Slavery and service... (Full Version)

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TallDarkAndWitty -> Slavery and service... (6/12/2004 7:09:48 PM)

I asked these questions on another thread, but they were kind of buried there...perhaps I can get some better responses here:

Being as how I feel no submissive or slave desires whatsoever, all of my theories are based on the communications I have had with slaves and submissives. So let me pose a few questions and perhaps those in the group can further my education into the slave mindset:

My concept of slavery is heavily based on the idea of "ownership"; can there be rewarding BDSM service without ownership? (The image of Alfred the Butler from Batman popped into my head...not a very sexy image. *smile*)

Is the desire of service separate and independent from the desire to be owned, or is service simply more evidence to one's owned status?

Can a slave be a slave without desiring to serve? Would that fall into the "pet" or “princess” category of bottom?

Any and all thoughts would be greatly appreciated...

Yours,
Taggard
http://www.taggard.net



January -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/12/2004 8:02:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

I asked these questions on another thread, but they were kind of buried thre...perhaps I can get soem better responses here:



Better responses? The very question you now ask here is a result of our previous answers on that other thread.

Stop searching for the answers that fit your theory to the exclusion of other data. And observe and learn before you lecture us about what it is that we are. Not pissing off your (sub)jects is job one, Mr. Scientist.

January



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/12/2004 8:16:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: January
Better responses? The very question you now ask here is a result of our previous answers on that other thread.


Which was exactly why I thanked both you and proud on that other thread.

quote:


Stop searching for the answers that fit your theory to the exclusion of other data. And observe and learn before you lecture us about what it is that we are. Not pissing off your (sub)jects is job one, Mr. Scientist.

January



*laughing*

Wait, are you actually pissed off because I decided to try and get more information from a different source?

No one actually responded to these questions on that other thread...and as you said, you and proud are both self declared submissives. I need some self declared slaves to answer these questions.

Two submissive does not a scientific sample make...and if trying to enlarge the sample leads to pissing off those two submissives, oh well.

But that was sarcasm...right? Please tell me that was sarcasm...

Yours,
Taggard
http://www.taggard.net



January -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/12/2004 8:48:49 PM)

Just one day on the board and you think it's okay to alienate people? You aren't getting off to a good start on the board, Taggard.

I'm afraid you don't have the intellectual standing, or humanity, or experience, to be patronizing to any of us.

You want slave responses?

The slaves on this board are generally smarter than us subs, and they can smell BS a mile off. The slaves haven't replied to your questions because they are yawning. They are also too busy serving their masters to have compassion for a lost ball in the tall weeds like you.

You also haven't yet come face to face with many of the male board Dominants, either. Believe me, their minds can draw blood. I hear them sharpening their neurons now.

You may want to revise your attitude. Quickly.



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/12/2004 9:05:06 PM)

Hmm...what exactly did I do that so pissed you off?

Not that I really care, but I must confess to some morbid curiosity. I think I was rather patient with my resposnses to your questions. I was polite, and even thanked you for your comments and answers to my question.

Yet you turn on me for...ummm...seeking others to answer some questions that my conversation with you and others raised in my own mind. Ummm...was I never supposed to start another thread? Was I supposed to be content with only your opinion on the matter? I really am not sure what your problem is...

Was it the way I phrased my question? Did you object to the word "better"? Did you feel I was somehow putting your responses down?

Whatever it was, I am sorry you felt patronized, and you can be sure it will not happen again.

Yours,
Taggard
http://www.taggard.net

Yours,
Taggard



perverseangelic -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/12/2004 9:15:55 PM)

my opinion? if you feel yourself to be a slave, and call yourself a slave, you are one. no one else's judegment matters. if that is how you identify, that's your identity.

i have a friend who has no desire to "serve" as most would describe it. her dominant parnter likes to play with her body. her form of slavery invovles having her body accessable to her parnter at all times. she doesn't do any service-related things as most would describe it. her body is simply her partners to play with. she identifies as her partners slave.

i have another friend who is in love with a totally vanilla parnter. he adore his parnter and has no desire to leave her, yet he also has a huge need for service. he serves her as he can. he takes care of her. he makes her life easier. she has no idea that he is serving her "in that way" yet it satisfies him, because he is honoring and serving his chosen woman. that works for him. he calls himself her slave, though not openly.

i'm pretty standard, myself. boring even. i have the desire to serve my owner, and draw most of my pleasure from pleasing my parnter. i choose the term owner to describe my parnter, because that's how it feels to me. we make it work such that i live my life, and he has the perogative to overrule anything i do. i call myself his slave and he calls me his slave.

what it boils down to is that, in my opinion, there are no set deffinitions of anything, and in trying to define "slave" and "submissive" and "bottom" you will find more exceptions than rules. i say you choose to call yourself whatever you see fit, and live your life as it works for you. no one has a right to think less of you because of what you choose, and no one is any less "true" because they use a different deffinition.



