RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (Full Version)

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bandit25 -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 4:34:26 PM)

You may be right Padriag. HOWEVER, many doms liken punishment of their submissives to having to punish an unruly child.  I object more to that than to the punishment itself.  I also don't know about your assumption.  Depending upon the behavior, I may or may not be able to correct it at will without external reinforcement.  However, I don't think that my dominant is going to try and change my being late for work (I'm not), or not paying taxes or even letting myself get sunburnt.  I would think (and I could be wrong here) that the type of behavior he wants me to change IS something I can change without external reinforcement. 



Padriag -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 5:02:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Master is not one who is into doing much punishing. 

Neither am I actually, except when necessary.

quote:

He would rather just discuss things with me and teach me to do better. 

That's wonderful, teaching is part of correcting.  Its not enough to tell someone (whether an adult or a child) what they did wrong, you must also teach them what they should have done, what is expected.  However, talking and teaching alone aren't always enough, sometimes additional reinforcement is required.

quote:

However, as I've mentioned several times, there has been one major punishment during our 14 months together.

Hmmm... one major punishment... so how many minor ones were there?

quote:

I felt a HUGE need to discuss it and Master permitted me to do so before any punishment was handed down. 

That was kind of him, but even by your own admission, it was something you were permitted to do, not something you had a right to do.  My advice was to submissives so that they would be most likely to avoid misunderstandings.  If an individual master or mistress chooses to permit other behavior, that is always their perrogative. 

quote:

There was no attempt on my part to negotiate what it would be or talk Him "out of it" and He was able to recognize my motives for what they were.  There was no attempt at manipulation on my part I assure you.

As you wrote this, did you stop to consider that the very fact you felt the need to defend your action, to provide assurances you weren't seeking to escape the punishment, is proof of my point.  I'm glad things worked out well for you and in an established relationship things can become more relaxed as you build more of a personal bond.  However, my advice was general, to any submissive that might read it (without making any assumptions about their relationships or circumstance)... thus in such advice I could ill afford to assume such a good understanding as you seem to have with your master, as that is not always the case.

quote:

I'm taking it that you're kind of assuming that if a sub/slave isn't willing to stay completely silent and happily accept whatever punishment with no prior discussion, that they aren't all that submissive.  If I'm wrong, I stand corrected. 

Then you stand corrected.  Individual cases will always require individual solutions.  Part of the error of the above assumptions is that you took it to an extreme... "that they aren't all that submissive".  Not true, that might be true in some cases, in others it could be simple ignorance of what behavior I expect, or it could be an expression of a deeper trouble that needs to be addressed, it could be the result of a simple lack of trust on her part... it could be a great many things.

quote:

 But, in any case, I would say that isn't true in every relationship.

Fortunately, we agree.

If you must assume something about me, assume this... I expect obedience without evasion.  In my other expectations I am fair.  In discipling a slave, I can be trusted not to require anything of the slave they cannot endure... no real harm will be done,

quote:

quote:

If at that point they presented facts that convinced me the punishment was genuinely unfair or undeserved... it would be I who was humbled and I would seek to set things right

Master allows me to present these facts beforehand.  IF something I said were to ever change His mind, then He wouldn't have to be humbled and set things right AFTER an undeserved punishment.  He would have avoided it in the first place.  That would make Him feel much better than trying to fix things afterwards.  But, as I said, it has not BEEN my motivation to persuade Him NOT to punish............luci

That's fine if that's what he's comfortable with... its not how I generally do things.  Based solely on what you've said, his way seems to work with you, so long as that is true then I would imagine he's content with his methods regardless of what anyone else thinks of them... exactly as it should be.  So it should not be much of a surprise for you that since my method work quite well for me, I too am likewise content and not inclined to change.  As for being humbled... you almost sound as if you feel it is something to be feared.  I have no problem with circumstance humbling me... its a fact of life.  Sometimes someone does something profound which humbles me, sometimes its my own mistakes or failures... sometimes its just life itself.  There's no shame in that, don't confuse being humbled with shame, they are not the same thing.  A little humility now and again keeps me grounded in reality and my head out of the clouds... I consider that a very good thing.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 5:06:49 PM)

I am not fond of punishment.  I do so rarely.  Discipline is something else again and many do not see a distinction between the two.

