RE: trying to understand sadism

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TigerNINTails -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 3:06:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HalloweenWhite Not sure where the S.S.C comes into play if a sadist just likes inflicting pain because they just do. I'd only ever be interested in inflicting pain for the sub's enjoyment, to Me that's what power exchange is all about-mutual enjoyment. Actually, S.S.C. (Which, for those that are unfamiliar, refers to the mantra "Safe, Sane & Consensual or Consenting) meaning that WIITWD is not to be risked by engaging in unsafe, or irrational or non consenting forms of Bondage, Discipline, Sadism or Masochism... Regardless of whether a sadist enjoys it just for the sheer joy of it or not, "just because they do", is irrelevent when it's put into the context of BDSM. S.S.C and R.A.C.K. (Again, for those not knowing is Risk Aware Consensual Kink) are very much in relevance at this point. Any time that anything is done in this lifestyle on any level, those two philosophies regarding the safety of both partners and the consenting status of both partners applies. As for the definition of being a sadist, no, it doesn't have anything to do with it whatsoever. When it comes down to it, there are plenty of sadists running around even now, that don't even look in the direction of BDSM, other than perhaps in the sense to find unwary prey. As for a power exchange being done for mutual enjoyment... Heh... I think there must be different definitions as to what a power exchange is all about then... For me and my petto, yes, it's a bit about enjoyment, but there are other levels involved. While I might enjoy control in my power exchanges, it's as much about the control as the enjoyment of it, for example, and enough about the control, even when I don't enjoy it (for example, there are times when I'm absolutely not into punishing my slave, but it must be done, partially for consistency, as for her own discipline and well being). And during those times, I am not necessarily being sadistic, but I'm exhibiting control, utilizing that and enforcing my will on someone else, even absence mutual enjoyment of the situation. Power exchange is ultimately about giving up control, and taking control, depending on your perspective, Top or bottom. It's not about establishing a bed of rose petals equality. Nowhere in it's description imlied or explicit, anywhere I've read is there anything about mutual enjoyment, though I'm sure, on deeper levels that may well come into play. After all, if we didn't at least to some level enjoy what we do, even during the rougher periods, we wouldn't do it. That's human nature. But ultimately, it's only a name given a dynamic between two or more people. To exchange power by giving up that which one normally has, to another whom they trust to guide them with the power they've just recieved. This comes from minor levels to complete and total exchange, which is the level I tend towards. TPE... Power Exchange also has little if anything at all to do with sadism. Someone can have a TPE relationship with another and whether pain is inflicted or not, never enjoy dishing it out. A lot of Goreans hold to, or attempt to hold to this ethos, using the infliction of pain only in punishment or disciplinary scenarios. Which the slave shouldn't be enjoying anyway. I'm out. Peace.

