RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion

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kittinSol -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 2:55:16 PM)
My contraception failed. For the first time in seventeen years of very careful precautions. That's just my story though, and an easy one it is compared to the horrors some women go through. I'm well glad I was able to end the pregnancy. I have no regrets, and certainly not an iota of guilt over it.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 3:18:50 PM)
mistoferin: I agree with trying to encourage responsible behavior. I just don't know that we can get everyone on-board with that and I am cynical enough to believe that we won't succeed in all cases. I just want a way out for those that will continue to disappoint us all with their senseless behavior.

kittinSol -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 3:28:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro mistoferin: I just want a way out for those that will continue to disappoint us all with their senseless behavior. Huh, are you taking the proverbial piss here?

mistoferin -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 3:55:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro I agree with trying to encourage responsible behavior. I just don't know that we can get everyone on-board with that and I am cynical enough to believe that we won't succeed in all cases. I just want a way out for those that will continue to disappoint us all with their senseless behavior. I don't think it's cynical, I think it's realistic to know that it's not a goal that we will ever meet 100%. I don't know what the answer is honestly. As I've said, I do support choice and firmly believe that there are situations that make it necessary for some. The numbers are staggering though and the largest portion of them, according to statistics, are done as a result of irresponsible behavior or as a matter of convenience. I once worked for an obstetrician. One day a woman came in and saw the doctor who determined her to be a couple of months pregnant. When I went in the room to talk to her about prenatal supplements she cut me off quickly and said that she was probably not going to carry the child to term. I asked her if she would like me to refer her to someone for counseling to help her make her decision and go over her options with her. She was pissed off that I even suggested such a thing. After she left I mentioned the interaction with the doctor. He said she was probably going to abort but he would have no part in it. This surprised me as he did do some abortions. When I questioned him he opened her chart and pointed out to me that if she indeed aborted this baby, it would be her 17th abortion. Now many people would say I'm wrong in my opinion, but to me such blatant irresponsibility should be a criminal offense. Yes, that is an extreme example...but the numbers themselves are extreme. At the link that I posted, look at the percentages of abortions that are done because there was absolutely no contraception used.

kittinSol -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 3:58:29 PM)
mistoferin, if a woman is on her seventeenth abortion, she has a problem going that is worse than lack of responsibility. She has a death wish of some kind. She needs psychiatry. I am quite sure she is one major exception.

camille65 -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 4:06:11 PM)
From those that say most abortions are done in lieu of birth control, that women choose to do that over and over again instead of carrying to term, have you any percentages to back that up? I do not mean the one case that mistoferin came across but in the general population of women that seek abortion, how many are repeaters? I tried to look but was unable to find an unbiased source.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 4:16:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou See post 222. I conceded that I wasn't answering yuur question directly, but rather answering how an abortion could still be allowed during rape. Basicly it boils down to it would still be murder, but the rapist would be charged for the murder. Since it was his actions that led to the forced pregnancy. So technically, the child would be murdered under the law at the behest of the State, who would then charge somebody else for the child's murder. Seems to stretch the logical arguments presented by Right-To-Lifers rather circuitously. Would you take a turn performing the abortion? Or is this one of those NIMBY things. As long as you dont see it happening you can pretend it never happened. Sinergy p.s. NIMBY is an acronym for "Not In My BackYard." The sort of people who want coal fired power plants to produce inexpensive (to them) power, as long as they dont have to breath the exhaust. There are plenty of abortion doctors already, I don't see there being a problem locating one. I get the sense though nothing I can say will have any effect. Basicly, I'm saying whoever caused the event to occur is liable. That would be the rapist. And the woman must have the right to return herself to a condition before she was raped if possible, or else one would be saying she must endure the consequences of anothers unlawful behavior. It isn't pretty. It is simply a way to allow a raped woman to still be able to remove the pregnancy, and still hold somone accountable. You should understand this argument. Is the soldier liable for Iraq war or is it george bush and company.(Figure this should be more up your alley, LOL) Obviously the soldier pulled the trigger, but who caused that chain of events to unfold? If you say Bush, then it is virtually the same as the rape scenario and the abortion. The rapist caused the situation in the first place, so is liable. I think it would work well enough.

mistoferin -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 4:21:04 PM)
According to this study http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html quote: Each year, two out of every 100 women aged 15–44 have an abortion; 48% of them have had at least one previous abortion. quote: About half of American women have experienced an unintended pregnancy, and at current rates more than one-third will have had an abortion by age 45. quote: Fifty-four percent of women having abortions used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users reported using their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users reported correct use. Forty-six percent of women having abortions did not use a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% perceived themselves to be at low risk, 32% had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had unexpected sex and 1% were forced to have sex. Eight percent of women having abortions have never used a method of birth control; nonuse is greatest among those who are young, poor, black, Hispanic or less educated. About half of unintended pregnancies occur among the 11% of women at risk of unintended pregnancy who did not use contraceptives in the month they became pregnant. Most of these women had practiced contraception in the past. The sources listed where the information was obtained seems pretty varied and unlikely to be biased.

