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Sinergy -> RE: What if: (7/7/2007 9:31:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

When I was a kid, I had a book on the NFL championships that had been played. On the story about the 1965 title game featuring the Green Bay Packers and Cleveland Browns, there was a pic of Browns' defensive tackle Jim Kanicki, after the game, covered from head to toe with mud. I tenatively asked my mom, on a rainy day, if I could go outside and "get that muddy". Surprisingly, she said yes. Well, after getting mud all over (including down my pants), I came to the conclusion it wasn't as fun as I had hoped.



One of the most enjoyable moments of my childhood was playing goalie for my AYSO soccer team in the rain.

Drenched.  Muddy.  Slide tackles.  Yeehaw.

Sinergy



NorthernGent -> RE: What if: (7/7/2007 10:23:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

A planet wide, garden paradise were possible.
 
Have you ever considered what it would take to make, and keep everyone happy? Do you think if the elements were all there, it could even be possible?
 
What would it take to keep you happy?
 
In answering, please try not to eliminate anything, but the impossible. It might help to consider, in a place where miracles do happen, there is very little that is impossible.
 
Sincerely,
 
k


Well, humans have a range of emotions, and one them is sadness. It could only be eliminated through mind-bending drugs.

As a generalisation, I'd throw in allowing the human spirit to thrive. Human spirit being enterprise, compassion, empathy, friendship, loyalty, love, sadness, happiness etc i.e. the whole range of human emotions and characteristics. Not wanting to turn this thread into the continuation of another one, but this is the danger with consumerism, it dampens peoples' spirit and is a significant factor in people blindly stumbling along the path of high-street conformity.

Anyway, as for utopia, I'd be surprised if anyone buys into that, but I fully believe this world could and will be a better place. Not in my lifetime. My opinion is that a disproportionate amount of emphasis is placed on the belief that humans are driven by competition. It's a factor, but one of many. Humans need the ability to express the full spectrum of emotions to thrive. Future generations will understand this. After all, the present generation does not understand the oppression it faces. Just as we (well, some of us) look back 200 years ago and understand the oppression that many didn't understand at the time, future generations will understand the oppression we face today and will have done something about it instead of sitting on their arses watching shite television.

What would it take to keep me happy? Well, I'm a simple enough lad with no aspirations of a big house, ferrari, and all the possessions that go with it, but I would like to see a lot more of rural England and Wales, too. Probably hire a barge and go sailing up and down canals, stopping off for the local brew/beer on the way - snare a woman and take her with me. She better be able to cook and wash clothes, or she'll be going overboard 5 minutes into journey. If anyone's interested, mail me and I'll send you an application form and a starter pack.

Miracles? 'No chance. Hard work and a spot of luck along the way is what makes things happen. As my father always said, you've got to grab the bull by the horns and when something doesn't go your way you pick yourself up, dust yourself down and get back on the horse. 'No miracles in this life, but that doesn't mean people have to accept the current malaise.

In a nutshell, knowledge passed down from generation to generation is, and always has been, what will make the world a better place. I'm not anticipating a garden paradise, though, but if you find it feel free to send me a map and directions :-)



velvetears -> RE: What if: (7/7/2007 12:38:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

A planet wide, garden paradise were possible.
 
Have you ever considered what it would take to make, and keep everyone happy? Do you think if the elements were all there, it could even be possible?
 
What would it take to keep you happy?
 
In answering, please try not to eliminate anything, but the impossible. It might help to consider, in a place where miracles do happen, there is very little that is impossible.
 
Sincerely,
 
k


In a word, no. i don't even think it would be wise.  Happiness is a by product, not a right.  You can't pursue it, it's not tangible, it's elusive, it cannot be defined as there are too many variables.  Life is a learning process, we  each have to find our own path, beliefs, value systems and live life to our own potential.  What many people do is look at life as a competition, they are so caught up in winning or finding that they lose the experience of just simply living and experiencing the joys and sorrows, laughter and cries, accomplishments and disappointments life has to offer.  Happiness is an illusion, that butterfly you can never seem to catch in your net.  Stop trying, just sit down in the grass and enjoy what's around you, maybe that butterfly will decide to come and take a rest on your shoulder [;)]



charmdpetKeira -> RE: What if: (7/7/2007 6:00:11 PM)

quote:

I tenatively asked my mom, on a rainy day, if I could go outside and "get that muddy". Surprisingly, she said yes. Well, after getting mud all over (including down my pants), I came to the conclusion it wasn't as fun as I had hoped.
 
