RE: Punching your sub/slave?

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KnightofMists -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 7:29:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I know what you mean. Think its just irritating me a bit more as of late. it ebbs and flows.... I find that when I feel that way.. I focus on reading some of the posters that I enjoy. Of course that sometimes back fires on me... since I tend to enjoy the more direct no BS posters and sometimes I stumble on to their own ripping of an idiot and it gets me all fired up again lol.

MadRabbit -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 7:38:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists it gets me all fired up again lol. Sounds like a good time to go punch your slave, being the out of control, woman beating, abuser that you are =)

KnightofMists -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 7:41:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists it gets me all fired up again lol. Sounds like a good time to go punch your slave, being the out of control, woman beating, abuser that you are =) mmmmmmmmmmm damn ... why didn't I consider that.... yeah man... beat the fuck out of them with fists and feets of fury! I am sure I will feel much better after that

MadRabbit -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 7:43:10 PM)
Just remember....if you beat them with a paddle instead...then its ok by everyone!

KnightofMists -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 7:45:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Just remember....if you beat them with a paddle instead...then its ok by everyone! oh hell.. I am a non-conformist! Fuck everyone else!

TigerNINTails -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 7:59:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TigerNINTails In fact, it's partial to my hesitance to use more than grappling or slapping in my rough play, though I can see applications for more martial oriented combativeness in BDSM. quote: Original: Aswad Technically, punching and kicking are martial... "martial" meaning, well... you know. [:D] This is precisely why I said more martial, as (while slaps are part of the myriad of strikes we're taught) slaps are a bit lower on the list, and when I stated a more martial approach, I was speaking specifically of what comes to mind when the vast population thinks of it, which is fists and feet, in many cases. Although, I have to admit that grappling is very martial... One only needs to reference Judo, Jiujutsu, Aido, Aikijutsu, Brazilian Jiujutsu, Hojojiutsu (which is grappling and binding with rope) or even (though I can't remember the proper Japanese name for it) Armor-Throwing. But slaps just seem to be the lessor of the more devastating (outwardly towards damaging tissues) though they can be deadly applied correctly... Or incorrectly. quote: The kidney's, Aswad are something to be avoided at all costs quote: Original: Aswad Didn't I pretty much say that? I believe you did, but I think the reason I called your attention to it, was (at least to me) it seemed like your stance on that region was a little questioning, or wishywashy. Like an unsurety or something. I thought the way I brought it up might sound a little funny, I suppose I should have edited the approach...[&:] In any case, yeah... quote: Bone is funny that way. quote: Original: Aswad I thought it was the cartilage and skin that were growing? The knuckles themselves require about 20-40 times the force of plain bones to break, IIRC. Absolutely... However, as you've also noted, when one conditions by throwing strikes that would most definitely shatter bones, it becomes apparent, that even with knuckles, conditioning will cause minute fractures and chips... This is what causes growth, as an increase of calcium and other minerals are deposited on site. I'm sure ( If you were as I think you were, training in most if not all traditional dojos) you'd have noticed an increase in knuckle circumference from training. And yes, under normal, non-impact conditions, bones don't just grow, but the tendons, sinew and other tissues do, of course, along with cartilege, which wears down and replenishes regularly, providing of course, a correct diet that provides the minerals to allow it. But of course, I could be thinking of cartilege too, but I don't believe we have a lot of that on the upper portion of our knuckles. Feel free of course, correcting me if I'm wrong. And what does IIRC mean? I've seen you use it alot, but I'm at a loss for the definition. quote: There is no swordsman more dangerous, than the one who doesn't know how to use it. Ow. I just had mental images of these guys at katana conventions who really just want one that will look nice on their fireplace or something, pulling the sword and misjudging the pull, or flailing about with it. Usually gets you kicked out of a good convention, if I understand correctly. The ones they show off at conventions are usually way too pricey for me at this stage. quote: I'd personally suggest, that if you really think that punching and kicking can't occur safely in an environment that isn't "abusive"... Go join a Dojo... Become enlightened.[:D] quote: Original: Aswad That's actually a very good point. Or even just visiting one. A good demonstration, aimed at a less mainstream audience, is also a viable choice, I guess. Yes, I agree... But that's also the point that I was making is that in an untrained sense, hand to hand in a BDSM environment is very dangerous... No more or less than using the implements we use in WIITWD. Going to watch, to see the dynamic, might raise enough interest to actually participate, to experience positive, to take it to a personal level and of course, do it safely, and then we wouldn't have so many people thinking that it's bad for the hand, but good for the crop... It's the personal responsibility of it all... Anyway, I'm out. Peace.

