RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion

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SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 10:14:58 AM)
Well, someone who is outside the named groups and able to pursue other options. You connect the dots...

Level -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 10:17:46 AM)
I don't see much connection between "white guilt" and the abortion issue, if for no other reason than most white people don't feel guilty, and shouldn't.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 10:29:16 AM)
We have identified yet another problem where most of the people that appear to oppose something are members of a group that would seem to think they won't need access to it (at least not publicly). Not to go off on a tangent, but it is very often people with carry permits and that actually own guns themselves that pursue gun control legislation. And, of course, that always smacks of hypocrisy. They want a right for themselves that they would in turn limit for others. And I'm sorry, but I happen to think of the anti-choice movement as people of specific religious beliefs and generally they are white. I am sure there are exceptions to this perception, but I am comfortable that my generalizations typify the movement. I couldn't quickly find lots of data to contradict it, so I leave it there for now.

Sinergy -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 10:44:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Huh, are you taking the proverbial piss here? No, we were discussing how some people aren't even trying to be responsible in the first place. Such people exist, even if they are not you or I. We are responsible and we try to prevent conception while still taking our pleasures. But we are happy to have a Plan B if the need arises. But the people that need choices open to them are not always of the highest quality nor do they always behave responsibly with their bodies. There are many reasons for such, among them people that are just plain lazy. I still want options for them, even if they aren't particularly thoughtful or ethical in how they conduct themselves. As stated previously, I am cheerleader for Planned Parenthood. I am all about choice and education. It would be nice if people would take more initiative in risk planning the consequences of their sexual behavior. I support choice in all cases. Mistoferin generally supports choice but takes exception to this one procedure sometimes called "partial birth abortion." We're still generally in agreement though. At least that's how I see it. What, do I need to be more combative here or risk losing all credibility? [:D] Pretty much my point of view. I view the legislation being proposed from a very jaundiced perception. Considering where the issue started from (Catholicism and it's various schisms) and where it is going (take away all forms of birth control and stop all sex except what is needed for procreation), and considering how poorly written the law is, and how many religious leaders rail endlessly against things (affairs, homosexuality, drugs, etc) that they themselves do, I am also a cheerleader for Pro-Choice. I wanted to add my piece to SugarMyChurro's points; I do not see it my call to sit in judgement of other people and their foibles, their situations, their decisions, their imperfections, because I do not see myself as being perfect or all-knowing. Fascinates me that there are people who do, but I just smile and nod and hope it works out for them. Sinergy

KatyLied -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 11:25:23 AM)
I am also going to chime in as a cheerleader for pro-choice. I really do not and never will understand why anyone would want to interfere in a woman's reproductive choice. It's one of those things that I just don't get. I also don't understand how abortion can be touted as good in some cases (incest, rape) and bad in others (birth control method failure), depending on the circumstances of conception. I want women to have options, even if I don't agree with the option they select. As far as partial birth abortion, as stated previously, I find it gruesome and question why a procedure of that nature would be used, when there are other ways to proceed with a labor/delivery.

CuriousLord -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 12:12:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro We have identified yet another problem where most of the people that appear to oppose something are members of a group that would seem to think they won't need access to it (at least not publicly). Not to go off on a tangent, but it is very often people with carry permits and that actually own guns themselves that pursue gun control legislation. And, of course, that always smacks of hypocrisy. They want a right for themselves that they would in turn limit for others. And I'm sorry, but I happen to think of the anti-choice movement as people of specific religious beliefs and generally they are white. I am sure there are exceptions to this perception, but I am comfortable that my generalizations typify the movement. I couldn't quickly find lots of data to contradict it, so I leave it there for now. I'm hoping you do realize that a racially-held view in the absense of scientific evidence is the esscential definition of racism? And who in the pro-life movement wants to deny others of a right they'd keep for themselves? (Are you saying that they'd want to be able to have abortions, themselves?)