If I had started an argument with my submissive and I was wrong in starting the argument, I would expect her to protest it and I would listen to her.  If I was to discipline her, it would not be for arguing with me...it would be for disrespect or incivility shown during the argument.  However, as noted, I am rare to punish.  Punishing wrongly is something I really work to avoid but I can admit to having it happen once during my first D/s relationship and again in my third one. 

However, I do reserve the right to discipline and to punish.  I consider it part of the D/s dynamic, falling under guidance and correction.  I also agree with Padriag that while many say they can self-correct, they do not.  There are just as many submissives out there who claim to be able to correct themselves or who equate punishment with something reserved for a child and not a "normal" adult to adult relationship.  But what we do is not normal and for some, the dynamic of punishment/discipline to guide and correct and reinforce correct behavior works.  But it works best when used properly and it is up to each couple to determine what that is...and then live by that determination honestly.



Padriag -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 5:13:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

You may be right Padriag.

It does happen now and again. [;)]

quote:

 HOWEVER, many doms liken punishment of their submissives to having to punish an unruly child.  I object more to that than to the punishment itself.

Whereas I would object to a submissive behaving like an unruly child... and to be blunt, would not have such as a slave..

quote:

I also don't know about your assumption.  Depending upon the behavior, I may or may not be able to correct it at will without external reinforcement.

True, there are some things people can correct on their own.  We are all capable of this.  However, there are also those things we either have great difficulty with, or cannot change on our own.  Consider again the example of the alarm clock... ever notice that if you change the time you have to get up it takes you awhile to adjust.  At first you're very dependant on the punishment of the alarm clock to wake you up at the correct time.  But over time, waking up at a certain time becomes easier, even becoming a habit that you do on your own (waking up moments before the alarm goes off).  This is a good, if simple, example of punishment being used effectively in behavior modification.

quote:

However, I don't think that my dominant is going to try and change my being late for work (I'm not), or not paying taxes or even letting myself get sunburnt.  I would think (and I could be wrong here) that the type of behavior he wants me to change IS something I can change without external reinforcement. 

You don't think he would?  If you're unsure perhaps you'd better ask about that! [;)]

I can't speak for your dominant, but I can say what I would do or expect.  I would change any behavior in a slave that I found to be displeasing and especially any behavior that was detrimental to them.  So absolutely if a slave didn't use enough sunblock I'd correct that... because why would I want a sunburned slave?  Or one in trouble with the IRS, or with a pile of speeding tickets, or one that was always late?



MadRabbit -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 5:30:08 PM)

I agree with Padriag's posts...as I normall do.

I think people tend to look at punishment in the wrong way.

I view it in Skinner's terms of "negative reinforcement to correct a behavior."

We get punished all the time on a daily basis. You are in a hurry and stub your toe, the resulting pain is the punishment that reinforces being more careful and going slower. You get lazy and sloppy with a knife and cut your yourself, the injury being the punishment that reinforces respecting the knife and using it with care. You grab a hot pot off the stove and the burn is the punishment that reinforces not grabbing hot pots off the stove. (Edited to Add : Whoops...missed one of his posts and this was a rehash of what he said lol)

Recently, I was working on getting a girl I have been getting to know to refer to me as "sir". I punished her on more than one occasion from directly showing my disapointment and disapproval to cutting a phone conversation short to remind her to not let the new term slip. The end result is she now refers to me as "sir" almost naturally in the appropriate contexts without really any effort on my part.

However, if you were to ask her if I had ever punished her, she would probably say "No", because my methods were very subtle. The point wasnt big elaborate horrible creative punishments and making a big deal over them, but getting the behavior I wanted.

I think all dominants should read up on B.F. Skinner's work regarding operant conditioning and behavioral science.



Grlwithboy -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 5:30:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

Yup.  I find the concept of punishment to be demeaning.  After all, a submissive isn't a child (although some may like that dynamic and it works for them).  I don't need to be punished like a child.  Talk to me like an adult and, if I don't correct the behavior (or whatever) then, as kaprecia said, I may not be all that serious in my submission.  OR, it may be that the dynamic of our relationship needs to be redefined.

