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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 8:58:22 AM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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if you break into my home, i am going to shoot first and ask questions later......i just gotta believe youre coming to do some damage, not to mop the kitchen for me.....

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in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 9:00:34 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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Lie. Tell them you were afraid for you life.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 9:03:55 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Who controls the property of the sidewalk though?


Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

AH, so the officer must show that they actually presented a hazard to someone?

I say that because of pre-emptive enforcement is a denial of due process.

Unlike operators of motor vehicles, Skateboarders did not sign an AGREEMENT to abide by the State's Regulation, did they? Therefore, their ability to use THEIR PROPERTY as THEY SEE FIT is guaranteed.






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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 9:06:04 AM   
farglebargle


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Well, according to the Albany City Charter, it is the responsibility of the property owner to maintain from their property to the centerline of the street....

YMMV...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 9:11:16 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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I have had to use deadly force before, in the line of work I was in at the time. The perp was not killed, but was prevented from causing serious and possibly deadly harm to another, while on privately owned property. No charges were filed. Also, if you care to look at case history, at least here in Georgia, you will find numerous cases where the person killing or severely wounding the perp, was either not charged or not found guilty. In fact, about 20 years or so ago, a city in Georgia made it mandatory for home owners to own a firearm of some kind, the burglary rate dropped.

I won't go into the line of work I was in, it doesn't matter because they are just words on a message board, so how can they be verified. I will not go into circumstances I have been involved in, with friends who are in a line of work that deal with this every day, because again they are just words on a message board.

Here is a hypothetical question: If one of the kids had swung the skateboard at the officers head, and then the rest charged at him, what would have been reasonable force to handle that situation?


Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

I would rather talk about the application of things in the real world and not in the classroom.


In the real world, those who actually do the job, are taught the realities of  using deadly force by instructors at the police academy (usually a practicing criminal attorney, sometimes a professor who is also a veteran cop)... and what they are taught is not your melange' of misunderstood buzz words.

But feel free to follow through on your announced intention to ignore that reality, and stick to the media and Google as your authority...
I only hope you never have to find out firsthand how completely wrong you are.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 9:16:43 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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So then the kids were using the property of another, so they were not inhibited of the use of their property by the police. Did the owners/tenants of that property wish for there to be a law to prevent skateboarding? Did it go through due process and become an ordinance or law? If so, then is not the Police Department supposed to carry out their oath to enforce those ordinances or laws? The test of police brutality is not based upon reasonable force, but based upon whether excessive force was used to apprehend the perp and maintain the safety of the officers and by standers. Control of a situation is mandatory in maintaining that safety. Did the Police Officer give an unlawful command? If not then the perps were resisting arrest, and the police upheld their duty to the people that hired them. Hindsight can always be applied to these situations, but when the actions are occuring, the Police must take into account unknowns, assess the possibilities and take action, within a few seconds. If anyone feels they can do better, check if your city allows auxillary police officers and go and volunteer.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Well, according to the Albany City Charter, it is the responsibility of the property owner to maintain from their property to the centerline of the street....

YMMV...




_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 9:20:27 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

If one of the kids had swung the skateboard at the officers head, and then the rest charged at him, what would have been reasonable force to handle that situation?


Again, straight from the police academy, 'the minimum amount of force reasonably needed to eliminate the threat'.

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 9:26:10 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Here is a hypothetical question: If one of the kids had swung the skateboard at the officers head, and then the rest charged at him, what would have been reasonable force to handle that situation?



Police officers face this sort of thing every day.  Goes with the job.  Cop could call for backup.  Cop could do all sorts of things.

The fact that a kid could swing a skateboard at an officers head and the rest charge does not imply carte blanche for a peace officer to beat the crap out of a kid for riding a skateboard.  Extrapolating out on your logic, why dont we just install snipers on every corner to prevent any sort of illegal activity by taking out skateboarders as they zoom down the sidewalk.  A person riding a bicycle is considered to have the same set of laws applicable to what they do as a motor vehicle.  A person riding a skateboard is considered a pedestrian, sort of.  They cannot ride in the street, and they cannot ride on the sidewalk.  Skateboarding is found in this weird stateless and lawless existence.

I am not sure what the answer is, but the video does appear to show an officer using excessive force to deal with a non-threat.

After the Rodney King fiasco, California installed video cameras facing forward in all cop cars.  Video, sound, etc., so now police understand that every action they take will be viewed and reviewed to insure they are doing their job.