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/12/2004 9:21:06 PM)

Thanks. That makes lots of sense and does indeed help.

Yours,
Taggard



inyouagain -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/13/2004 4:14:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
Two submissive does not a scientific sample make...and if trying to enlarge the sample leads to pissing off those two submissives, oh well.

Add two slave opinions and you still do not have a scientific sampling.

If you truly seek a scientific sampling, of course you know your data collection will require more pools, or collection (sampling) points than just simply here at the collarme message board. Also, the data sampling process must be structured the same to avoind skewing of the collected data... meaning the same set of criterion be sampled at each sampling location (by using the same exact questions/survey at ALL sampling points).

One bad thing about "raw" statistical data is the fact it can be skewed to the scientific data collector's preferences, much in the same manner pollster's preferences are indicated by the possible choices the pollster provides to the pollee taking the poll.

Which brings us to the point that scientific samplings and studies are conducted under rather rigid protocols to avoid data corruption (skewing, misinterpretation, etc), and the data collector(s) must each strictly follow and adhere to scientific principle. Not to mention the data collection process magnitude sometimes takes years, even decades to collect/assimilate/factor-in with the cummulative data collected in the endeavor.

The US has only 260 million or so residents. In order to conduct any scientific sampling of the US population alone, you would need to sample at least 1 percent of the population. Considering you have two sub opinions gathered, and now seek a couple slave opines to include, means you are only short about 2,599, 996 samples in your data collection efforts. That's a bit early to be making data assessments, and drawing any scientific conclusions.

Since you only need a little over 2½ million more samples to reach a valid scientific conclusion, I'd say keep collecting data and when the sample size of the study group is sufficient (1%), then try to glean some trends from the collected data.

Any scientific sampling has to have reasonable objectives, and since it's a given that all 260 million US inhabitants are not all into BDSM, I'll make it easier for you. Let's say that only 1% of the 260 million are into BDSM, then you only need 1% of the 2.6 million to formulate a scientific study... that means you only need 26,000 samples, so that should cut your collection time considerably, don't you agree... despite being only 25,996 surveys/samples away from drawing any kind of conclusion(s) from the scientifically collected data.

Welcome to collarme, and good luck in your daunting data collection. You may need to standardize your scientific survey and disseminate it to many other places, because collarme only has about 33,000 members total, and a conservative estimate would be that 50% of those are sub/slave, and only 50% of those are female, so your scientific data hunting grounds are further diminished by potential samples to the order of 7-8,000 samples total available here at collarme... need to expand the data collection base to include other BDSM sites memberships... while avoiding redundancy (only one survey per customer, no matter how many sites they belong to or how many nicks they operate under... gotta keep it scientific!).

Inyouagain



ShadeDiva -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/13/2004 5:26:34 AM)

inyou ....


... that post made me VERY tired!

lol

Quiddit!

~ShadeDiva



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/13/2004 6:15:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: inyouagain

Add two slave opinions and you still do not have a scientific sampling.



Ah yes, all too true.

Lucky for me I enjoy collecting such data, sometimes with the assistance of my pig slapper. Twenty-six thousand or so such collections doesn't sound that bad to me right now.*wink*

The wonderful thing about this particular sample of the US population is that I can use information gahering techniques that would make Don Rumsfeld blush...

Yours,
Taggard



iwillserveu -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/14/2004 6:04:46 PM)

quote:

(The image of Alfred the Butler from Batman popped into my head...not a very sexy image. *smile*)


Well, that depends on what you're into.[:D]



EStrict -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/17/2004 5:07:29 PM)

quote:

Lucky for me I enjoy collecting such data, sometimes with the assistance of my pig slapper. Twenty-six thousand or so such collections doesn't sound that bad to me right now.*wink*


Of course Taggard, the other problem seems to be where you are getting your answer. This is a medium that not only allows for free speech, it allows for deceit. People can be whatever they chose to pretend to be. Which, of course, colors statistics. Add to that they fact that even within the BDSM community definitions are not *standard*. One persons slave is another's submissive. One persons dominant is another's top, etc.

I don't believe this is a question that even relates to BDSM. I know many who are not in the lifestyle that all that will say that they *serve* others, and that they are very happy to know that they have made their spouse happy, child secure, or done the most possible to make their job as efficient as it could be. They do so because it is what they need to do to be themselves.... quite simply to do their best to fulfill the needs of others, even if they get no recognition in return (after all, how often are you taking for granted if you are that efficient?

I do define myself as a slave, but I am what I am and who I am at all times. It has nothing to do with being owned or not. I do believe the same of many of those who consider themselves dominant, submissive, top, bottom or whatever they term feels right to them.

You are you, and you define yourself. Your actions reflect on them, and if they do so in a positive manner as far as you and those who are important to you are concerned, the thoughts of others are irrelevant. Trust me, many I rarely agree with believe that last part totally, they just don't get the part that were they are not expected to live up to the expectations of others, neither are others required to live within what they hold as true or real.