LadyHugs -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 3:08:04 PM)
SimplyMichael, Ladies and Gentlemen; You are well known for making anything I say --personal and not remaining on the topics. In addition, I don't recall--back in the beginning or presently --that you were the 'total and all authority over the BDSM community.' Forgotten sir? That Sadism, non-consentual torture, suffering, injury and then death has not only been from political and or religous but; the case of the IRC 'Slave Master' (Not to be confused with Master SlaveMaster --presenter, speaker, faculty member of Butchman's Academy), where he interacted in the 'community' where under the guise of consensual BDSM, M/s and S&M --caused several 'willing' females to die. They were murdered. They showed their sufferings -- This case was all personal--not political or religous; People can look up the murders by SlaveMaster/Slave Master in the mid-west. It considered history now. As far as the term pushing the envelope -- that term has been used many times as to expand the boundaries physically, mentally, emotionally and or spiritually. And for the loud bold words you choose as to make it a personal attack on me and insult me-- the selective 'reading' and twisting things about --most of my posts proffers the extra effort in working on relationships, working on communication, working on listening and working on patience. SimplyMichael, as your alias CrappyDom wrote quite a while back of which you wrote about the painful experiences by another's hand and how it changed you as a person, changed your attitude and why you are strong on certain areas within the scene. YOUR case is the prime example of how sadism can go very wrong. As a Dominant, I apologized for such happening to you and though I wasn't the one who done the wrong deeds -- I wanted to extend my sorrow over your experiences. I know that the tools aka toys we use are not the problem--people are. All I get from you are insults and a personal vendetta/revenge behavior. Despite your personal experinces which sour your tastes to things like flogging and such--every person has experiences that change them forever. Some are good, some are bad --some still reserve their judgment on it. Everybody who has been changed in a negative way because of people assuming and doing things without knowing the consequences are those who I have concerns about. Education and knowledge, independent of any one and all individuals are the empowerment individuals need. Another thing to proffer for consideration SimplyMichael -- men and women do not always have the same perspective on things. You call me a threat to others, a false profit and such--it is all personal prejudice --documented in Archives under this current name you use and CrappyDom. If I am a threat, false prophet and so on--then please explain to me/others -- why my urges for individuals who are asking for help and or opinion and or advice creates me a villan when I refer them to support and or education groups, find avenues that educate people and share knowledge? You do the same thing as do many other people-- give your opinion, advice and share your experiences. I do understand why some feel it is necessary to attack people that are not in your personal circle of friends or those you cannot control or bully. I do remember this murderer on IRC chatrooms 'SlaveMaster aka Slave Master.' Slave Master aka SlaveMaster came into chat rooms and started pointing fingers, accusing others of being false profits, acted like a expert and made every effort to disqualify what seasoned women had to say--especially the strong Female Dominants, slaves and or submissives. Perhaps people have forgotten, that those women who went to see 'SlaveMaster' and listened to what I had to say and others --came back alive and not in oil barrels--dead. I've never said I was an expert in all things --yet you claim I repeatedly do --that is your words--not mine. It is up to others to determine the levels of expertise. Knowing something --as all people do, no matter how little or how much --those who share may make a difference in a person's life. I can disagree and or agree, with everything in between does make a difference as I take a look through my experiences. People made their decisions when traveling to see 'SlaveMaster' in the mid-west. The consequences of not listening to any but this 'SlaveMaster' who charmed his victims as he behaved like the 'savior' against everybody else --his truth and others were not true but 'false' or a threat to M/s, etc. Those ladies ended up dead. Another incident, where in this area in general; I'll use 'Bill' as a name for this incident -- To which he was a Dominant and in BDSM gatherings and on line; did all he could to have ladies not listen to others, to include my words of advice, opinions and or experiences. He was a sadist just out to hurt people and injure them. It was all a personal motive. He didn't care about these women--he non-consentually raped them, physically assaulted them and in one case left a woman for her young boy to find, naked, bloody, tied and left them once he used them. He made his rounds in DC, Maryland, West Virginia and all over Virginia. He also stalked women and was an opportunist. He walked amoung our community. He didn't care if he picked up a chair in an assembly of people at a BDSM gathering, threatening to 'kill' a lady. He had attempted to besmirch her reputation, claimed she was a false prophet and ...well, he is banned from the groups in the four states that I know of. He was reportedly in Florida at one time and in the west coast area. He emerged himself in BDSM groups and selected his victims. He is still out there. How many more 'SlaveMasters' and this guy who I've named Bill as to give a name to the person?? What about the female versions? A FemDom in Virginia had personal designs to 'abuse' the trust and sadistic--harmed a lad, all under the guise of BDSM, S&M and M/s and or D/s. This woman has a long history of coming in and out of BDSM groups as to pick victims of her's. Sadism does not have to be physical--it can be mental, emotional and or spiritual. Her then victim, having overheard my name in which this FemDom was getting really scared that I was going to join the same group to her 'buddies.' She had victimized several people previously, to include attempting to injure my submissive at the time where it was a non-consensual 'S&M' scene. (One of those walk up and taking a whip that she couldn't handle and didn't know how to flog at that time--started to beat the crap out of my sub Jim-she was not invited in the scene ever--yet, she imposed herself on Jim). So, in 2005 when this FemDom had dropped out due to her modus operandi and abuses, had resurfaced; I told this slave as to why this FemDom hated me so much--much like you SimplyMichael; She too made claims that I was this horrible, unskilled and poser Dominant. She iscolated these people and then did her sadistic work on them. Injured, some forever hold scars--they came back 'after the fact' and were sorry to not heed my advice, listen to my experiences and or opinions. They had to learn the hard way--to research, research and research. They had to learn the hard way, of not listening to my advice of seeking information on their own and or gain experiences on their own as to make it THEIR first hand knowledge. To be independent of mine or any others. The latest victim of this FemDom who sucks her victims dry in many ways--is free now, he is learning how much freedom to seek, ask, experience and making judgments for his own welfare and happiness is important to me and others like me, who just want people to find their happiness --not their misery. Since the victim escaped via car driven by a fellow FemDom, the entire network of Female Dominants within the group I belong have seen this lad change in so many positive ways. Unfortunately, nightmares continue and past horrors are triggered by certain things during a scene. This lad knows now what is the difference between plain cruelty and abuse vs. modern sadism/sexual sadism and masochism. It is not my sole endeavor with this lad--it is group effort made up of Female Dominants. Oh, by the way SimplyMichael -- this lad is from a state where you have laughed at, painted them all as 'stupid' and assume they hadn't learned anything where I presented as well as laughed at their small group. He wasn't a part of that group in West Virginia but, his gentle nature is born and raised in West Virginia. He is a good slave. He was entrapped and imprisoned, iscolated and fed a bunch of BS like you spew of me, and a few others also -- he got hurt big time and he is a masochist. He knew of my reputation and came to me for help and support. I gave it to him freely as well as from others--my peers--I don't do things 'alone.' These examples of which have demonstrated how this community can be a gathering of prey for those who don't care about the other person. These three examples that I am aware of example why I express my concerns as to share. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