Level -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 4:26:13 PM)
And if anyone thinks the Guttmacher Institute is a bunch of neo-con stat-benders: http://www.guttmacher.org/about/alan-bio.html

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 4:40:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Huh, are you taking the proverbial piss here? No, we were discussing how some people aren't even trying to be responsible in the first place. Such people exist, even if they are not you or I. We are responsible and we try to prevent conception while still taking our pleasures. But we are happy to have a Plan B if the need arises. But the people that need choices open to them are not always of the highest quality nor do they always behave responsibly with their bodies. There are many reasons for such, among them people that are just plain lazy. I still want options for them, even if they aren't particularly thoughtful or ethical in how they conduct themselves. As stated previously, I am cheerleader for Planned Parenthood. I am all about choice and education. It would be nice if people would take more initiative in risk planning the consequences of their sexual behavior. I support choice in all cases. Mistoferin generally supports choice but takes exception to this one procedure sometimes called "partial birth abortion." We're still generally in agreement though. At least that's how I see it. What, do I need to be more combative here or risk losing all credibility? [:D]

CuriousLord -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 5:54:57 PM)
You know, something I was going to say in the last post (where I asked you which question you were referring to), though a double Ctrl-Z destroyed.. First and foremost, I am a scientist. Contrary to popular belief, this does not mean I take a strong, liberal stance, in the manner of "liberal" being "opposed to convention at all points". I like to evaluate things, and search for the truth. If abortion's perfectly fine, I'd have no problems with it- so long as it were true. If abortion were a sin against the highest power in existence, I'd have no problems with it- so long as it were true. I find it difficult to make my points to those with agendas- even if the agenda happens to be moderism. Most of all, I find it distressing that cynical individuals may believe it to be progressive or intelligent to support abortion. I also find it distressing to see that religious may believe it to be righteous or moral to oppose abortion. After all, if abortion is in violation of the spirit of social rights, how is supporting it intelligent? Similiarly, if abortion is fine, yet one tries to stop others from using it in practical situations, how is supporting it good? My friend, are people trapped in such silly generalizations? Do you believe that such might come to see the ignorance in pig-headness or the evil in in blind cages?

Sinergy -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 6:08:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin No, no punishing. But then again I don't see accepting and living up to one's responsibilities as punishing. I will spread the word the next time I go to a Men and Women Against Rape conference. "Accept and live up to your responsibilities to the child growing inside you." Hrm. Sinergy

mistoferin -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 8:12:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin No, no punishing. But then again I don't see accepting and living up to one's responsibilities as punishing. I will spread the word the next time I go to a Men and Women Against Rape conference. "Accept and live up to your responsibilities to the child growing inside you." Hrm. Sinergy Sinergy, I am not sure where exactly you got the impression that I am opposed to abortion in the case of rape but honestly I am offended that you would even connect me in any way to such a remark. I have never stated such or even alluded to such a line of thought. But while we are on the subject, abortions resulting from rape account for an estimated 0.3 to 1% of all abortions. Of the the pregnancies that are a result of rape, you may find it interesting that only about 50% of those women choose to abort. 32% choose to keep the baby, 6% give the baby up for adoption and an additional 12% miscarry. Rape victims in this country are generally offered contraceptive medication that will prevent a pregnancy if they seek medical attention immediately. Even if this is not done and a pregnancy occurs, the vast majority of rape victims who choose to abort will do so early in pregnancy. This thread is about partial birth abortion which is done in late term. I can not see the rape itself as being a valid reason that would necessitate this type of abortion.