That's becoming a popular belief within the lifestyle... its not one I share.  The belief is predicated on the idea that an adult can, or at least should be able to, modify their behavior at will without any external reinforcement.  The problem with that is that it often simply isn't the case.  If we could correct our behavior any time we chose, there would be no need for aids in quiting smoking, dieting, controling sleep habits, etc.  The reality is that reality itself punishes all of us all the time.  If you don't show up at work on time you may have your pay docked, or be given a lecture by your boss, or even fired... those are all forms of punishment.  Your alarm clock punishes you every morning by annoying you with that shrill buzzing until you get up and turn it off... and yet we go out and buy them because surprise surprise... most of us need that "punishment" in the morning to wake us up on time precisely because we are not all capable of waking up whenever we choose on our own.  Try speeding and see how long before you get punished with a ticket.  Try not paying your taxes and see how the IRS punishes you.  Punishment is not simply something parents dole out to children... we are all punished in a myriad of ways all our lives.  That might be artificial in the form of an alarm clock, social in the form of the disapproval of others, or even natural as in the case of sunburn if we stay outside too long without sunscreen.  All these punishments act to modify our behavior, to change it.  That is the point of punishment in its original form.  Punishment is not about harm, revenge, anger or violence... its not about getting even... it is about changing behavior... correcting it.  When punishment is used for any other reason, whether its a parent punishing a child, a master punishing a slave, a society punishing a member... then it is a perversion of what punishment should be.  Such other case are, in my opinion, wrong.


What you have described from the real world examples - all very well chosen -- are what I personally would call "consequences" and I use those in my relationships.

"If you don't have my coffee made, you will be treated to Mrs. Asshole, you do realize?"
"If you choose not to have the toys brought up from the basement, we're not playing tonight."

But I elect not to use "punishments" of a corporal nature or a demeaning nature. I express disappointment, I explain consequences when they arise because of bad choices and I expect and gain adjustments.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 5:36:21 PM)

Punish whenever you feel like punishing.  Only the sub has to accept and find it reasonable.

Granted, most people use punishment completely improperly and it leads to all sorts of problems that could have been prevented, but I find it's like little boys who grab sticks to make pretend guns- they don't actually do the job, but they were the first and easiest objects they could grab when they started.



Padriag -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 5:45:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I agree with Padriag's posts...as I normall do.

I think people tend to look at punishment in the wrong way.

I view it in Skinner's terms of "negative reinforcement to correct a behavior."

I think all dominants should read up on B.F. Skinner's work regarding operant conditioning and behavioral science.

Then it shouldn't surprise you that I draw quite a bit on Skinner's work as well as Alfred Adler's.



MadRabbit -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 5:47:15 PM)

You were the one who recomended "Beyond Freedom and Dignity" to me. =)

I had only read essays and articles regarding Skinner up until that point.

Talk about an amazing book. Thank you for that =).

I have some references for Adler's work and a few other books from the credit page. I look forward to reading more in the future.



Padriag -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 5:48:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Granted, most people use punishment completely improperly and it leads to all sorts of problems that could have been prevented,

I very much agree... it seems the word "punishment" is sorely misunderstood, misapplied, and mistrusted.  Which is a pity considering that it can be a very useful tool.



TigerNINTails -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 5:54:12 PM)

I'm not one for punishment. In my mind, punishment means that I've let myself and my slave down, somewhere along the line, by not guiding and teaching her correctly.

I avoid punishment as much as possible, by utilizing discipline as a verbal and physical reminder to her what her place is, what is expected of her, how she's expected to follow through with it.

Reminding her daily (when I'm there) with physical discipline gives her a taste of what she misses if I have to punish her (as with most pain-sluts, it does no good to inflict physical pain, if you're trying to correct behavior), and it aids with instilling the self-discipline that I expect her to exhibit in everything that she does. This also serves the purpose to satiate her masochistic bent and my sadistic one.

I don't punish for something such as a disagreement. I mean, that would be silly, in my point of view. I may enforce some discipline on her for speaking to me in an incongruant way... Such as being disrespectful, or raising her voice inappropriately. This is usually verbal however, as whoopin' on her ass or tits with a cane or knotty flogger aren't doing much but rewarding her for being a smart ass, in that sense.

So I might rebuff her verbally, and have her exercise until I say stop, or something... Not that she hates exercise, but it's not something that when someone does it by themselves, is considered "fun" either. But I don't particularly call that a punishment. It's a reinforcement of her self-discipline... She has a hand in it, and it reminds her where her mind-set should be.

But I don't see, unless a Dom/me consistently punishes a submissive or slave unfairly, which would be more accurately described as excessively, or wantonly, where punishment could be wrong, perse. As always, it's meant to serve a purpose, which in general, is to stop dead cold in it's tracks, the undesired behaviour. If it's not being used to correct, or rather, to reinforce a correction, then in my opinion, punishment is being misused.

