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Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 12:09:29 PM

DSwriter

Posts: 39
Joined: 2/14/2007
From: New Hope, PA
Status: offline

I've been communicating with a Domme here for the past 2 weeks. We've never spoken on the phone. But she is dangling the possibility of me becoming her "boy" in front of me like a carrot on a stick.

She is a good writer, with a good imagination, so she's captured my attention.

She is also rather demanding for someone i have not even chatted with on the phone. For instance, she has asked me to go out and buy certain items of clothing that she wants to see me wear - and then take pictures and send them to her.

She also has insisted that i remain in chastity for the past 7 days. She said it would only be for 3 days ... but she keeps upping the ante every day ... finding some excuse for me to keep it on.

Too, she never speaks about anything on a personal level. She asks me 1000's of questions about my sexuality, my past experience, etc... but says very little about herself.

Am i being jerked around by some sicko guy pretending to be a Domme, that is just getting his laughs out of jerking my chain?

I'm beginning to wonder if it's a guy, simply because women generally do not seem to communicate this way. In fact, that's one of the things i love about women in general. They tend to communicate on a friends basis first - wanting to know if there is any basis for relationship on a personal level - before getting into all the sexual stuff. Anyone that just issues edicts like this woman does - speaking entirely on a sexual level - makes me wonder if this is really some charlatan wondering how far he can take me.

Anyone have any thoughts on this or suggestions for trying to figure out if a person is a fraud?

I know there are plenty of them here ... and it iritates me to no end if this is just a case of someone playing head games. Then again, as i said, she writes well, so i am afraid to accuse her of anything, lest she might actually be the real deal.

Post #: 1

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 12:13:49 PM

littlesarbonn

Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline

You're stuck in one of those situations I'm quite familiar with. If you call her on it, you could be cast out. At the same time, you have to ask yourself, how long are you going to let the possibility of real life dangle in front of you before you begin to suspect it's not as real as you believed?

She demands you send pictures of yourself, but have you not seen a single picture of her at all? If this was the case, I wouldn't have gone anywhere near the point you're at right now, but that's just me. Eventually, you're going to have to decide if this is working or not working for you and to see if she's willing to at least give you an actual indication all is on the up and up.

_____________________________

<---- FYI, this picture looks JUST like me

http://www.littlesarbonn.com/Stickman/Stickman.htm
The Adventures of Stickman and the Unemployed Lego Spaceman

(in reply to DSwriter)

Post #: 2

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 12:16:19 PM

Najakcharmer

Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline

I'd suggest honestly discussing your concerns, and stating that while you are sincere and you wish to serve, and you wish to serve her in particular as you admire her intelligence and style, you feel the need to be reassured that she is who she says she is before your submission can go much further.

I could definitely see having fun playing those games, and I'm not a guy in drag. But I could also see understanding and respecting that my playtoy has no way of knowing that, so at some point it needs to be time to give him that reassurance if I want more of his submission.

Be honest and straightforward while remaining respectful, and see how that goes. If she is leery of talking to a man at all on the phone, and I could possibly see being that leery, ask a domme friend you trust to communicate with her and verify that she is who she says she is.

If she is asking you for money, all bets are off and I'd definitely run for the hills.

(in reply to DSwriter)

Post #: 3

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 12:17:33 PM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

Its really very simple methinks.

If she's real, and really interested in you, she wont mind talking on the phone. Beware though that a tolerably female voice can be achieved even with a male voicebox - though it takes a lot of work. This doesnt mean falsetto. You should also look for female preferred vocabulary, and the one subtle difference that most never notice between male and female speech; males tend to go deeper at the end of phrases, whilst females tend to go up in pitch at the end of a phrase.

If she's real and she wont talk to you on the phone, she's not really interested.

If she's not real then she wont talk to you on the phone.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to DSwriter)

Post #: 4

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 12:34:45 PM

BBBTBW

Posts: 836
Joined: 5/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Its really very simple methinks.

If she's real, and really interested in you, she wont mind talking on the phone. Beware though that a tolerably female voice can be achieved even with a male voicebox - though it takes a lot of work. This doesnt mean falsetto. You should also look for female preferred vocabulary, and the one subtle difference that most never notice between male and female speech; males tend to go deeper at the end of phrases, whilst females tend to go up in pitch at the end of a phrase.

If she's real and she wont talk to you on the phone, she's not really interested.

If she's not real then she wont talk to you on the phone.