Level -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 12:26:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied I am also going to chime in as a cheerleader for pro-choice. I really do not and never will understand why anyone would want to interfere in a woman's reproductive choice. It's one of those things that I just don't get. I also don't understand how abortion can be touted as good in some cases (incest, rape) and bad in others (birth control method failure), depending on the circumstances of conception. Because, for some, it's an attempt to save a human life. I'll say once again, that I don't expect any of the pro-choice cheerleading squadron ( [:-] ) to agree with that, I do ask that it be understood. Supporting (or tolerating) abortion in the case of incest, or rape does not mean pro-life cheerleaders see it as "good". Incredibly, some of the pro-lifers have hearts and minds, and are conflicted, and empathetic, with the people that find themselves in such situations.

luckydog1 -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 12:33:42 PM)
First of all I want to say I am Pro Choice. But I don't kid myself, I support it for the same reason as I do Capital Punishment. Sometimes it is just easier to kill and be done with it. For the most part it is killing for convience. One has to just go back and read Margret Sanger and the early propenets of Birth Controll and Aboprtion to know what one of thier overriding goals was, to keep the number of Blacks (and to a lesser extent poor whites) low. Suggar chimed in with the data showing that is still what is occuring today. One of the supreme ironies in modern politics ties in to Sanger and the founding of Planned Parenthood. You have all heard the vuage story that Bushes Grandfather, Prescott, was a Nazi. The story is never gone into great detail (for a reason), but is based on 2 "facts". The company Prescott worked for had joint ventures with germans. One a guy named Thiesen (sp) was an early hitler supporter, but ended up being put into the camps. They had a joint shipping company that did carry materials used by the nazis (it also carrired refugees fleeing), it had boats in the water when War was declared and they got charged under trading wit the enemy. But the second part is that Prescott was a supporter of Eugenics, and as evidence they point out his huge finacial support of Margret Sanger (founder of Planned Parenthood)

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 12:52:38 PM)
It was an off the cuff observation, certainly in the U.S. and the U.K. the movement seems to be mainly white people - it's almost always linked to certain religious views. I am open to proof contradicting me. Go for it. And yes, people with means always have alternatives to conceal their hypocrisy. Why is that an odd observation? Similarly, Bush hasn't sent his own daughters to die in Iraq, right? Yet he created/supports the war. My point is that he doesn't put his on children's lives at risk as he asks everyone else to do. Bush's girls play at being the jet-set and fall down drunk party girls while others die. Would you happen to know the ethnic and economic class mix of today's military? Where there's money there's a way. And hypocrisy abounds. BTW, there are those that take exactly what I noticed but then view it in a completely different way: "Nowhere was the absence of minorities more apparent than in Washington last Monday as tens of thousands of anti-abortion activists from around the country participated in the annual March for Life. Television reports and newspaper photographs projected an image of thousands of earnest, enthusiastic and nearly all white protesters." http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1567129/posts It would seem that they are also arguing that the pro-choice movement is intentionally supposed to be perceived as white. If that's incorrect, please show me the evidence opposing this perception. I'm still pro-choice either way.

mistoferin -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 12:58:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro So whenever someone (usually a white person significantly above the poverty level - because I doubt those under the poverty level have the time for this kind of stuff) steps up and argues against some procedure or other they are speaking mainly to young, black or hispanic, single, childless, and poor women and telling them to buck up and do what society expects of them. Nice. "...three-fourths say they cannot afford a child..." Well, I'm just glad we are agreeing that keeping abortion legal is a good thing for women. I'm not going to the downtrodden and telling them to perform what amounts to some kind of attenuated forced servitude in order to appease white guilt over anything. I'm not sure what you are implying here but I can tell you that it is obvious that you know very little about me. I have had plenty of experience living below the poverty level myself. I have also devoted most of my adult working life making a difference in the lives of young, poor, minority women. I can assure you that I am not sitting in an ivory tower casting stones at the downtrodden.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 1:03:06 PM)
Just a follow-up to comments by luckydog1... I don't know that race plays the part that everyone thinks it does in these scenarios, although I can easily believe that historically it played more of a role than it does at the present. In my opinion an enormous indicator for what someone is going to do is simple economics. How much money do they have? What solutions do they have access to? Class is rarely discussed in american politics, but it's a big factor that often goes ignored.