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/17/2004 5:22:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EStrict
I don't believe this is a question that even relates to BDSM. I know many who are not in the lifestyle that all that will say that they *serve* others, and that they are very happy to know that they have made their spouse happy, child secure, or done the most possible to make their job as efficient as it could be.


I guess I just have a different view of what BDSM is. For me, the lifestyle is just one tiny aspect of BDSM. Those who serve their husbands, those whose serve their "god," these people are as "kinky" as I am, though they don't even know it. In my mind, BDSM is a natural evolution of human beings, and has nothing to do with "the lifestyle."

Yours,
Taggard



EStrict -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/17/2004 6:19:18 PM)

That's exactly my point Taggard. As your veiw of what BDSM is not the same as those responding, the answers you are receiving are totally moot in being able to compile logical and realistic statistics.

Of course, that's just my opinion, and it's your time to waste as you wish :)



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/17/2004 6:25:39 PM)

But that's the point entirely. Why would I bother collecting opinions if everyone's was the same? The differences are what makes it interesting.

Yours,
Taggard



Voltare -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/18/2004 8:52:04 AM)

I firmly believe that every Domme has the right to demand to be called 'slave' if She wishes. Naturally Her submissive would be more then grateful for the title She confers upon him, as 'master' and it is hardly my place to correct the two in their pet names for each other.

In the end, it doesn't matter what title or label you use - it is the dynamics that underly those titles that carry real value. If you personally don't agree with another couples estimation of BDSM - then don't look at em.

Stephan



Sinergy -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/18/2004 10:35:21 PM)

"Was it Kierkegaard, or Dick Van Patten, who said "if you label me, you negate me"
Michael Myers, Waynes World.

Whether a person feels they are a slave (to me) really lies in the relationship they have with their Dominant / Master and in what they are looking for, and if you asked 5 slaves or submissives to describe themselves, I suspect you would find the answers overlap.

I think labels are dangerous, because a label generally has a definition in the person who hears it's mind which defines what the subject is, as opposed to what the subject actually is.

Perhaps a more appropriate question would be "how do you define being a slave or submissive or ..." so you could actually define what a slave is, rather than asking people whether they consider themselves a "slave" without bothering to find out of they all agree on the definition of the word "slave."

Regards,

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: Slavery and service... (6/18/2004 10:37:27 PM)

quote:

I firmly believe that every Domme has the right to demand to be called 'slave' if She wishes.


I have not met a lot of Dommes who asked me to call them slave, but I am more than willing to comply on the off chance that they do.

Calling a Domme's significant other anything but what she wants him/her to be called is, to me, extremely disrespectful.

Sinergy



TheeKnave -> RE: Slavery and service... (7/9/2004 9:41:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

But that's the point entirely. Why would I bother collecting opinions if everyone's was the same? The differences are what makes it interesting.

Yours,
Taggard

[
I've been following your threads Taggard and felt the need to remind you...
........... Albert has your new cape ready in the Batcave.


Some things I am realizing and starting to confirm from my training as a child therapist.

1) most adults are just big children who are upset because they didn't have enough toys in childhood
2) 95% of the D/s community is severly dysfunctional and can't live without those toys
3) this community is no exception, so the members are trying to make other members into toys
4) most of these debates remind me of a Monty Python episode.. where a man pays to have an argument, then argues for five minutes whether he paid for it, uses up all his time and has to pay for another five minutes whether contradiction is a true argument (which unlike here, is at least a comical version of people being used as toys)
5) I think you are clever, articulate, sane, and at the very least.... misunderstood


PS. and ... for all those nice things I said.. would you kindly please send me some toys...

Sincerely, TheeKnave



topcat -> RE: Slavery and service... (7/10/2004 12:04:52 AM)

quote:

My concept of slavery is heavily based on the idea of "ownership"; can there be rewarding BDSM service without ownership? (The image of Alfred the Butler from Batman popped into my head...not a very sexy image. *smile*)


M. Taggard-

It's a bit off topic, but bear with me...

Afew years back, when I was first making the scene in NY, I fell in with a male submissive, Jonny K. While we were both hetero, we found ourselves going stag to some of the same events or venues and formed a sort of partnership to maximise our visiblity and reps in the scene.

We'd go to events with Jonny serving as my valet, carrying my bag, lighting my cigarettes, brushing off my jacket, and we'd pimp each other shamelessly ('My gawd m'am- those heels must be killing you! would you like my fellow to rub your feet?..." " the master is visiting alone tonight- perhaps you'd like to work with him?") which went over really well.

The germane fact here is that we both found after a bit a certain satisfaction in the relationship, beyond just the results it garnered. It certianly had no whiff of ownership, but something of service on his part, stewardship on mine that was satisfiing all on it's own.

Stay warm,
Lawrence



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