Sinergy -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 8:22:19 PM)
I understand and agree with your arguments, NeedToUseYou. My point is that it is disingenuous to call abortion "murder" in one set of circumstances, yet not "murder" in another. It is abortion. It is done or not done for various reasons. The argument is about what set of reasons are valid reasons, which qualifies as choice. Abortion is a medical procedure where the necessity is determined between a licensed medical practitioner and his/her patient. Repealing Roe vs. Wade changes the nature of this interaction by adding government control to providing medical care to a patient, and the arguments presented by the Right-To-Life crowd are circuitous. Sinergy

CuriousLord -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/20/2007 11:19:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy Abortion is a medical procedure where the necessity is determined between a licensed medical practitioner and his/her patient. I'd ask two questions here. -Are you saying that people don't get abortions unless they're necessary? If so, how would you define "necessary" in this context? -How do you feel about a medical practioner being a part of such a decision?

mistoferin -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 6:29:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy Abortion is a medical procedure where the necessity is determined between a licensed medical practitioner and his/her patient. I'd ask two questions here. -Are you saying that people don't get abortions unless they're necessary? If so, how would you define "necessary" in this context? -How do you feel about a medical practioner being a part of such a decision? Those are good questions. If 98% of all abortions are elective, that suggests it is the woman who determines the "necessity". The medical practitioner then determines if the woman is healthy enough to undergo the procedure and performs it.

kittinSol -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 7:44:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy Abortion is a medical procedure where the necessity is determined between a licensed medical practitioner and his/her patient. I'd ask two questions here. -Are you saying that people don't get abortions unless they're necessary? If so, how would you define "necessary" in this context? -How do you feel about a medical practioner being a part of such a decision? Those are good questions. If 98% of all abortions are elective, that suggests it is the woman who determines the "necessity". The medical practitioner then determines if the woman is healthy enough to undergo the procedure and performs it. Hmmm... mostly it works the other way around. The doctor decides whether the pregnancy would endanger the woman's wellbeing and would act accordingly. Pregnancy is more dangerous than abortion. Pregnancy is the number one cause of death in women of childbearing age. Childbirth is a hugely risky moment in a woman's life. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19389326/site/newsweek/ Abortion, on the other hand, however distasteful it may be to some, is a quick, relatively painless procedure.

mistoferin -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 8:56:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy Abortion is a medical procedure where the necessity is determined between a licensed medical practitioner and his/her patient. I'd ask two questions here. -Are you saying that people don't get abortions unless they're necessary? If so, how would you define "necessary" in this context? -How do you feel about a medical practioner being a part of such a decision? Those are good questions. If 98% of all abortions are elective, that suggests it is the woman who determines the "necessity". The medical practitioner then determines if the woman is healthy enough to undergo the procedure and performs it. Hmmm... mostly it works the other way around. The doctor decides whether the pregnancy would endanger the woman's wellbeing and would act accordingly. Pregnancy is more dangerous than abortion. Pregnancy is the number one cause of death in women of childbearing age. Childbirth is a hugely risky moment in a woman's life. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19389326/site/newsweek/ Abortion, on the other hand, however distasteful it may be to some, is a quick, relatively painless procedure. I'm sorry but that is simply not true in the vast majority of cases. Most abortions are not done because of medical necessity or danger, they are done electively. If you reference the studies that I posted you will see that the estimates are that 98% of all abortions in this country are elective, done for socio-economic reasons, poor timing, convenience, etc. Not because anyone is physically "endangered" by the pregnancy.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 10:01:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin If you reference the studies that I posted you will see that the estimates are that 98% of all abortions in this country are elective, done for socio-economic reasons, poor timing, convenience, etc. Stop right there! How blithely you skip passed it... From your own source: ----- WHO HAS ABORTIONS Fifty-two percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25: Women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and teenagers obtain 19%. Black women are almost four times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.5 times as likely. Forty-three percent of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% as Catholic. Two-thirds of all abortions are among never-married women. Over 60% of abortions are among women who have had one or more children. The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women). On average, women give four reasons for choosing abortion. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner. ----- So whenever someone (usually a white person significantly above the poverty level - because I doubt those under the poverty level have the time for this kind of stuff) steps up and argues against some procedure or other they are speaking mainly to young, black or hispanic, single, childless, and poor women and telling them to buck up and do what society expects of them. Nice. "...three-fourths say they cannot afford a child..." Well, I'm just glad we are agreeing that keeping abortion legal is a good thing for women. I'm not going to the downtrodden and telling them to perform what amounts to some kind of attenuated forced servitude in order to appease white guilt over anything.

Level -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 10:12:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro I'm not going to the downtrodden and telling them to perform what amounts to some kind of attenuated forced servitude in order to appease white guilt over anything. "White guilt"?

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