solutions to social problems.
 
There are clearly those that cannot empathize with the plight of others. As someone articulated earlier: If you don't have healthcare (for example), you should have worked harder, etc ... Now, lets not look down on these people ... it may very well be that they value their own personal experiences more than what they might see as conceptual. This is their right, I would think.
 
There are those that seem to value a system where solutions will find themselves, given enough room. This manifests in a attitude that the free market and open competition will be the best solution to any problem, and when you remove competition, or overly regulate it, the baby will be thrown out with the bath water. This point of view can be disputed, or supported.
 
Another group looks to the government to provide solutions to problems, believing perhaps in the evil nature of the open market system, which does at times seem to be dominated by those that know how to abuse it. They don't see fairness in open competition, they see the opportunity for abuse. Again, this can be disputer or supported.
 
Yet another will see a defacto duty of the government, to solve these problems. They take a boat-load of money, they better get off their ass and fix problems. Certain groups look upon these people, as wanting a handout. That may be true in some instances,  but in others, these are people that are actually holding the governments fat to the fire ... they are supposed to be providing for the common good, after all.
 
There are probably a ton of other groups, but the point wasn't to sort them all out, as much as to show how different they can be, and yet share a lot of common ground.
 
Uncommonly common, is the notion that when you belong to one group, you tend to see the nafarious in all the others. the immigration reform bill can't be the immigration reform bill ... it has to be the scamnesty bill. The timetable to withdraw from Iraq, can't be a timetable for withdrawl, it has to be the date of surrender.
 
Massive offensive comment: About 99% of people can't debate or discuss ... they can only speak in buzz words.
 
Again, a very good post.

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