SimplyMichael -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 4:40:37 PM)
LadyHugs, What you infered from my various experiences would be amusing coming from someone who was new but for someone with your supposed insight and experience is well scary. I don't like floggers because I think they smack of service to the submissive and while I found the experience with the officer of SOJ annoying, it wasn't a big deal then and certainly isn't now and was never anything damaging. What DOES piss me off are people who speak in absolutes and especially idiotic absolutes, something you do quite regularly. I couldn't stomach reading all of your post but I have a feeling others will roast you alive for this one as well and PERHAPS you will see that my objections to you are shared by THIS community and that might finally sink in that I am NOT attacking you because of personal bias but because I HAVE A VALID POINT!

MistressNoName -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 4:48:11 PM)
Seems to me that with so many vanillas out there stereotyping us and wiitwd, that we would try to refrain from doing the same ourselves. Being a sadist can mean many things. One thing it does not necessarily have to mean is a person who doesn't care about the individual that is bottoming to him or her. I have called myself a sadist...that does not mean I am without caring...But I said that in my previous post. I'm saying it again because I guess I'm kinda resenting the posts that are trying to paint all sadists this same shade of non-caring color. It's misleading and perpetuates the stereotype, the Hollywood and porn industry image of the mean, ole sinister Top who wants nothing but the blood of some young innocent virgin...and doesn't care if he/she has to kill, damage, traumatize the victim in the process. That's just not how people who follow the principles of SSC and RACK operate. Yes, there are some anti-social, mentally ill individuals out there whose brains are wired in such a way that non-consensual torture turns them on. I'm not one of those...and I don't think anyone else who is posting on this board would qualify as one either. Of course, I don't know you all personally, so I can't say for certain. But, the people I see posting here, I have also seen posting elsewhere talking about issues of safety and talking about skills and the caring and love they feel for their D/s partners. So why then, I wonder, are some people bringing up these examples of obviously mentally ill individuals who are not about practicing SSC/RACK BDSM and lumping them into the same category with BDSM practitioners who ARE practicing these principles? Engaging in a consensual practice that includes the giving and receiving of pain, does not necessarily mean that the pain-recipient must enjoy the pain...only that the individual consent to the experience. Ideally, that individual will also have a good understanding of the risks involved in consenting to that experience. But, should the bottom have to enjoy the pain?...goodness no! But not enjoying pain does not necessarily mean that the bottom will not consider the experience positive or satisfying - only that they did not like the pain. And that, imo, is okay. I just think sometimes we are our own worse enemies. We don't have to wait for the vanillas to condemn us, we are doing it quite well to ourselves. Maybe I've been reading the posts wrong and I'm not understanding...but that is what I am seeing happening here. MNN