E

I am not sure what the difference is in the highlighted phrases...but ok

However, I disagree with them. One can be real and not seek to speak on the phone after only a couple of weeks (I am not saying she is real or not) I personally don't give my phone number out to everyone I talk to for that length of time. I have spoken to those that really impress me for a month or so, then you exchange phone numbers and they are never used, or they are used to exhaustion. I like to develop a decent rapport with someone before speaking with them on the phone.

As mentioned in the OP, women tend to have a style about their conversation that identifies them as women.

I say to the Thread Starter, use your gut. If this person seems sincere to you, then go with it, if not then break it off now before you invest more of yourself in it.

_____________________________

"You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means" -- Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 5

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 12:39:25 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

To the OP..It could be She is married and can`t talk on the phone. The only answer here has been said by others. It is all about how much you want to get involved. The big risk is that you let yourself get emotionally attached and then find out She is a fake.

(in reply to BBBTBW)

Post #: 6

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 12:44:52 PM

MissyRane

Posts: 1032
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline

Everybody can talk on the phone, doesn't matter whether they're married. She doesn't have to be yelling that you'll stay in chastity for 100 days more if the phonecall is just to proove that she's real

Heck I aint comfortable with calling people but I can and do it if people ask me to even though I feel nervous like shit doing it.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 7

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 12:52:17 PM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

In my ever so humble opinion
If you are here questioning it, tha means what you have is no longer making you happy. Sticking with it wil continue not to make you happy.
Your choices are to call her out, and tel her that without a more solid communications basis (more give and take and posibly a phone call) that you arent going to be able to continue, or to ignore the fact that you are not happy and see how long she baits you.
If you get cast aside becasue you questioned her, then chalk it up as a loss, but someone real and serious shouldnt cast you aside becasue you want to get more involved, especially if she is dangling your carrot so to speak.

A feminie vice on the phone is no indication of reality. *I* sound like a man on the phone. I know I do, and I warn people before I call them that I had a deep voice for a female. I have no qualms against calling when I want to, but if its simply to prove who I am early on I wont. It sounds ike youve moved past the intial points and shouldbe going a littel farther.

ASk her a few questions about hersely. If she refuses to answer, then let her know you feel things are onesided and you need to find a bit more communication equality to go on. If thatdoesnt fly with her, then you need out. Even if she isnt hiding something and just isnt much of a personal communicator, that can cause its own issues later on. IF you are hoping for a real relationship, and more involvement, you have to put it out there what you need on your end.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to MissyRane)

Post #: 8

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 12:55:28 PM

SDFemDom4cuck

Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DSwriter

I've been communicating with a Domme here for the past 2 weeks. We've never spoken on the phone. But she is dangling the possibility of me becoming her "boy" in front of me like a carrot on a stick.

She is a good writer, with a good imagination, so she's captured my attention.

She is also rather demanding for someone i have not even chatted with on the phone. For instance, she has asked me to go out and buy certain items of clothing that she wants to see me wear - and then take pictures and send them to her.

She also has insisted that i remain in chastity for the past 7 days. She said it would only be for 3 days ... but she keeps upping the ante every day ... finding some excuse for me to keep it on.

Too, she never speaks about anything on a personal level. She asks me 1000's of questions about my sexuality, my past experience, etc... but says very little about herself.

Am i being jerked around by some sicko guy pretending to be a Domme, that is just getting his laughs out of jerking my chain?

I'm beginning to wonder if it's a guy, simply because women generally do not seem to communicate this way. In fact, that's one of the things i love about women in general. They tend to communicate on a friends basis first - wanting to know if there is any basis for relationship on a personal level - before getting into all the sexual stuff. Anyone that just issues edicts like this woman does - speaking entirely on a sexual level - makes me wonder if this is really some charlatan wondering how far he can take me.

Anyone have any thoughts on this or suggestions for trying to figure out if a person is a fraud?

I know there are plenty of them here ... and it iritates me to no end if this is just a case of someone playing head games. Then again, as i said, she writes well, so i am afraid to accuse her of anything, lest she might actually be the real deal.

Have you actually asked her any personal questions? If so, does she avoid them, answer them in vague terms or does she simply answer them briefly and then turn the subject back to her intended purpose?

Personally, if I'm interested in someone I like to speak with them via phone rather quickly. It gives an idea of vocal inflections and personality that can't quite be captured via written communication. For example...I can write the word bitch. It can have a variety of meanings and intentions. However the way I vocalized it will make it quite clear as to which meaning and intent I've used it in. (I also have this odd little quirk when it comes to voices, but that's just Me.)