When I was a kid, my mother locked my two siblings and me out of the house during mud season, and then she got pissed when we got muddy. That’s when I decided I would never do that if I ever had kids.
 
k



charmdpetKeira -> RE: What if: (7/7/2007 6:30:52 PM)

quote:


Stop trying, just sit down in the grass and enjoy what's around you, maybe that butterfly will decide to come and take a rest on your shoulder
 
 
Your saying this reminds me of how I used to stand, for long periods of time on top of the dog house of my grandfather’s dog, bird seed in hand, waiting for the chickadees to come and take the seed. Eventually, my patients did pay off and they would come. Not bad for a kid with ADHD.
 
k



charmdpetKeira -> RE: What if: (7/7/2007 6:55:21 PM)


quote:

Some people find joy in other's misery,
 
I used to think this of my mother, then after talking to her a while back, I realized her problem was that she wasn’t happy herself, which is why she turned around and made those around her just as miserable as she was.
 
quote:


 and some couldn't keep their nose far enough out of other's business to allow either party to be happy.
 
 
Yes, some do have way too much time on their hands.
 
quote:

Very good topic, k.
 
 
Thank you, Level. :)
 
k

 



charmdpetKeira -> RE: What if: (7/7/2007 7:44:51 PM)

I am thinking my idea of a garden paradise is a bit different then what others have in mind; perhaps more like what I used to think, which would involve a regression.
 
After lots of thinking, that idea doesn’t seem right to me anymore, it does not seem as though humans would be happy sitting around doing the same stuff day after day. So, I believe this “paradise” would come about by learning new and better ways of doing things that keep us occupied.
 
While I don’t have the answers on how, I have taken into consideration, history has shown us; if someone dreams/thinks it, it can happen. That concept opens all kinds of doors to things we as humans, to my knowledge, have not even come close to discovering yet.; think more Sci-fi.
 
Also, if people do need to feel all emotions, perhaps the answer is not that we are always ecstatic, but more of an eliminating of living at the extremes most of us do now; becoming more balanced. A little sadness, such as a friend moving away, can be inspirational; where as misery can and often is detrimental.
 
Sincerely,
 
k



NorthernGent -> RE: What if: (7/8/2007 3:53:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

After lots of thinking, that idea doesn’t seem right to me anymore, it does not seem as though humans would be happy sitting around doing the same stuff day after day. So, I believe this “paradise” would come about by learning new and better ways of doing things that keep us occupied.
 


I agree. We have too much spirit and energy to stagnate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

 
While I don’t have the answers on how, I have taken into consideration, history has shown us; if someone dreams/thinks it, it can happen. That concept opens all kinds of doors to things we as humans, to my knowledge, have not even come close to discovering yet.; think more Sci-fi.
 
Also, if people do need to feel all emotions, perhaps the answer is not that we are always ecstatic, but more of an eliminating of living at the extremes most of us do now; becoming more balanced. A little sadness, such as a friend moving away, can be inspirational; where as misery can and often is detrimental.
 
Sincerely,
 
k


Self-possession is the ultimate human need, and today's market society is robbing people of that self-possession. We're slaves to the market system. Hence, the misery. Many people are unhappy, and I'd estimate most don't understand the reasons. They look at themselves with their possessions and think they should be as happy as pigs in shit because that's what the prevailing culture and status quo tell us is the key to happiness. I think it's fair to say that humans need far more than being conditioned to buy and sell.

The answer is not drugs to control extreme emotions, though. This will only make people docile and more receptive to this prevailing culture. The answer is knowledge sharing and a greater/wider understanding of human need.

I like your dreams comment, people need dreams and aspirations. It's part of our make-up.