velvetears -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 8:09:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 tho perhaps there are those out there with similar backgrounds, who are able to engage in the same activities now (punching and kicking) in a positive and healthy way because the motivations and intentions are different, and who knows, it may even be therapeutic. i can't discount that they engage in that kind of kink as a way to work through their past abuse - like turning a negative into a positive. i just know for myself it doesn't work like that, it would be counter productive for me to reexperience that kind of experience. Thank you prop as well as kyra, erin and mist for answering my question as to past childhod abuse. It would make sense to me that more then likely someone who could engage in this kind of play would more then likely not have any negative history regarding those kinds of experiences. But as you say prop, maybe so do as a form of self therapy. i am not sure if my past history had anything to do with my developing into a masochist later in life - maybe experiencing pain in a more "controlled" way for myself is a way of working through it, or maybe it just was one more factor that added to my wiring for masochism. i used to think about it and wonder, now i just sort of accept it and enjoy who i am.

velvetears -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 8:22:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists As a teenager, I was raped and to watch or experience that type of scene I think would put me in a bad head space. I am not able to communicate "no" in anyway, even if it is playful, without some serious emotional backlash if the action doesn't stop. That makes resistence play somewhat tricky for me, but I know that many others enjoy it and I am glad that they have a way to express their kink and find pleasure. Knight's Kyra i understand where you are coming from as i think it's very similar to the head space i would be in if i had to witness a "punching & kicking" session. Just don't need to go there.