That being said, hearing a feminine voice is still no real proof that they are actually female. There are unfortunately devices available that can give male voices a female quality and sound. Photo's sent via a computer are also no real proof of gender. The only true proof is a face to face meeting. Personally, I have a rather deep voice for a woman. A whiskey voice someone once called it. Some find it soothing or sexy. Others aren't all that infatuated with it. Regardless, it's quite obvious I'm female when a meeting occurs no matter what my voice actually sounds like.

The key here is communication. Have you raised your concerns to her for discussion? How has she reacted to your doing so? Personally, I find that the reaction therein is what will give you an ideal of how she will handle further communication and resolution in future. Only you can decide if her way of handling such situations is compatible with yours.

As for whether it's a male playing Domme (or even an insincere Female simply seeing how far you'll go for that matter) that isn't something I can even attempt to answer. Via online pretty much anyone can say and give the appearance of being anything they wish to quite convincingly. The proof of those words is in the actions they put forth in person on a one to one basis.

The best you can do is to simply ask to speak with her regarding your concerns via the phone and go from there. There is a difference between voicing a ligitimate concern and accusing someone falsely. I wouldn't suggest going with "I think you're a man and I wan't you to prove to me that you aren't". Personally, I find that rather insulting and distasteful. Asking politely to speak with her regarding your concerns is quite different. Best of luck to you.

< Message edited by SDFemDom4cuck -- 7/8/2007 1:00:48 PM >

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to DSwriter)

Post #: 9

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 1:05:23 PM

ocilla

Posts: 1764
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline

I don't know. Early, very early in exploring internet dating and BDSM I might have started right out on a sexual plain as opposed to the let's be friends and get to know each other level. But only when I was really really green and new to BDSM and internet dating etc. I quickly realized this was not the way to go and shifted the focus of those early interactions to be less sexual/BDSM and one fizzled the other is still a good friend. I agree with others - there are no real rules - just follow your gut. Letting her know that your gut feelings are starting to send warning signals is very valid. If she gets even more demanding in such a situation I would say you had best move on.

< Message edited by ocilla -- 7/8/2007 1:42:44 PM >

_____________________________

Ocilla

Nature is not a place to visit. It is home.
~ Gary Snyder

It takes a kinky village...

(in reply to MissyRane)

Post #: 10

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 1:05:32 PM

AAkasha

Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

At some point you have to ask yourself if you are putting yourself at emotional risk and lowering your standards of relationship building for the sake of some erotic thrills. If you weren't getting off on the fact that she is ordering you around, would you stick around this long?

The second question is: If you are worried that she will dump you for asking a legitimate question/making a reasonable request, is this the kind of woman you want to continue with anyway? (again, the fact that you hesitate leads me to believe that you are enjoying it on a sexual/erotic level and willing to compromise so far, and will miss the erotic part if she goes away.) If you are having fun with it and don't want to give it up, stop worrying about what her gender may be and keep on playing.

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to DSwriter)

Post #: 11

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 1:19:23 PM

MystressDream

Posts: 345
Joined: 7/11/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

This thread struck a cord with me. I have been on this site for years, but have never posted. In my profile I have written a journal entry telling any who read it what I think of the online games. But then, I am real time only. I refuse to "Domme" anyone online. I also refuse to spend weeks, months and even sometimes a year, IMing or emailing with someone I have never met. You can think there is a strong chemistry and connection, but when you meet in person, there is nothing there. Due to this, I require a meeting face to face very quickly. I am tired of wasting my time and making the emotional investment necessary to carry on lengthy chats and emails with someone I may never meet. What I have found is that if I require they meet me many tend to disappear. Deleted profiles, cell phones shut off, etc. For some, the online pursuit is all they are in this for. I had one man on collarme beg me for a year to be my slave. He insisted he would fly here and would be available regularly, even though he would not relocate. I put him off all that time. Then, finally, I called him on it. As soon as he agreed to fly in the next weekend, "poof"... gone. Now I wish I had made the meeting requirement a year ago. LOL

One indication I have seen over the years is if someone changes their screen name. Those who only look for the online connection run and hide when pushed to do more than chat.

If you are happy with online Domination, and long distance relationships, then I guess it doesn't really matter what the gender of the person sending you the instructions via email is. If you want real time, it is very important to meet them.

Most on collarme are wannabe's and/or fakes. It takes a great deal of time to find and connect with those who are real.

Mistress Sharon

P.S. You can call anyone and just block your number so they can't see it. It works well for the first couple phone calls in case you decide they are a nut case. <grin>

Good luck out there.