TigerNINTails -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 6:17:03 PM)
MistressNoName, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you've posted above... I especially think it was out of place to begin a worriesome rant about public (bdsm community) safety when the OP was seeking an understanding of what constitutes sadism. Personally, I think that it's okay to disagree, but for someone to blatantly call someone a liar, or become aggressively argumentative towards someone they don't agree with, and attempt to slam their credibility, when in all reality, they have no experience but the boards of the person in question... At least so far as I've seen, thus far. And I might add, there is much in body language, tone, etc. that is lost when all we have is text... Is outright bullshit... Simply Michael... I'm actually sorry for you that you can't see through to the concern that LadyHugs is exhibiting here.... Albeit a bit out of place. Lay off Brah... You aint the kink police. I don't believe that she was trying to lump ALL in one big caveat. Further, I think that the more you nitpick about it, the worse you look. Seriously... Grow the fuck up homey. LadyHugs, neither are you [kink police], but I can understand that your real life, every day experiences also give you some insights to it. They might well be better understood though, if you wouldn't couch the ideas in such outlandish languaging. Speak plainly. Noone will look down on you for it. Both of you need to keep it on topic... The subject is sadism... Not safety and it certainly isn't "don't listen to that person, even though the only reason I have for that, is I don't like her, and couldn't understand what she said." Because that's all I've gotten out of Michaels rampant picking at something that doesn't matter overall. What she had to say has some valid points also. Those points are that when dealing with sadists, make sure you know by way of careful research and negotiation just how and who these people are, and take proper precautions before meeting and where you meet, etc. Everyone here has to take what they hear from anyone with the grain of salts that they are due, considering we don't know one another from adam, in general. We can't, as it's been stated before, verify credentials on the net. The overwhelming consensus has to be, that we have to look out for one another, and that we also must be on the look out for the truly false prophets... Though I'm not sure "false prophet" in any sense is a good word to apply to anyone saying anything on a BDSM board. It's a religious term, that on the overall, doesn't have much place in this lifestyle. Not to say that some people don't use B&D and S&M for spiritual goals, but come on now, that's getting absofuckinlutely ridiculous, when anyone you disagree with is termed a "false prophet"... But those people that would be predatory... seditious... harmful... Beware that your explosive criticism of someone else doesn't threaten to drive you to the depths of the people that LadyHugs has mentioned, and those people are well documented. When someone continues to rant and banter how someone else doesn't know something, it's more and more likely they begin to believe or already do, that they are the only one with the truth... And that's fuckin dangerous. Serial rapists, murderers, class 1 sexual sadists, etc. etc. all fall into this rather disgusting category. I mean come on people, let's not ignore the fact that these fuckwits exist. I grant that there were some major confusing points in what LadyHugs had initially stated, but I thought she'd cleared those up rather well, and there's no reason not to take her more concise explanations at face value, and read them as they are. Concise explanations. Well, a concise explanation. No matter how "Absolute" she had previously stated it. Anyone can make that mistake. How's that for an absolute. Am I an evil unknowing bastard now? I think not... Well, some sluts think I'm evil... But they love me that way. [:D] There are places for absolutes, whether people believe in them or not is inconsequential. Even in our community, there should be some fuckin absolutes, though there aren't. Not even SSC and RACK are absolute, though most communities accept those, but there's little definition to what defines "safe" or "rational" or "risk aware"... The only fuckin absolutes are what's legal in the US when it's concerning BDSM and very little is, except that consent makes it legal, so long as sound mind and judgement are present to make the call for consent. Even that sometimes doesn't save your sorry ass from the can. That and when you hit somebody with nearly anything, it can and most times does hurt. The point is this... It's ridiculous to be at one anothers throats when we are a community. No community has all persons getting along 100% of the time, and that's just the way of it. Suck it up, that's fuckin life. But I think after stating that you disagree, to continue (And this is for BOTH of you, LadyHugs AND Michael) to berate one another (which I've seen little of that from LadyHugs) and to pound that disagreement when it was heard already and understood by everyone and their damned neighbors dog is absofuckinlutely childish. Let It The Fuck Go! Leave It! Everyone has an opinion, and just like assholes, most of them stink. This was just mine. Peace.

