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Padriag -> RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? (7/12/2007 7:16:04 PM)
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ORIGINAL: losttreasure
Then your opinion flies in the face of what is commonly accepted.
And your point would be? Many things fly in the face of what is commonly accepted... this lifestyle for example, equal rights, the belief the world is round. Just because something isn't the commonly accepted or popular belief is not litmus test for veracity... only for public opinion.
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Punishment is not generally seen to be about modifying or changing behavior. It is a consequence… a penalty… it’s about paying a price. Threat of punishment is used as a deterrent. If you do X, then Y will happen. You don’t like Y? Then don’t to X.
Now this amuses me, and I'll tell you why. You're right, the popular belief is that punishment is not about changing behavior. And yet... in your very own example you prove that it is. You state punishment is used as a deterrent... quite correct, it can be used as such. Now think about this very carefully before you reply.... if punishment is used as a deterrent... what does it deter... it deters a certain behavior or behaviors. If you have deterred a behavior, what have you done? Changed it. Hence punishment does in fact modify behavior and is used as such. QED
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The following are phrases used in a few different dictionaries to describe “punishment”:
Lots of people have dictionaries and can pick definitions out of them. The flaw with that is that dictionaries, particularly recent editions tend to list the most commonly accepted meanins of a word. Thus it follows that many dictionaries will reflect that, it does not mean they are sources of absolute truth. If you want a better, functional definition of punishment, try picking up almost any college level (preferably doctorate level) text book and refer to its section on the use of punishment in behavior modification, or alternately refer to the work of B F Skinner, Alfred Adler, Carl Rogers and other behaviorist. Howeve, even here be braced for controversy because in more recent texts the controversy over punishment has crept in, despite the fact that research demonstrates its effective use as a tool in behavior modification. Popular opinion is indeed a powerful force... but not necessarily a correct one. Unfortunately, all too often, the mob does indeed rule.
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To be honest, your examples leave much to be desired, as well. An alarm clock is not a punishment in any fashion that I can imagine. It is a tool to awaken a person that is otherwise oblivious as to the time. If it were as you explained, a punishment used to correct behavior, a clock would only need to be used once or twice. If it were a punishment and the least bit effective, then you would quickly learn your lesson and wake on time without one.
You have a very poor grasp then of both behavior modification and the role of punishment, reinforcers and adverse stimuli in behavior modification. Again I would encourage you to take the time to read at least one college level text book on the subject, I can recommend three titles if you're genuinely interested.
However, in the interest of education, I'll try to explain more clearly exactly why what an alarm clock does is indeed a form of punishment. In behavior modification there are two kinds of reinforcers... those that are pleasant which are sometime called rewards, and those which are not and are termed aversive stimuli. Aversive stimuli have another name, punishers. Any stimulus which a subject (be it a lab rat or a person) reacts to aversively is an aversive stimuli or punisher. These are easily identified by the behavior they evoke, escape or evasion behaviors. By controling circumstance or conditions, we can use either rewards or punishers to modify behavior.
So here's why an alarm clock is a punishment.
Most of us don't like the sound of an alarm clock blarring at us... its annoying (which its intended to be). Thus it is an aversive stimuli or a punisher.
When it goes off early in the morning we seek to evade or escape it by hitting the snooze button or turning it off.
If we ignore it, it continues to annoy us by buzzing incessantly.
When we are affected by an aversive stimuli, we are being punished by it.
Thus the alarm clock is punishing us (applying a punisher or aversive stimuli in the form of the buzzing noise) for our behavior of sleeping past when we should have.
We wake up, which is a change in our previous behavior of sleeping... ergo, the punishment changed the behavior.
Its really about that simple.
Now that, I have no doubt, is well beyond the narrow, politically correct, popular opinion of punishment which paints a very limit picture of someone being beaten or thrown in prison or some other extreme. The problem with such popular images is that, like Hollywood, they often have a very limited connection to the reality of how things work.
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Speeding tickets and tax evasion penalties are punishment, but they do not teach you to obey the law or why you should obey the law. They are simply consequences.