(in reply to DSwriter)

Post #: 12

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 2:22:29 PM

DSwriter

Posts: 39
Joined: 2/14/2007
From: New Hope, PA
Status: offline

Thank you all for your words of wisdom. Lots of good food for thought here.

I have asked about speaking on the phone. She said that will not happen for a long time. Till I've proven myself worthy.

Someone mentioned "word choices." I work as a writer for a living, and am very conscious of the words people use. And yes, i do believe men and women express themselves differently, even in the syntax they use. This woman is 53 years old according to her profile, paints herself to be a woman of class and distinction, and and uses phrases like "jerk off" rather than "masturbate." Maybe i'm splitting hairs over semantics, but several times her word choices seem to be more masculine than feminine.

Next she wants me to prove myself by doing something humiliating for her, which she says she delights in. She gave an example of going to Victoria's Secrets, to buy women's underwear, tell the sales woman that they were for me - and then get her name/phone number so the Mistress could call and confirm to see if I really did it. She said she tried this with some other potential sub here on CM, and he backed out - proving that he was not worthy of her time. She said she is coming up with something similar for me to do as a test.

None of which i would mind doing (or even find especially humiliating actually, they're just underwear for God's sake), if I knew she was real. *sigh*

Anyway, I am going to take the advice of several posters here and confront her honestly with my concerns. I half expect just voicing any doubt to turn her off and never hear from her again. But at least I'll get rid of these nagging doubts.

The internet is a wonderful tool. I met my last Domme of 2 years here on CM. But I've run into frauds in the past (particularly men using photographs of their wife), and I really hate been taken this way.

Once again, sincerest thanks for the feedback. You ladies, truly are women of class and distinction.

(in reply to MystressDream)

Post #: 13

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 3:10:02 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

It sounds like you have the matter resolved for yourself, which I'm glad to hear.

So far, there's only been one person that I've known only through CM (hadn't met them in real life yet) that I agreed to do the phone call thing. In that case, *67 is your friend. Anyway, I called, he didn't pick up, nor did he send Me any additional email. (He's rarely been on the boards since then, either.)

I do think it tends to scare certain ones off when they find out that you really are legitimate and have intentions of meeting r/t.

(in reply to DSwriter)

Post #: 14

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 3:48:53 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DSwriter

Next she wants me to prove myself by doing something humiliating for her, which she says she delights in. She gave an example of going to Victoria's Secrets, to buy women's underwear, tell the sales woman that they were for me - and then get her name/phone number so the Mistress could call and confirm to see if I really did it. She said she tried this with some other potential sub here on CM, and he backed out - proving that he was not worthy of her time. She said she is coming up with something similar for me to do as a test.

If She is asking you to get the name and phone# of a salesgirl, do you not think this is wrong ? Getting a strangers personal details is way out of line. Say the Mistress was a guy, as you suspect, and started calling the poor girl. where would that leave you when she calls the cops.

(in reply to DSwriter)

Post #: 15

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 4:08:06 PM

DrkJourney

Posts: 1917
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MystressDream

This thread struck a cord with me. I have been on this site for years, but have never posted. In my profile I have written a journal entry telling any who read it what I think of the online games. But then, I am real time only. I refuse to "Domme" anyone online. I also refuse to spend weeks, months and even sometimes a year, IMing or emailing with someone I have never met. You can think there is a strong chemistry and connection, but when you meet in person, there is nothing there. Due to this, I require a meeting face to face very quickly. I am tired of wasting my time and making the emotional investment necessary to carry on lengthy chats and emails with someone I may never meet. What I have found is that if I require they meet me many tend to disappear. Deleted profiles, cell phones shut off, etc. For some, the online pursuit is all they are in this for. I had one man on collarme beg me for a year to be my slave. He insisted he would fly here and would be available regularly, even though he would not relocate. I put him off all that time. Then, finally, I called him on it. As soon as he agreed to fly in the next weekend, "poof"... gone. Now I wish I had made the meeting requirement a year ago. LOL

One indication I have seen over the years is if someone changes their screen name. Those who only look for the online connection run and hide when pushed to do more than chat.

If you are happy with online Domination, and long distance relationships, then I guess it doesn't really matter what the gender of the person sending you the instructions via email is. If you want real time, it is very important to meet them.

Most on collarme are wannabe's and/or fakes. It takes a great deal of time to find and connect with those who are real.

Mistress Sharon

P.S. You can call anyone and just block your number so they can't see it. It works well for the first couple phone calls in case you decide they are a nut case. <grin>

Good luck out there.