SimplyMichael -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 6:41:30 PM)
Tiger, I ain't your fucking "bruh" and I wouldn't recomend you calling me "homey" in real life. I don't answer to anyone here but the moderators. I am quite comfortable with the likes of you and LadyHugs thinking I am an idiot, puts me in great company. So far you have been busy sucking up the the dominant women in the thread and I prefer not to suck up to anyone. My history here (which includes actually meeting other forum participants) is one of admitting when I am wrong, complimenting people I don't like when they say something intelligent, and in short speaking my mind. One of the reasons I love Collarme is that the normal posturing and self agrandizing bullshit is frowned upon and that real life people make up the bulk of participants. "One true way" bullshit, "the old days were better" stupidity, and other nonsense is kept to a minimum. LadyHugs started out in this thread saying that if the bottom didn't enjoy "it" then it was abuse, and due to criticism from MANY compared BDSM to Catholic torture chambers, and is now backtracked to saying we need people like her because there are people like Slavemaster whatever his name is. What allows idiots in the scene is idiots who post bullshit lies about the old days, who act like there are all knowing people in the scene, and that trainers are a good idea, LadyHugs subscribes to all three and more. So you can do whatever you want, but don't fool yourself into thinking you can get me to do anything!

Faramir -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 6:49:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael LadyHugs, .... I couldn't stomach reading all of your post... I tried like two times to read her posts but they were like four sentence ideas stretched to dissertation length. I just skip them now to avoid that eye-glazing sensation.

KatyLied -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 6:54:48 PM)
Well Michael, not everyone can say they've been compared to John Edward Robinson. It must be your lucky day. ::insert eye rolling emote here::

KnightofMists -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 6:56:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Faramir quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael LadyHugs, .... I couldn't stomach reading all of your post... I tried like two times to read her posts but they were like four sentence ideas stretched to dissertation length. I just skip them now to avoid that eye-glazing sensation. Ditto... I am not a masocist... it just hurt to much to try an get through mmmmmmmmmmmm but I am a Sadist... and I know a couple girls that I could instruct to give me a summary of it. G

KnightofMists -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 7:23:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael I couldn't stomach reading all of your post but I have a feeling others will roast you alive for this one as well well... a person needs to get through.. it then translate it and then...... fuck it too much work quote: and PERHAPS you will see that my objections to you are shared by THIS community and that might finally sink in that I am NOT attacking you because of personal bias but because I HAVE A VALID POINT! To be blunt... I doubt it. She will will interpert your statements as personal bias regardless of the points you raise. I can't recall that I ever read anything from her that I like. In fact, I generally avoid entirely anything she writes. I tend to be lazy most times and respond to comments that others have seen in her gibberish. Because of that, I am then obligated to go back into her posts and make the effort to read her post. She is seldom an easy read and often I am spending much more time trying to translate what the hell she trying to say than to consider what she is saying. It's not so much the writing style as the content itself... there is none on most occassions. It reminds me a balloon that is filled but when you take the hot air out.. well not much is left. Is this a personal bias.. yes it is. I do have a personal bias of distaste in reading or engaging much of what she says or tries to say. I just don't see much value in what she contributes. Of course, some may get some value. Just because I don't get any.. doesn't mean some don't. That being said... I will take exception to comments that I find to be poorly thought out or poorly expressed at the least. I agree you have some Valid Points... But also think you have a personal bias. But your personal bias is does not make your points any less valid even thou she wishes they would be. Yes, sometimes a person's personal bias affects their judgement. However, in most cases, I have found your personal bias not be a deciding factor on the value of your points but only the manner in which you express them. In other words, it is my opinion your personal bias causes you to much more harsh and direct towards her than you might be with someone where you have less of a personal bias. Of course, you have a rep for being rather harsh and direct when someone expresses thoughts and opinions that is just Fucking ridiculus. mmmmmmm could that be my personal bias coming out?

goddessAVA -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 7:24:14 PM)
Inflicting pain can make Me so wet I drip down my leg-especially a no holds barred spanking! However, the person I am playing with has to agree to either a consentual non consent(I know this is an oxymoron) or even better-be so excited and enthralled with Me that he pushes his limits GREATLY to please Me. Either way, I get very excited, but I have to be in the mood or it is no good. Sometimes a simple boot and foot worshipping are all I want. Great Topic!