Level -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 1:07:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro It was an off the cuff observation, certainly in the U.S. and the U.K. the movement seems to be mainly white people - it's almost always linked to certain religious views. I am open to proof contradicting me. Go for it. And yes, people with means always have alternatives to conceal their hypocrisy. Why is that an odd observation? Do you really see someone with a concealed permit that also supports gun laws as a "hypocrite"? Similarly, Bush hasn't sent his own daughters to die in Iraq, right? Yet he created/supports the war. My point is that he doesn't put his on children's lives at risk as he asks everyone else to do. Bush's girls play at being the jet-set and fall down drunk party girls while others die. Would you happen to know the ethnic and economic class mix of today's military? No, but here's some tidbits: quote: The report says that while 91% of last year's recruits were high school graduates, only 80% of U.S. residents aged 18 to 24 have attained that level of education Critics have claimed that minorities are over-represented in the all-volunteer military because they have fewer options in the civilian world. The CBO disputes that, saying that "members of the armed forces are racially and ethnically diverse." African Americans accounted for 13% of active-duty recruits in 2005, just under their 14% share of 17-to-49-year-olds in the overall U.S. population. And minorities are not being used as cannon fodder. "Data on fatalities indicate that minorities are not being killed [in Iraq and Afghanistan] at greater rates than their representation in the force," the study says. "Rather, fatalities of white service members have been higher than their representation in the force," in large part because whites are over-represented in the military's combat, as opposed to support, jobs. http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070721/us_time/restoringthedraftnopanacea Where there's money there's a way. And hypocrisy abounds. BTW, there are those that take exactly what I noticed but then view it in a completely different way: "Nowhere was the absence of minorities more apparent than in Washington last Monday as tens of thousands of anti-abortion activists from around the country participated in the annual March for Life. Television reports and newspaper photographs projected an image of thousands of earnest, enthusiastic and nearly all white protesters." http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1567129/posts It would seem that they are also arguing that the pro-choice movement is intentionally supposed to be perceived as white. If that's incorrect, please show me the evidence opposing this perception. I'm still pro-choice either way.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 1:09:49 PM)
mistoferin: I wasn't trying to imply anything about your motives. I apologize if it seemed that way. I was just trying to identify the groups most effected by the policy issues under discussion. Your link showed us who is most effected. I don't really buy into all of that Eugenics stuff, not when poor whites were also an effected group. If anything, and as noted above already, it tends to be folks with money trying to tell the folks without money what to do with themselves. Race is probably just a concurrent indicator of where someone is going to fall within those two groups.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 1:15:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070721/us_time/restoringthedraftnopanacea September 9, 2006: The half century long over-representation of African-Americans in the U.S. Army is ending. Over the last six years, the percentage of black recruits has fallen from 23.3 percent in 2000, to 22.7 percent of 2001, 19.9 percent in 2002, 16.4 percent in 2003, 13.9 percent in 2004 and 13.5 percent in 2005. Blacks comprise 13 percent of the general population (and 14 percent of the military age population). However, even with the drop in the number of black recruits, the army is still 21 percent black. Since September 11, 2001, there has been a shift in who is joining the military. More whites, Hispanics and other minorities are joining, but fewer blacks. The war on terror, and especially the war in Iraq, has been unpopular in the Afro-American community, and this unpopularity has been promoted by many black political and religious leaders. http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htatrit/articles/20060909.aspx ----- Comment: money, opportunity - these indicate what happens next.