Aswad -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 8:48:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TigerNINTails This is precisely why I said more martial, [...] Ah. Emphasizing "more" makes it a lot clearer. Thanks. quote: Although, I have to admit that grappling is very martial... ~nod~ quote: But slaps just seem to be the lessor of the more devastating (outwardly towards damaging tissues) though they can be deadly applied correctly... Or incorrectly. The latter is kind of my point in some of this. People have less problem with face-slapping, it seems, than punching. This despite punches being easier for an untrained person to aim and pull reasonably well. And an untrained face slap will, as far as I know, generally cause some (light) trauma to the brain. Repeat it often, or over much time, and I doubt it will be healthy. Given proper use of the neck, however, even a headbutt can be mostly "defused". But I did not get the impression that this was something people had trained. I guess there is an ingrained perception of face-slaps as harmless. Myself, I'd treat it as any other blow to the head: break the arm. If it's harmful, then it's serious: I try to care well for my brain. If not, it's still a physical attack. I've never given anyone due cause to slap me, as far as I know. quote: I believe you did, but I think the reason I called your attention to it, was (at least to me) it seemed like your stance on that region was a little questioning, or wishywashy. Like an unsurety or something. I thought the way I brought it up might sound a little funny, I suppose I should have edited the approach...[&:] Ah, sorry; I might have been clearer. I don't want to seem like I'd like to interfere in her relationship. If her Daddy thinks it makes for an acceptable risk, and she's okay with it, fine by me. It hasn't been much of an issue for me, though. Kidneys aren't that viable for rapid incapacitation, nor for restraint / warning. Those are pretty much the only two modes of self-defense I have found myself wanting. One for the "leave me alone" scenarios, one for the "it's me or you" scenarios. Kidneys is neither here nor there, sort of. quote: I'm sure ( If you were as I think you were, training in most if not all traditional dojos) you'd have noticed an increase in knuckle circumference from training. I have trained in a few dojos apart from the one I'm currently at. The longest I stayed in any other than the one I'm in now, was Wado ryu. Currently, I am training in one koryu dojo, unrelated to the ones I've done in the past. I am not actively cross-training, but I have plenty of friends in various other styles, though. But, yeah, most styles leave a distinct impression on the knuckles, etc. In fact, in some cases you can tell the style up front by how the hands are. Same thing with muscle distribution and body dynamics. To take Karate, Shotokan and Wado ryu give quite different builds and dynamics. For instance, the upper body mass is different, and I've noticed the instep tends to carry over. quote: But of course, I could be thinking of cartilege too, but I don't believe we have a lot of that on the upper portion of our knuckles. Feel free of course, correcting me if I'm wrong. I'd have to ask someone with an anatomy textbook handy, or who knows it by heart. If you'd like me to do so, drop me a PM to remind me. I think the cartilage extends to the top. quote: And what does IIRC mean? I've seen you use it alot, but I'm at a loss for the definition. "If I Recall Correctly". Means I think I'm stating the best of my knowledge, but am not certain. I.e.: "to the best of my recollection". quote: Yes, I agree... But that's also the point that I was making is that in an untrained sense, hand to hand in a BDSM environment is very dangerous... No more or less than using the implements we use in WIITWD. ~nod~ Skill without control would be worse, but I have only encountered that with boxing and kickboxing. That is not to say those don't teach it, just that those are the only I've seen fail to do so, ever. The human body can be surprisingly hardy, and surprisingly fragile. It can also be surprisingly strong, even without the training. The difference can be more than an order of magnitude, but the distinction is between a civilian discharging a single round from a light handgun, and military personell firing a three-round burst from an assault rifle. Sure, there's a difference, but it's pretty academic unless you're actually trying to hurt someone, or trying not to. Control is the first step, making sure that level of force is not brought to bear. Skill is the second step, again opening the door on more force by making it possible to use it in a way that is safe(r). quote: Going to watch, to see the dynamic, might raise enough interest to actually participate, to experience positive, to take it to a personal level and of course, do it safely, and then we wouldn't have so many people thinking that it's bad for the hand, but good for the crop... ~nod~ And it might do some good to compare with Arnis or somesuch, as well. (I'll admit my knowledge of it is limited to talking with a Kali person.) A cane is no toy. It's a weapon. Using it as a toy, however, is possible, just as for hand-to-hand. The level of skill required is higher for a cane, though. Realizing that hand-to-hand can be safe is one side of the equation. Realizing that the tools we use are just as potentially dangerous is the other side of it.

mistoferin -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 9:02:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin I believe that he was responding to daddysprop's statement that she is punched and kicked out of anger and as a means of discipline and punishment. I believe it is not unreasonable to connect such a statement with domestic violence. Domestic violence occurs without consent. Discipline and punishment with consent is a different matter. Some use it, some don't. Some wait until they've cooled off, some don't. Whether they use a belt, or spanking, or punching, or whatever, doesn't really matter. Ummm, my post was a speculation as to why MellowSir may have posted as he did. But you are correct about consent. Then again, once you have that consent you then have to determine if that consent can be considered valid.

KnightofMists -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 9:05:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin But you are correct about consent. Then again, once you have that consent you then have to determine if that consent can be considered valid. aaaawwwwww man... why is there always someone that just has to make it harder.. but yeah dang it anyways.. I agree... consent is of little value if the person doesn't have the capacity or properly informed in the first place.

daddysprop247 -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 9:46:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Then again, once you have that consent you then have to determine if that consent can be considered valid. ..and who (or what) can be the supreme judge in determining whether or not the consent of a particular individual is valid?

mistoferin -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 10:02:06 PM)
I believe that in order to make such a decision we have to take into account many factors. Sometimes an inability to give valid consent is very obvious, sometimes even documented....sometimes it's not. I believe that we have to use our gut feelings, our common sense and carefully consider all pertinent information that we have available that is relative to the individual giving consent. I believe that it is imperative that we make the most informed decision we are capable of when we are assessing one's ability to consent.