Histigress -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 7:25:19 PM)
clicking away from this thread before it gets me into trouble... bites her tongue, before becoming UN slave-like

happypervert -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 7:33:23 PM)
quote: What allows idiots in the scene is idiots who post bullshit lies about the old days, who act like there are all knowing people in the scene, and that trainers are a good idea, LadyHugs subscribes to all three and more. Poor, poor Michael. Perhaps if he had been trained by the Old Guard in the ways of the European Houses, he would be able to grasp the wisdom that LadyHugs offers us all.. edited to add: I'm clowning around. There's always someone who may not get the joke.

goddessAVA -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 7:45:09 PM)
oops-realized I was in the wrong realm-if only sub men would ask these interesting questions! I always say I am an old Italian man at heart..........maybe this was Fruedian

MadRabbit -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 7:45:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: happypervert I'm clowning around. There's always someone who may not get the joke. And thats why this place is so entertaining...

TigerNINTails -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 9:30:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Tiger, I ain't your fucking "bruh" and I wouldn't recomend you calling me "homey" in real life. Right... And I aint your shit box... Neither is anyone else. So far as your recommendation... Or negative recommendation, rather... I don't see what you'd do about it that I couldn't handle. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael I don't answer to anyone here but the moderators. I am quite comfortable with the likes of you and LadyHugs thinking I am an idiot, puts me in great company. Actually, you misunderstand... Which is apparent you do this frequently... I wasn't expecting you to answer, I actually was hoping you'd just shut the fuck up. And before you go off about how I was calling you an idiot, I don't believe I said that anywhere in my post. And don't pretend to assume that you know that I think you're an idiot... I really could care less about that. Or her... Or you... But you're not contributing at this point either. And now, as a result, drawing me off from contributing further as well. But just to let you know... No, I don't think (and never have) that you're an idiot... quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael So far you have been busy sucking up the the dominant women in the thread and I prefer not to suck up to anyone. I haven't been sucking up to anyone whatsoever. You obviously haven't been reading my posts, except in rushed hind-sight that I called you on something... And you obviously don't know how to admit when you're wrong, or you wouldn't be acting the fuckwit right now. I've been simply responding to a thread I thought was interesting... Agreeing where I was in agreement and adroitly stating my difference when I wasn't. I've never been one to suck up... Just speaking my mind... As for the women I've responded to... Yes... They had good points... Most I agree with... But I've also responded to as many male respondents to this thread as well, or hadn't you noticed? But you and LadyHugs are taking it way the fuck off track, and most of it is definitely due to some inherent issue that you seem to have with attempting to understand a view point that isn't yours, when it's couched in language you can't understand. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael My history here (which includes actually meeting other forum participants) is one of admitting when I am wrong, complimenting people I don't like when they say something intelligent, and in short speaking my mind. Let's not misunderstand each other. I don't give a fuck what your history here is. When I see someone acting like a fucktard for the purpose of being a fucktard, rather than being the bigger man and walking from it, I'm going to call them... How did Merc put it? To task? Yes, that's what it was. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael One of the reasons I love Collarme is that the normal posturing and self agrandizing bullshit is frowned upon and that real life people make up the bulk of participants. Well, there are problably a lot of frowns pointed in your direction then... And why are you "self agrandizing"? I don't give a fuck about your ego... And I don't see how any Dom's ego should depend on the thoughts of or the ripping down of someone they don't agree with. And I see that there are lots of real life people here. There are also just as many motherfuckers who are "still typing". And about a third to two thirds of the total lot of both groups, I'd wager, though I've no figures to prove the point, that are still learning the basics. When you continue to smash on someone (which, I have to say, my experience of the woman is not very high) who might have that piece of information they're looking for, and they see your attitude, how the hell are they going to expect that they can say a damn thing around here, without getting ripped apart for their view points? Or their queries? Hmmm? I mean, I found your statement of why you won't use a flogger completely ignorant of reality, and wanted to ask precisely what colour the sky is on your lonely little planet, but didn't... Why? It's not worth my time. And it wouldn't have helped anyone else either, to learn that there's more than one way to swing a flogger, and not all of the ways are "serviceable" to slave flesh... Not in the way that I would have presented it. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael "One true way" bullshit, "the old days were better" stupidity, and other nonsense is kept to a minimum. As it should be. There is no one true way in BDSM... But there is a "golden rule" in life... Might you be able to tell me what that is? I really would like to see the other stupidity kept to a minimum, which is what started this in the first place. Stupid is, as stupid does, or so I'm told. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael LadyHugs started out in this thread saying that if the bottom didn't enjoy "it" then it was abuse, and due to criticism from MANY compared BDSM to Catholic torture chambers, and is now backtracked to saying we need people like her because there are people like Slavemaster whatever his name is. Look, Michael, I know for a fact what started you off... My whole point was that you didn't have to keep it going. Everyones going to take their own view on things, and when it comes down to it, berating and belittling others does little for your personal image or credibility in all this. Savvy? I didn't understand all of her previous post either, I had to squint at it a bit to read it. But I'm not one to talk shit about people without real cause, nor am I too lazy to read things all the way through, even to the point of having to translate it. Like I told her... Speak more plainly, noone's going to look down on you for it. Perhaps thinking things through that she says would be best also... Sometimes, I think, based on what I've seen, she responds from an emotional trigger... And that's not going to help her to present her statement properly in any sense. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael What allows idiots in the scene is idiots who post bullshit lies about the old days, who act like there are all knowing people in the scene, and that trainers are a good idea, LadyHugs subscribes to all three and more. I disagree... What allows idiots in the scene is idiots that think that alls well that ends well, with no means to instructing towards what end they're actually seeking. This whole "to each their own" is great for individual kinks, but there are right and wrong ways to paddle someone, flog someone, whip someone, punch someone, slap someone etc. ad infinitum. Even talking to someone. What allows idiots in the scene is people that aren't more proactive to disseminate the correct information at the appropriate time. It has little to nothing to do with old guard, the old days... Which I doubt you know anything of. You weren't (and neither was I) alive then... So on what are you basing that hers (Or anyone else of the "Old Guard") are lies? Smacks of jealousy that she might have had access to information you don't. I don't know, of course, but hey, I'm using what I've got. Which is about as much as you. And there isn't a person alive that can claim that they are the end all be all of knowledge in the BDSM community, and if they did, I'd be first in line to call them a liar... However, I didn't hear her make such a statement. I think you're jumping at shadows, but that's just me... Again...[&:] I learned everything I know from careful observation of myself, and the effects of my actions, with an acute understanding that there was no safety blanket... But let me enlighten you to something... There are, in this day and age, are very few people with enough common sense to understand that there is no safety net, or blanket. There are few enough people with enough common sense to know that if they don't stop dragging their feet, they're going to trip on a crack sticking up out of the sidewalk. Training is always a good idea. It's not for everyone, all the time. I had to train myself. Would I have sought a mentor if I thought one was available? Maybe... But then again, maybe not. My practice has largely been a private matter. For 20 years, I practiced in my personal relationships and without other community. If I knew there was someone near by, that I could have quizzed and worked with, my skills would likely be much more broadly developed. They aren't shabby now, but what they could have been with the proper mentor... I have little in outside information to tell me how to hold or swing a flogger, a paddle, a singletail, a bullwhip for any number of effects that I might desire. But through trial and error, and continuous practice, I learned there's more uses for a flogger than smacking someone with it... I learned to throw that (bullwhip) against a heavy bag, and then learned to split paper with it, to learn accuracy... No way would I throw a bull or singletail whip in the fashion I did to tag that paper target... Well, for accuracy yes, but not on the snap. That would rend a gash like nothing else on flesh... Not everyone understands that the "toys" we use are NOT "toys", no matter how "benign" they want them to sound. They are tools that serve a purpose. A purpose to inflict pain, and Yes, sometimes damage on another creature. Consider the knife for example... Gun play even... When someone doesn't step in, that's when people get hurt, because most people don't think. So as far as trainers are concerned... Well, I train my own slaves, and sometimes help others train theirs... Is there a problem with that? When it comes down to training Tops, well, sometimes submitting oneself as a bottom isn't a bad thing... You learn things about your bottoms you just couldn't pick up otherwise. I prefer the concept of mentors, not trainers, when it comes to teaching Tops... Different dynamic, I think. So personally, other than her blanket and absolute statement structures (and that's all it really was, was a semmantic issue) I found little wrong with what she was ultimately trying to convey... Though long winded... Much like this fuckin post is. To do your due diligence and listen to people with experience. There's nothing wrong with that. Children wouldn't grow, if they didn't listen to experience. They'd die before their time. She was trying to convey the dangers of working with sadists that you don't know... Something I wouldn't even recommend, personally, but if you do, be sure you do it safely. That's not me suckin up... That's me laying it down how it is. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael So you can do whatever you want, but don't fool yourself into thinking you can get me to do anything! I don't hold myself to any illusions with anything brah... I don't look at you like you were my lil bitch or something... I'm just lettin you know that it's getting nitpicky and ridiculous, regardless of how ridiculous what she had initially said may have sounded to you... But it's not all about Michael here... There are other people that might get something from her statements that is helpful... Even amidst the fuck-ups, she said some things that were useful... Noones perfect... Including you or I... Just as there are other people here, that are likely tired of this little bunch of bullshit that has just transpired... So I'm asking you again dude... Jus' let it go brah... Just leave it alone. Alright? Peace.