I've had to learn this the hard way as well....

_____________________________

...Look into my eyes and I'll own you....

(in reply to MystressDream)

Post #: 16

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 4:09:11 PM

VeryMercurial

Posts: 620
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline

My initial thoughts were, how do we know the OP is not a fraud?
I am surprised no one stated what to me was obvious.
Sounds like he is getting just what he is looking for.
Has anyone looked at his profile? He found another writer to correspond with.
Until they meet, who knows anything?

< Message edited by VeryMercurial -- 7/8/2007 4:13:20 PM >

(in reply to DrkJourney)

Post #: 17

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 4:26:23 PM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear DSwriter, Ladies and Gentlemen;

In the computer age, anybody can be anything.

The only remedy to your situation is to ask how much is it worth to invest in a 'maybe' instead of going out and finding real individuals within the Scene, Lifestyle, BDSM and or community at large.

I would also proffer, that any service like Collarme.com, Alt and other groups designed for individuals are just 'networking tools.' Fun and entertainment can be had, like cyber scenes and friendly exchanges as well. But, much like the telephone--the Internet is a tool. Unlike the telephone, unless you have those new gizmos, a web cam and microphone, voice and person cannot be 'really' established. Not the magic pill in anybody's quest.

Even experts can be fooled by fraud. I would advise following your gut instincts and look for a BDSM support and or education group; even a munch--at least you can press flesh to flesh in a hug or handshake --or both.

Being in my 50's -- people used several different words to describe under garments. But, for me --If I maintain a vocabulary that is of a lady like nature; I would not be using rough terms as you exampled and yet, I can understand using them as some men go 'huh' if you use more polite terms instead of rougher language. So many men do not know what a phallus is, I usually have to spell it out per se.

I wonder outloud, if per chance this individual may be a transgender or something in that vein -- as much as so many do try to be woman; there are snips where the man escapes. But, most trans individuals do admit their gender situation after a bit. Some don't tell the truth and breaks many a heart.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

< Message edited by LadyHugs -- 7/8/2007 4:36:24 PM >

(in reply to DSwriter)

Post #: 18

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 7:42:22 PM

DSwriter

Posts: 39
Joined: 2/14/2007
From: New Hope, PA
Status: offline

VeryMercurial, you're right. I confess, i'm a complete and utter fraud. My profile is total rubbish, i don't really like archeology. I don't even know what it is (the study of the curve in women's feet?). I'm not really communicating with someone that i have doubts about. I'm not really submissive. I'm not even a man.

My real name is Ethel Bongwater, i live in a dumpster in Romania, have a penchant for photographs of sheep wearing garter belts, and have trouble pronouncing the letter "Q." I'm not even writing this, I'm dictating and my kitten Snuffy is typing it for me. Your fraud dectector is working fine.

Lady Hugs, sincere thanks for the insight. I think you may be right. This person could very well be some sort of frustrated transgendered person as it seemed a number of their concerns had to do with women's clothes.

I sent an up front and honest note to the person, explaining my concerns in the politest possible way. Haven't heard back, and doubt i will.

Now that i've been thinking about all of this, i'm wondering how in the world i ever got seduced by this person in the first place. Anyone i've ever connected with through the net always behaved in a much more reasonable fashion. We usually exchanged emails till they felt comfortable moving to the phone. And our communication was not all BDSM related. Usually it's focused on "normal" stuff.

With this person everything has had a very fantasy-like quality to it. Which was intoxicating at first, but no longer seems real. I'm going to chalk it up to the seduction of the dark side.

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 19

RE: Fraud detection - 7/8/2007 10:24:44 PM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: DSwriter

Next she wants me to prove myself by doing something humiliating for her, which she says she delights in. She gave an example of going to Victoria's Secrets, to buy women's underwear, tell the sales woman that they were for me - and then get her name/phone number so the Mistress could call and confirm to see if I really did it. She said she tried this with some other potential sub here on CM, and he backed out - proving that he was not worthy of her time. She said she is coming up with something similar for me to do as a test.

If She is asking you to get the name and phone# of a salesgirl, do you not think this is wrong ? Getting a strangers personal details is way out of line. Say the Mistress was a guy, as you suspect, and started calling the poor girl. where would that leave you when she calls the cops.

I'm not thinking cops, but I am thinking that it's highly improper for this "domina" to non-consensually expose this unsuspecting sales clerk to her little kink game if she really was serious about a phone call. Something isn't right....

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 20

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