Sinergy

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 9:32:00 AM   
bifemaleNeeded


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

AH, so the officer must show that they actually presented a hazard to someone?

I say that because of pre-emptive enforcement is a denial of due process.

Unlike operators of motor vehicles, Skateboarders did not sign an AGREEMENT to abide by the State's Regulation, did they? Therefore, their ability to use THEIR PROPERTY as THEY SEE FIT is guaranteed. 



No criminal signs an agreement to abide by the State's Regulations.  Does that make them able to use their( which they believe your property is) property as they see fit?  The sidewalk was not the property of the skateboarder, it is public property to be use at the agreement to the public.  The public agreement was no skateboarding.  As a citizen of the community you live in you are obligated to follow the laws of the community. 

Or are you one of those that believes what your desires and whims should supersede the rules and common good of the overall community?  The skateboarders was breaking the law, showed great disrespect to the person appointed to enforce those laws, then attempted to avoid being ticketed for breaking those laws.   Showed the potential to engage or harm that appointed officer and resisted when an attempt was made to disengage that threat.

Then again they did not actually hit a anyone,  maybe only scared a few people.  Would it be better to wait until they actually hurt someone before enforcing the laws?  Maybe we should enforce the laws only after someone is hurt?  Before that are they actually hurting someone?  No, just minding their own business, using their property the way they see fit.  The person that never got a drivers licenses "did not sign an AGREEMENT to abide by the State's Regulation, did they? Therefore, their ability to use THEIR PROPERTY as THEY SEE FIT is guaranteed." 

As much as, at times, I would love to see us fall back into anarchy.  I doubt most that promote such drivel would be able to function, much less survive those conditions.


(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 9:40:08 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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 http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Excessive+force+101-a0136166927 

This gives the levels of force, and if you read carefully the proof that a prosecutor must have to prosecute. Each police force will have different policies but at the very bottom of this page you will find the sources for this article.


Orion



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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 9:42:32 AM   
Alumbrado


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I used to frequent a coffee shop staffed by the requisite anarchy proselytising philosophy major, replete with everything Billy Bragg ever recorded on the house system.

He never did understand why I doubled over laughing the day he came in late because he had been down at the police station filing a report that the hundreds of CDs he owned had been stolen by some lowlife.

Not because of his status as victim of cirme, but because he was so indignant that the thief hadn't stopped to consider that they were stealing from an honest to goodness anarchist... they should have known better, and stolen from an elite.


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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 9:44:59 AM   
bifemaleNeeded


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Skateboarding is a sport, a bicycle is a mode of transportation.   Would you snow ski down the sidewalk because there is snow on it?  The sidewalk is for the use of pedestrians.  Laws against certain activities are for the protection of the pedestrian.  You want to engage in a sport, go to a area reserved for that sport.  Don't insist others accept the risk of your chosen sport by insisting it is other then it is.

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 9:46:46 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bifemaleNeeded


No criminal signs an agreement to abide by the State's Regulations.


Of course, this being a LOCAL ORDINANCE, it's not, by definition a Crime....

And you have an absolute moral obligation to resist those laws which are wrong.

And maybe they didn't even scare anyone? I don't see any complainants, excepting the officer with a clear conflict of interest in testifying.

And how someone leaps from respecting property rights to anarchy is beyond me.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/5/2007 9:47:51 AM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 10:07:35 AM   
princessisabella


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KUDOS to the Policeman. Kids now days get away with too much. Yes, I am still a kid myself, and I saw lots of my friends get away with things they shouldn't have. It's time for parents to take more control over their kids and teach them proper manners. The kid was breaking the ordinance against skate boarding. Sure it wasn't a major offense, but if it's against the law then the punishment was justified.  The kid knew he was in the wrong, and if he didn't.... ignorance is not an excuse.

So 2 thumbs up for the officer.

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 10:09:24 AM   
bifemaleNeeded


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: bifemaleNeeded


No criminal signs an agreement to abide by the State's Regulations.


Of course, this being a LOCAL ORDINANCE, it's not, by definition a Crime....

And you have an absolute moral obligation to resist those laws which are wrong.

And maybe they didn't even scare anyone? I don't see any complainants, excepting the officer with a clear conflict of interest in testifying.

And how someone leaps from respecting property rights to anarchy is beyond me.