I'm more of the bent that "If I have to tell you or show you more than twice what or how to do something, we're going to lock horns." sort of mentality. If I'm constantly having to remind my slave of specific things I want done, or don't want done, then there's definitely something lacking on her part, I'd think. Unless of course, I'm failing to communicate something to her. Which I'd think would be easy enough for me to spot, after examining what she's missing, or doing incorrectly, or not doing at all.

So that said, I think that my signature line says it best... Consistent Discipline Renders Punishment Unnecessary... I've no idea the author, though it wasn't me. It just rings true for me.

But of course, as with all things, it's only true if it's applied in the correct mind-set. That would be the mind-set that you wish to achieve, over all. Or you wish your submissive or slave to achieve.

I'd just rather enforce discipline on and help to instill self discipline in my slave, and make that a habit for reinforcing our dynamic, than let things go to the point that I have to punish her. Punishment tends to leave a sour taste in my mouth, and sitting in the dark in a bad head-space.

Her punishment is almost as bad a punishment for me too... LOL... So I prefer to by-pass it altogether. If at all possible.

Peace.

TNT



ProlificNeeds -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 6:14:23 PM)

Accept the punishment, and discuss with him later when he's cooled off.
Or
Don't accept the punishment and defy him.

It's your relationship, you know what will go over best. If you think he's being unfair about something, talk to him about it, preferably when he's level headed, not when the two of you have just come out of an arguement. Sometimes, as unfair as it may seem, you need to weather his frustrations and moods. It is a partnership after all. If it's as simple as taking a few lashes or doing some chores you hate, just do it. Ask yourself, is the issue of arguement -really- worth dragging the fight out? Also ask yourself, are you consistently feeling he's being unfair, or is this a rare occurance? No one's perfect, especially when emotions are involved. It's not something you can solve out of context.



Griswold -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 7:14:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stateira

I understand and totally agree that a submissive should be punished if she is in the wrong.  But what if the submissive and dominant get in an argument (as people living together will sometimes do) that the dominant started or was a huge part of?  If the sub takes responsibility for her part of the argument and apologizes several times, but the dom won't acknowledge her apologies or that he had anything to do with the argument, even if he started the fight, should the submissive still be punished?


Well it's really quite simple;  The obvious answer is...I'd shoot him.



thetammyjo -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 7:37:05 PM)

Why would I punish over a disagreement?

I punish for disobedience in fact i can't fathom another reason to punish someone.

Now if the disagreement was actually a playing out of disobedience then punishment should be called for what it is -- punishing the disobedience not the disagreement.

Did that make any sense? I'm confused by what I just wrote above but it still makes sense to my mind. Can't think of a better way to say what I'm feeling on this issue at this moment.



slaveluci -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 8:51:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
Hmmm... one major punishment... so how many minor ones were there?

None.  Nothing I would consider punishment.  I suppose I added the word "major" because to me just being punished AT ALL was major[;)].  It's not something I'm used to and something I hope to never experience on any regular basis.
quote:

That was kind of him, but even by your own admission, it was something you were permitted to do, not something you had a right to do.  My advice was to submissives so that they would be most likely to avoid misunderstandings.  If an individual master or mistress chooses to permit other behavior, that is always their perrogative

Agreed for sure. 
quote:

As you wrote this, did you stop to consider that the very fact you felt the need to defend your action, to provide assurances you weren't seeking to escape the punishment, is proof of my point

I wouldn't say I was being defensive.  I was simply explaining that, contrary to what you had mentioned several times in your post, not all subs/slaves who wish to discuss a punishment before experiencing it are trying to weasel out of it[8D]
quote:

Then you stand corrected

Ok.  I can accept that.
quote:

Part of the error of the above assumptions is that you took it to an extreme... "that they aren't all that submissive
 
I didn't assume that.  I said it seemed to me like you might be saying that.  Remember, I stand corrected.[:)]
quote:

If you must assume something about me, assume this

I don't feel the need to assume anything about you.  Just responding to your post as you did mine.
quote:

So it should not be much of a surprise for you that since my method work quite well for me, I too am likewise content and not inclined to change

That's fine.  I was not attempting to persuade you to do so.  I was simply sharing another viewpoint that's just as legitimate and valid as yours. 
quote:

As for being humbled... you almost sound as if you feel it is something to be feared

Not at all.  I just don't see the point in forging ahead with what later may be discovered to be an "undeserved" punishment only to feel humbled about it afterward.  If one can take the time to listen to his/her sub/slave AFTER a punishment has been doled out, why not before and avoid the whole thing if need be?  That's all I'm saying.  Being humbled when necessary is a great thing.  I have no qualms with that. 
quote:

There's no shame in that, don't confuse being humbled with shame, they are not the same thing.  A little humility now and again keeps me grounded in reality and my head out of the clouds... I consider that a very good thing.