CuriousLord -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 2:14:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro It was an off the cuff observation, certainly in the U.S. and the U.K. the movement seems to be mainly white people - it's almost always linked to certain religious views. I am open to proof contradicting me. Go for it. And I observe that the popstar celebrity, <someone>, is actually an alien being in human's skin, who plans to take over the world. Point being, points need to be supported- not contradicted- with information, when they claim to be an observation. Not that you aren't free to make it- simply, it does conform to the criteria of racism. quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro And yes, people with means always have alternatives to conceal their hypocrisy. Why is that an odd observation? An odd observation because you seem to assume that the means to conceal something necessitates that something being there. And, with something such as money, which is the means to do a lot- you must think rich people do quite a lot! quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro Similarly, Bush hasn't sent his own daughters to die in Iraq, right? Yet he created/supports the war. My point is that he doesn't put his on children's lives at risk as he asks everyone else to do. Bush's girls play at being the jet-set and fall down drunk party girls while others die. Would you happen to know the ethnic and economic class mix of today's military? Pft. Too many drunken college kids these days. Still, some sign up for the services. Such is a serious commitment. quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro Where there's money there's a way. And hypocrisy abounds. Yeah, above, I sort of predicted you'd feel this way. I sense some embitterment towards the rich in you. quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro BTW, there are those that take exactly what I noticed but then view it in a completely different way: "Nowhere was the absence of minorities more apparent than in Washington last Monday as tens of thousands of anti-abortion activists from around the country participated in the annual March for Life. Television reports and newspaper photographs projected an image of thousands of earnest, enthusiastic and nearly all white protesters." http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1567129/posts It would seem that they are also arguing that the pro-choice movement is intentionally supposed to be perceived as white. If that's incorrect, please show me the evidence opposing this perception. I'm still pro-choice either way. You're saying that a movement is inheriently racist because, according to some random blogger, not many minorities showed up to a particular rally? Was there any report of minorities being discouraged/barred/discriminated against? In any case, you're using the religious arguement. "There's a God." "Really?" "Yeah. And, unless you can prove I'm wrong, I'm right." This is anti-scientific, so, while you're free to use it, I can't respect it as a valid point.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 2:38:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Point being, points need to be supported... I have provided support, which you have chosen now to ignore. Nice. The reason I didn't support it to begin with as that I believe the fact that the Pro-life movement is comprised and spearheaded by mostly white christian men is well established. I feel like you are asking me to prove that grass is green. quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord I sense some embitterment towards the rich in you. Nope, just an idle observation about the nature of hypocrisy. Hypocrisy requires that one be in a position to claim one viewpoint while privately doing something in opposition to the publicly stated viewpoint. Money is the lubricant. The reason money comes up in this conversation is because it is a policy issue effecting the lower classes. BTW, your grasp of English is atrocious. The word you seek is "bitterness." quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord You're saying that a movement is inheriently racist because, according to some random blogger, not many minorities showed up to a particular rally? Was there any report of minorities being discouraged/barred/discriminated against? Actually I never said any such thing. I said that a seemingly predominantly white movement often claiming certain religious beliefs was apparently trying to tell mainly minority and poor people how to behave. They claim the activity they object to is murder and their desire to stop it is clearly based on some sense of communal guilt - that by allowing it to be legal they are also implicated. That's as best as I understand the movement and why they claim a higher moral ground in trying to tell others what to do. The original source is the St. Louis Post-Dispatch - a newspaper and not some random blogger. But either way, information is information. I can tell that you didn't read it.

CuriousLord -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 2:58:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Point being, points need to be supported... I have provided support, which you have chosen now to omit. Nice. For lack of being a scientific support. Keep up. (Trust me, I have the monopoly on snide comments. Try to keep to logic points, and it'll be better, perhaps even get somewhere.) quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord I sense some embitterment towards the rich in you. Nope, just an idle observation about the nature of hypocrisy. Hypocrisy requires that one be in a position to claim one viewpoint while privately doing something in opposition to the publicly stated viewpoint. Money is the lubricant. What I'm curious about, though, is why this comes up? Why your concern for racism and elitism in this matter? quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro The reason money comes up in this conversation is because it is a policy issue effecting the lower classes. Hah, score! An answer to the question before a response. :P Alright, so you think that this policy unequally applies, so the rich shouldn't be part of the conversation? Or that they should have differnet laws for themselves? quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro BTW, your grasp of English is atrocious. The word you seek is "bitterness." Erm.. while I can respect the fact you're trying to be immature here.. I would like to point out the fact that "embitterment" is a word. As a matter of fact, if you click the link, you'll plainly see "em·bit·ter·ment [image]http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif[/image] /-m&nt/ noun "- with a link which will pronouce the word for you, if you find yourself in such a need. Not that misusing a single word would make one's English "atrocious", had you even been correct in thinking it was misused. I'd like to ask you to not attempt such snide comments in the future. Still, if you chose to- let's try to refrain to accurate ones, shall we? I can't have someone both encroaching on my art and defiling it! quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord You're saying that a movement is inheriently racist because, according to some random blogger, not many minorities showed up to a particular rally? Was there any report of minorities being discouraged/barred/discriminated against? Actually I never said any such thing. I said that a seemingly predominantly white movement often claiming certain religious beliefs was apparently trying to tell mainly minority and poor people how to behave. They claim the activity they object to is murder and their desire to stop it is clearly based on some sense of communal guilt - that by allowing it to be legal they are also implicated. That's as best as I understand the movement and why they claim a higher moral ground in trying to tell others what to do. How is citing mortality a point against them? quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro The original source is the St. Louis Post-Dispatch - a newspaper and not some random blogger. But either way, information is information. I can tell that you didn't read it. Never heard of it before. Still, I'm not that well read on Internet blogs. Afraid I did read it. I was going to mention some of the responses in it, but, should I have done so, and also stated I felt it was unscientific- that'd have been something of a contradiction, would it have not? Edit: Missed quote tag.

SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 2:59:48 PM)
since this seems to have gone from partial birth abortion to all abortions, i will add my 2 cents.... i am adopted......had abortion been here and easily available in 1961, i might not be here.....ive never thought about it much, but the thought has crossed my mind. when i got pregnant with my son, the first words out of my exes mouth were "its ok, WE can get an abortion". having never thought i would get pregnant, because the drs had told me so and i was 25 years old, i said no way and we broke up.....i had my son, we ended up back together for 14 more years.......he was 13 years older than me and did not want to raise more kids, told me he wasnt a good dad, and i should have listened to him..... 5 years later, i got pregnant again because birth control failed......i told him, and ill just say it wasnt pleasant......he said many things that should have made me run for good, but i was young and dependant on him in so many ways. i ended that pregnancy with an abortion.....it was an excrutiatingly hard decision, but i made it and i have never felt any type of guilt or remorse.....i gave thought to the "i might not be here if abortion was readily available in 61" and then decided i am here and i have to make the best decision for me and my son. and i told him no more sex unless he got a vascetomy, and that was the beginning of the end of our marriage-he got the vascetomy, but never got over the reason why he got it.....and i understand that... my cousin got pregnant due to bc failing......she had 3 children already and was at a very rough time in her life emotionally....she and her husband discussed it, they made appts, and she got an abortion and he got a vascetomy in the same trip......she didnt even have to ask him to do that....btw they are still together and all happy and all that chyt. all this leads to me saying, i wouldnt have another one, but i wouldnt change my decision i made at the time......and before being in the situation, my cuz and i had discussed them and both said we didnt believe in them..... i hada point when i started typing, i hope i made it somehow.

kittinSol -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 3:17:36 PM)
Katy, I think I explained at length now why an intact D&E may be chosen over another abortive method. It can actually be the safest way to terminate a late-term pregnancy. Certainly, it's far, far less gruesome than tearing the fetus to pieces in utero. I trust that sometimes it is the best way. I also know for a fact that the political body has gathered around the issue of intact D&E in order to focus the attention of the electorate; just as they did years ago over the other abortion methods. I think it should be up to the doctor to decide which way to proceed.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/21/2007 3:25:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Hah, score! An answer to the question before a response. :P Alright, so you think that this policy unequally applies, so the rich shouldn't be part of the conversation? Or that they should have differnet laws for themselves? Uh, no. Please reread the thread. I'm not here to clarify things for you when you can read them for yourself. You are hilariously ignorant, and it shows. quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord ...I would like to point out the fact that embitterment is a word Yes, and it was the wrong word in context. Your phrase is this: "I sense some embitterment towards the rich in you." What you mean to say: "I sense some bitterness toward the rich in you." I leave it to you to figure out the difference - your version is at least awkward if not an outright incorrect usage. My version may not be perfect but it is allowable as common speech (vernacular). You have to be careful CuriousLord, I am quite close to blocking you because I find you almost incomprehensible. It's not that we disagree, I disagree with others here all the time. The problem with you is trying to first unpack what you are trying to say, and then possibly replying to what I think you are trying to say. I admit that no one is perfect and that a forum posting is a fairly casual type of writing, but then it's not my job to read anything you write nor to reply to you either.

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