Again, you fail to see how consequences for our actions can affect change in our behavior.
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I don’t dispute that people often require these consequences in order to coerce desired behavior. Penalties serve a valuable purpose. However, I will point out that people will only obey these laws so long as they fear the punishment and feel their risk of being caught is high. If these punishments are an effective way of modifying behavior, it is only temporary at best.
In some cases that is true. I would bet you that if tomorrow there were suddenly no longer any penalty for being late for work... a LOT of people would be late for work. And your point is?
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Perhaps you should consider what you previously wrote to give this impression…
I have, perhaps you should as well. While some have seen what I wrote in one way, others have seen it very differently. Here's a tip, take a break from pointing fingers and instead consider this. How can two artists paint a picture of the same tree, yet paint completely different pictures?
Here's a hint... has to do with perspective.
Oh hell, let's be blunt. Sometimes how something is understood is as much a function of the readers perspective as it is what was written.
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If you communicate your intentions this poorly, punish, then talk afterwards, I suspect you spend a great deal of time humbled and trying to make amends.
And you would be quite wrong. I spend very little time having to make amends. But then I don't spend as much time making assumptions as some here seem eager to do. Earlier, I made an admonishment to dominants about being rash in their judgements... something else you apparently failed to see. Perhaps that admonishment should also be made to submissives as well.
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Thank goodness most people and our society accepts the premise that guilt and determination of sentence are addressed prior to execution of punishment. Righting an injustice is nearly impossible for most of us mere mortals.
Chuckles, you do love your melodrama don't you. Let's be clear about some things. Firstly, a master punishing a slave is hardly on the same scale as society unjustly punishing some hapless innocent. I sincerely doubt any master here has either the intention or the means to lock up an errant slave for 30 years to life or execute them or some other such extreme. In most cases that "injustice" you seem so concerned about might be nothing more than being made to kneel in a corner, having internet privileges taken away or some other such "punishment" which does no actual harm, internet horror stories asside. And let us also not forget that this life style is not a court of law and does not pretend to be. Many dynamics, such as TPE, involve deliberate inequalities. In short, a master owns his slave, he (or she) does not have to justify their choice nor find proof of innocence or guilt, their decision is final. Of course one who was frequently hasty in such judgements and choices runs certain risks... which brings us back to something else you missed in my very first post... so I'll just quote myself.
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While it is the perrogative of the dominant to punish when they deem it appropriate, there are times when it is unwise. A dominant who is routinely unfair in their punishments risks losing the trust and respect of the submissive, and perhaps losing the submissive as a result. If a submissive thinks a punishment was unfair they can ask to discuss it... afterwards (rather than using the protest as a means of escaping punishment)... or else the submissive can simply walk out of the relationship (the ultimate form of protest).
My personal rule about punishing and disciplining a slave is simple.
Never punish in anger.
Or rephrased more bluntly, the dominant will or will not determine guilt when making their decision... and how rash or responsible their own behavior is will have its own consequences. However, once they make their decision, their rule is quite literally law in a D/s relationship. Excepting of course all those cases involving submissives who refuse to give up control and insist on a litany of rights, privileges, defense counsels, etc. But then one wonders in such cases if anything more than a mere shadow of D/s dynamic is in play.
Now I suspect some will have some snappy retorts explaining why I'm all wrong and possibly even why I'm a terrible master and a horrible human being... or maybe just an idiot who doesn't have a clue... or maybe you'll surprise me with something new. Regardless, I've said what I had to say and at this point I would say you either get it or you don't, either way, I'm fine with that. There are some who from the beginning get what I have said and agree. There are some who have considered it with an open mind and either agreed or not (and for those who did, thank you). And there are also some who for reasons of their own have disagreed from the start and end by only disagreeing more firmly. At which point things become an argument which is just about where we are now.
Want to know what you get out of an argument folks? Two people more firmly convinced they were right than when they started... and that's about all. So given that I'm out of town, dead tired, writing this on a lap top while a slave waits for what little attention I have to spare these days.... I'm just gonna say goodnight and leave the thread to those who have their own original opinions to offer.
Have fun. Later.
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