Raechard -> RE: What if: (7/8/2007 8:48:28 AM)

Happiness comes from inside this is why no utopia can ever exist because everyone has different ideas as to what will make them happy but no one wants to live in a society of one. i.e. someone’s idea of utopia is one where people put a humans needs before that of an animal but someone else thinks vivisection should be banned. Both people have to live in the same world and its only utopia if everyone is happy there.



charmdpetKeira -> RE: What if: (7/9/2007 6:35:47 PM)

NorthernGent,
 
quote:


I agree. We have too much spirit and energy to stagnate.


 
Yes, definitely.
 
quote:


Self-possession is the ultimate human need, and today's market society is robbing people of that self-possession. We're slaves to the market system. Hence, the misery. Many people are unhappy, and I'd estimate most don't understand the reasons. They look at themselves with their possessions and think they should be as happy as pigs in shit because that's what the prevailing culture and status quo tell us is the key to happiness.
 
 
I agree. I think there is way too much importance put on money, who has it and who doesn’t. It is the biggest thing that differentiates one from another; and a rather piss poor one at that.
 
quote:

I think it's fair to say that humans need far more than being conditioned to buy and sell.

 
I think the majority here demonstrate that, just by being here. There are also the writers, artists, inventors, discoverers, and musicians; especially those who do these things for the simple pleasure they get out of doing it.

quote:

The answer is not drugs to control extreme emotions, though. This will only make people docile and more receptive to this prevailing culture.
 

Been there done that, and again I agree; while it stopped a lot of the “bad” feelings, it also blocked the good.
 
quote:


The answer is knowledge sharing and a greater/wider understanding of human need.
 
 
I would add changing prospective, and learning how to become more balanced.

quote:

I like your dreams comment, people need dreams and aspirations. It's part of our make-up.
 
 
*smiles* Thank you; it’s so true too. If it weren’t for dreams, the Earth would still be flat, big heavy metal objects couldn’t fly, people would never go to outer space, and moving pictures would still be a joke. :)
 
Raechard,
 
quote:


Happiness comes from inside this is why no utopia can ever exist because everyone has different ideas as to what will make them happy but no one wants to live in a society of one. i.e. someone’s idea of utopia is one where people put a humans needs before that of an animal but someone else thinks vivisection should be banned. Both people have to live in the same world and its only utopia if everyone is happy there.

 
If happiness comes from the inside and everyone found it, why couldn’t there be a utopia? Your statement seems to say, it comes from the inside, but people look for it on the outside. Also, I would think finding inner happiness and defining moral ethics are two different topics.
 
I agree it has to start from inside; after all, if one was to believe in the tale of the original garden paradise, they had everything they could possibly need, and still weren’t happy with what they had.
 
Even then it was a matter of prospective. I don’t believe it is only found inside. And I don’t think the problem is so much a difference in what makes people happy, as it is a difference in the ways people choose to achieve that happiness.
 
I would say there is already a fairly set standard on the majority of moral issues. Most agree lying, cheating, stealing, greed, ect, are bad; they’re just not agreeing on what constitutes those things.
 
One more thing; anyone who doesn’t think that large amounts of people can pull together, agree on what needs to be done, and do it; wait and see what happens the next time there’s some kind of disaster.
 
The only thing people really need to motivate them into action is desire and the ability to see a way to make it happen.
 
Btw… interesting quote.
 
Sincerely,
 
k



Raechard -> RE: What if: (7/10/2007 11:02:02 AM)

Utopia is a wonderfull society not a wonderfull state of mind.

Would you be happy in a utopian society if the authorities of that society allowed abortion but your views were pro life and vice versa? People are always trying to make the world a better place in terms of what they desire. You would always find something that you didn’t agree with in any society.



Raechard -> RE: What if: (7/10/2007 12:11:27 PM)

If not why don't we already consider the world we live in as utopia?



Estring -> RE: What if: (7/10/2007 12:28:08 PM)

I have to admit, I've never seen a depressed pig.



Alumbrado -> RE: What if: (7/10/2007 3:00:33 PM)

There used to be a restaurant in Seattle called El Puerco Lloron... (The Crying Pig).



charmdpetKeira -> RE: What if: (7/10/2007 4:00:40 PM)

quote:


Utopia is a wonderfull society not a wonderfull state of mind.
 