As do I.  There is absolutely no shame in being humbled.  As stated above, however, I don't see the need to go ahead and administer a punishment only to feel humble and filled with humility later if you've made a mistake.  My whole point was, if possible, simply avoid making the mistake in the first place by allowing discussion before not only after punishment......................luci



robertolapiedra -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/11/2007 9:35:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stateira

"I understand and totally agree that a submissive should be punished if she is in the wrong."  But what if the submissive and dominant get in an argument ... he started the fight, should the submissive still be punished?"


Hello stateira. When the sub "totally" agrees, it is consensual. If you do not "agree" to the "parameters" discussed before entering your dynamic? then it is time to redefine said "parameters".

Punishment in some dynamics could be considered "play" in others. In my dynamic, the slave must ask forgiveness. This means that she is consenting to the consequences that the master may impose afterwards. Most of the time, there are no consequences as the formal apology is sufficient.

If the slave does not apologise, I cannot give any direct consequences to the "fault" in question. I only have the option of stopping the D/s, and have a serious discussion about what ever is going on with the sub's "submission" in the dynamic.

In the end, "you" decide to submit or not to the rules, parameters and practices of your dynamic. You may have a limit concerning "punishment" that you were not aware about before.

To answer your question the way "you" posted it? No, you should not be punished. But we both know, it is not "that" simple. There must be other "underlying"  issues. Your dominant should know about these. RL.





liljoy -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/12/2007 3:29:27 AM)

Padriag,
As i'm reading this it looks like You punish first and then get the facts afterwards if offered. Is there no discussion before punishment about why a rule was broken or an order not followed?
i have a feeling that You aren't intending to that but that is how i'm reading it
lil_joy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Simple.  When a submissive is willing to accept the punishment first, and then discuss whether it was fair, it clearly shows their submission.  Then if the submissive feels the need to discuss it, feels it was unfair, etc. their is no question regarding their motives... they've already accepted the punishment.  It avoids a potential conflict (an argument over whether the submissive is trying to escape a punishment), demonstrates submission, and leaves the discussion for a time when it will mostly likely be best received.  Consider the frame of mind of a dominant who has just punished a submissive, the submissive accepted it without argument, and then only afterwards expressed what they felt was unfair.  I would imagine almost any dominant would be in such a frame of mind at that point to openly listen to what was said, without doubt or concern regarding the submissives motivation.  Of the few dominants who would not listen, I would question whether they cared about the submissive at all.  Personally, I would be favorably impressed with such a submissive.  If at that point they presented facts that convinced me the punishment was genuinely unfair or undeserved... it would be I who was humbled and I would seek to set things right.



ExSteelAgain -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/12/2007 3:38:49 AM)

I would physically punish more, but I get a hard on everytime I whip her and I suspect she gets wet being whipped. Heh.



bandit25 -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/12/2007 3:41:31 AM)

Since I usually agree with your posts also, perhaps it's more the incorrect use of punishment that I object to.  Oh well.  Whatever works.



jaunty1 -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/12/2007 5:25:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stateira

I understand and totally agree that a submissive should be punished if she is in the wrong.  But what if the submissive and dominant get in an argument (as people living together will sometimes do) that the dominant started or was a huge part of?  If the sub takes responsibility for her part of the argument and apologizes several times, but the dom won't acknowledge her apologies or that he had anything to do with the argument, even if he started the fight, should the submissive still be punished?

I would first have to ask what YOUR definition of punishment was. Are you referring to physical punishment? Or some other form ( being forced to write an essay or apology, corner time, etc )
 
I have physically punished melissa once in the 5 years that we have been together; I don't enjoy it and I feel that it's demeaning to her. In the past, when something has happened that DOES require attention; I try first to get to the root of the disobedience. It does no good to try and correct something if you are unaware of the real issue that is causing it.
 
AS for your direct question regarding arguments and yelling at each other; I would not tolerate a screaming match with melissa. If she disagrees with something that I say, she calmly and respectfully says so. The minute her voice raises; the conversation is over.
 
Live well
 
Alex



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