TigerNINTails -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/6/2007 10:42:00 PM)
Aswad, Absolutely, on the Arnis and Kali points. Escrima as well... In fact, the redondo strike of Arnis (or am I thinking of Escrima?) when I'm in a correct position to use it, with a cane or crop delivers a wonderful stripe... But it's also a little unnatural for the size and orientation of the tool... Some of the drawing strikes, such as the cross body circles, which are used in paired sparring practice, especially if you're actually doing something with the other hand, whether it's occupied or not, creates an interesting rhythm and series of sensations... While no-one has done that technique specifically to me, I'd think that it would seem, almost as if someone was arbitrarily beating the crap out the submissive... Because the movements, while not necessarily having to carry much weight would stripe and contact repeatedly very fast. I see people do that with heavy floggers sometimes, but I've never seen anyone really do it bare handed... I've used drumming rhythms in slapping strikes across the buttocks, and I'll be damned if it doesn't get to a point where it elicits some screaming within 3 minutes nearly every time. Used in less fleshy, or more sensitive spots, the response would likely happen much faster. But that requires, also, a lot of focus and energy too... Control of the limbs is a prime factor, obviously... You have to be alert of the angle of impact, the force of the impact, how much retraction, or how much dig you're going to apply, how much of your own bodyweight to lend to it, or pull from it, etc. So I agree also that control is really the predominant factor to safety, because for all the techniques you could learn, to understand the movement without understanding the control of that movement would do most people into the practice of striking with bare hands or fists and feet, more harm than good... Both the Top and the bottom. I also was grinning when you were talking about the differences between one school and another, and how the body begins to develop, using certain muscle groups ad infinitum and the effects specific schools have on the hands... We used to practice that, actually, and that was go out and look at different people on the street... I had gotten pretty good at identifying when someone had a sports injury, from weight lifting, or football or something, judging by how they carried their shoulder, or took a step. Good conversation. Peace.

Alumbrado -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/7/2007 5:38:04 AM)
Arnis and Escrima are interchangeable names used to refer to the same basic group of Filipino martial arts.. An Escrimador is one who practices Arnis, or Escrima, or Arnis-Escrima Kali may be a modern Americanized term.

TigerNINTails -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/7/2007 6:21:21 AM)
Ahh! Thanks! I had a brief stint with the sticks and balisong, but didn't stick with it... Heheh... No pun intended... LOL... I'm much more familiar with the Japanese arts than the Filipino, but it's a good art. Thanks again for the info. Peace.

Aswad -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/7/2007 7:05:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Ummm, my post was a speculation as to why MellowSir may have posted as he did. I got that. I was just pointing out that his reasoning was flawed. quote: But you are correct about consent. Then again, once you have that consent you then have to determine if that consent can be considered valid. Of course. I have delved quite a bit into that topic during the course of other threads. More so than most posters here appear comfortable with. Either way, the requirements for consent are the same, whether it's a whip or a fist.

Aswad -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/7/2007 7:09:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 ..and who (or what) can be the supreme judge in determining whether or not the consent of a particular individual is valid? Depends on how you define "judge" and "consent", I guess. I try not to judge how other people evaluate consent. For me, however, I stick with something close to the medical definition of informed consent. Others will use different standards of validity for consent, obviously.

KnightofMists -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/7/2007 7:29:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 ..and who (or what) can be the supreme judge in determining whether or not the consent of a particular individual is valid? Everyone and Anyone that chooses to express and opinion of the given situation. Now whether that given opinion expressed is of any value or should be considered is another question all together. I suspect that we will listen to the opinions expressed when that opinion can and does have consequences upon our lives. When we are dealing with our personal intimate relationships.... it is seldom that anyone outside of that relationship will have a consequence upon us. However, that doesn't mean it will not happen.

kittinSol -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/7/2007 7:45:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol This is an aside, but as I read through your posts, I have increasing difficulty in believing you ever do anything that would warrant any kind of violent punishment from anybody. Depends on the standard she is being held to, doesn't it? I don't see her making most of the kinds of mistakes I would worry about. But other people may have different standards, and that is clearly the case for her Daddy. Nothing wrong with that. Without meaning to sound rude, Aswad, I must tell you that my comment was addressed to prop; obviously as this is a public forum, anyone's welcome to argue about it - but it wasn't meant as a subject for controversy. It was a personal musing about an individual and how she comes across to me. Thank you.

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