 
My bad, I was having a brain cramp, and completely missed your point the first time; sorry.

quote:

Would you be happy in a utopian society if the authorities of that society allowed abortion but your views were pro life and vice versa? People are always trying to make the world a better place in terms of what they desire. You would always find something that you didn’t agree with in any society.
 
 
First lets get back on track, the original question was about living in a garden paradise, which is a really nice place; not a utopian, which indicates “perfection”. After all, we would still be human; the objective being, to become as balanced as possible.
 
I find abortion to be a moral issue that is actually murder. In this day and age, there are very few “good” reason to have an abortion; rape may be one, and possibly another is if the mother or both, mother and child, would die if the baby were carried to term. There is no ooops.
 
Moral issues intact, would include no stealing, therefore rape would be out; and I’m thinking science would have to be far more advanced then it is today, which could possibly mean heath would not be an issue either.
 
Also, I don’t believe government as we know it, would exist any longer; no more self serving, professional liars.
 
People would have to learn to regulate themselves better, drop the greed and stop butting in to other people’s lives where they don’t belong. Everyone would have to pull their own weight, and work toward the greater good; which doesn’t necessarily mean one size fits all, but that everyone serves a purpose towards the goal, and everyone’s needs are taken care of.
 
After that, unless I’m missing something, it happens, the biggest issue would be entertainment; keeping people from getting bored.
 

At this point i have come to the conclusion, until science chatches up with the idea; it will probably have to start small and hopefully spread.
 
quote:


If not why don't we already consider the world we live in as utopia?

 
Like I said, I misunderstood what you were saying the first time; my bad.



Alumbrado -> RE: What if: (7/10/2007 4:07:20 PM)

Well, the more you define your gaden paradise, the more it appears to approach imposing your values on others. 

Which goes back to competing interests... there are people who would never be happy unless they could steal, have abortion according to their moral code, etc.



charmdpetKeira -> RE: What if: (7/10/2007 4:14:27 PM)

quote:


Well, the more you define your gaden paradise, the more it appears to approach imposing your values on others. 

Which goes back to competing interests... there are people who would never be happy unless they could steal, have abortion according to their moral code, etc.
 
 
My moral code? I am willing to bet those who are okay with stealing from others, don’t care to have things stolen from them, and those who are okay with murder, do not wish to be murdered themselves. It is a matter of eliminating hypocrisy.
 
Sincerely,
 
k



Alumbrado -> RE: What if: (7/10/2007 4:54:24 PM)

That implies that everyone understnd consequences... not everyone does, some are just motivated by desires.

Now if the technology were to eliminate that flaw...



charmdpetKeira -> RE: What if: (7/10/2007 8:12:45 PM)

quote:


That implies that everyone understnd consequences... not everyone does, some are just motivated by desires.
Now if the technology were to eliminate that flaw...
 
 
I think a good number of people who do things they shouldn’t; steal, kill, ect; start, out of necessity and sometimes become conditioned to continue. Others learn from bad example. If those cases were eliminated, those who act out do to desire would hopefully be minimal. Keeping people busy/entertained should eliminate the majority of thrill seeking.
 
Yes, the rules and penalties would have to be clearly defined.
 
Sincerely,
 
k



NeedToUseYou -> RE: What if: (7/10/2007 8:23:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

A planet wide, garden paradise were possible.
 
Have you ever considered what it would take to make, and keep everyone happy? Do you think if the elements were all there, it could even be possible?

I don't think it is possible to keep everyone happy, without removing pieces of the human brain or controlling memory. I guess, one could feed  a constant loop into someones brain a happy scenario.
 
What would it take to keep you happy?

Good food, ability to travel worldwide on a whim, self sustained life for the most part, nicely equipped garage, with tools and supplies in the country. Horny good natured attractive woman, that likes to cook, clean, and do laundry. HEHE.
 
In answering, please try not to eliminate anything, but the impossible. It might help to consider, in a place where miracles do happen, there is very little that is impossible.
 
Sincerely,
 
k



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