SimplyMichael -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 9:56:02 PM)
Tiger, Ladies and Gentlemen; I stand before you on this most modest of soapboxes and and will proceed to excite a mixed blend of molecules consisting of primarily nitrogen, oxygen, and carbon dioxide and an assortment of other gasses. The exitement of those gasses by me will cause them to rise but however, the vibrations emanating from my vocal cords will carry the thoughts now formed into words in your direction and will be then converted into electical impulses which will pass into your brain and be reinterpreted as words. I of course address you as ladies and gentleman because I consider you an audience for my lofty and insightful thoughts and of course expect you to sit quietly and not fidget while your betters speak. I of course then expect a reverential hush as I finish and turn the floor over to lesser mortals to discuss whatever it is they consider interesting. I myself will of course look in from time to time to ensure that the little people are not doing anything they shouldn't be and will of course show them the error of their ways. Till next time. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Michael (with the oh so secret old name of Crappy Dom which nodoby should mention since I worked so hard to keep it secret, I mean other than putting it in my tagline!)

TigerNINTails -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 10:00:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Tiger, Ladies and Gentlemen; I stand before you on this most modest of soapboxes and and will proceed to excite a mixed blend of molecules consisting of primarily nitrogen, oxygen, and carbon dioxide and an assortment of other gasses. The exitement of those gasses by me will cause them to rise but however, the vibrations emanating from my vocal cords will carry the thoughts now formed into words in your direction and will be then converted into electical impulses which will pass into your brain and be reinterpreted as words. I of course address you as ladies and gentleman because I consider you an audience for my lofty and insightful thoughts and of course expect you to sit quietly and not fidget while your betters speak. I of course then expect a reverential hush as I finish and turn the floor over to lesser mortals to discuss whatever it is they consider interesting. I myself will of course look in from time to time to ensure that the little people are not doing anything they shouldn't be and will of course show them the error of their ways. Till next time. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Michael (with the oh so secret old name of Crappy Dom which nodoby should mention since I worked so hard to keep it secret, I mean other than putting it in my tagline!) Okay, okay, so she comes across a bit on the pomous side, I get it, I really do... For fuck sakes!! ROFL!!! clears the tears out his eyes as fights to find the enter key Hahahaa! That was good.[:D]

Histigress -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 10:05:53 PM)
looks back in again.... shakes her head... still not saying a word.... heh

chiaThePet -> RE: trying to understand sadism (7/6/2007 10:36:30 PM)
As one who is also trying to understand sadism, that which relates to my past, and that which i wish to know for my future, i offer a very sincere Thank You to everyone whom contributed to this thread. i have indeed learned from the exchange offered here, whether polite, humorous, or heated in nature. (i do tend to love those passionate, high temperature discussions myself, especially among Dominants, there's something about power rising that grabs my every attention) chia* (the pet)

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