A crime is a act punishable by law.  So breaking a local ordinance is in fact a crime.

The skateboarders was disrespecting propery rights and violating a local ordinance, your defense of their actions to do so and endanger others, in the disguise of it being their right to do as they please or to protest the ordinance with criminal acts, leads one to believe you promote anarchy.

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 11:36:58 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bifemaleNeeded

Skateboarding is a sport, a bicycle is a mode of transportation.   Would you snow ski down the sidewalk because there is snow on it?  The sidewalk is for the use of pedestrians.  Laws against certain activities are for the protection of the pedestrian.  You want to engage in a sport, go to a area reserved for that sport.  Don't insist others accept the risk of your chosen sport by insisting it is other then it is.


Please provide a link showing the legal distinction between bike riding as a mode of transportation and skateboarding as a sport.

I used to ride my skateboard all over the place to go from point A to point B.

The US legal system really is not set up to allow one to make up the rules of the game as they go along.

Sinergy

p.s.  Unless one is President, of course.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 11:37:21 AM   
exoticroses


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It doesn't take a very bright person to know that when a cop says STOP, you STOP. If you ignore the cop, it tends to piss him/her off. Nothing good ever came from antangonizing  a cop. Whether you love/hate them the fact remains that they are doing a job most folks don't want, and getting way less pay than they deserve. Those ignorant kids are lucky that cop wasn't trigger happy.

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 12:05:39 PM   
GrizzlyBear


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This is the law in most, but not all, states.  Be sure and check your state laws.  The real key to this in the "breaking" part of the phrase.  If your doors and windows are closed and locked and someone breaks them down, it is entering in what the laws often refer to as a "violent and tumultuous manner".  If they break down the door, or break out a window, you are entitled to assume that their intent is to commit a violent felony on your person, and you are entitled to use deadly force to stop them.  Just don't shoot through the door. Wait till they are inside.

If you leave your door unlocked and someone opens it and walks in, you are NOT allowed to presume they intend to commit a violent felony, and you are NOT entitled to use deadly  force, unless they threaten you in other ways such as with a weapon or by demonstrating the intent to take away yours. 

I can think of few weapons that an assailant might carry that are not deadly weapons.  There is no difference between them having a club, and having a gun, save the necessity for having the opportunity to use it, i.e. they have to be close enough and show intent.  A skateboard would certainly qualify as a deadly weapon, if intent were shown to use it as such.  Lifting it in such a way as to able to swing it would demonstrate that.

Anyone who thinks that skateboarders on a busy public sidewalk are not a threat to public safety has never been faced with 3 or 4 of them abreast coming at you at 10-15 miles an hour, nor been nearly knocked down coming out of a doorway as one whizzes by a few inches away.  A collision in a circumstance like that can have deadly consequences.  It basically consists of reckless or negligent endangerment, and is no more a minor infraction than riding a motorcycle at similar speed on that sidewalk would be. 

There may have been problems with groups of skateboarders and complaints about them; the police might have been told to make a greater effort to enforce the skateboard law, Or the officer might even have witnessed the group involved endangering the safety of pedestrians. 

He did pretty much as he was trained to do, he used minimum physical force to subdue potentially armed offenders who were resisting arrest or attempting to escape.  I saw no strangling, just submission holds.  He did not use his baton, or draw his gun, or spray mace indiscriminately.  My vote, he did just fine.  But I see I am in the minority.


_____________________________

GrizzlyBear

"Come to the edge," he said.
They said, "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge," he said.
They came. He pushed them. And they flew.
~Guillaume Apollinaire

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 12:05:43 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

Those ignorant kids are lucky that cop wasn't trigger happy


Summary Executions? Wouldn't be the first or last time.

Last time I checked The Legislature makes the Law.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? - 7/5/2007 12:13:44 PM   
GrizzlyBear


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From: Missoula Montana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Well, according to the Albany City Charter, it is the responsibility of the property owner to maintain from their property to the centerline of the street....

YMMV...




The sidewalk, even though adjacent property owners are required to maintain it, is a public right of way.  The property owners do not "control" it, the city does.  "Control" means to control access to, or behavior on, the property, among other things.  Just try building a fence across the sidewalk, and see how long the city lets it stay up.


_____________________________

GrizzlyBear

"Come to the edge," he said.
They said, "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge," he said.
They came. He pushed them. And they flew.
~Guillaume Apollinaire

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 80
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