RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion

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RCdc -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 9:07:46 AM)
FR If the pregnancy is already beyond saving, then it is pointless and heartless to make a woman go through full birthing. If mother risks death or serious illness due to giving birth then again, it is a non issue - the abortion does deliver the unfortunately necessary measure. There are of course the lovelies who want to make people believe that this procedure is a common occurance. It's not it's probably not even 5% of all abortions - however some of the reasons for this procedure wouldn't occur (for example, not being allowed a early termination due to unavailability or doctors 'moral codes') and shouldn't even really exist in a healthy and ethical society. However I do think it is a ridiculous argument to start saying it is a men in suits Vs. womens rights issue and playing on the whole 'womens rights' shit because that is no different that tugging on heartstrings and no more satisfactory than some fundementalist harping on about 'the rights of the child'. This whole issue goes way beyond the rights of any 'individual' and orientation or gender. Peace the.dark.

Lashra -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 9:08:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54 All abortion should be illegal save for when delivering the child endangers the mother. It is not an issue about controlling your body, it's an issue about murder. plain and simple, abortion is murder. How about when 12 year old girls are impregnanted by their own Fathers? Should they be forced to bare a child from this situation and "live with it"? Personally I would consider that a living HELL. How about women who have been raped and impregnated should they be sentanced to raising a child they do not want? Oh yes there is adoption of course and if the baby is white it has a good chance of being adopted, but what about babies who aren't? Do you know the statistics? How about when this child decides to go back and find out who its birth parents were only to find out s/he was conceived out of rape? Do you think that will make them feel all warm and fuzzy inside? I don't think so. I am Pro-choice and frankly I do not like partial birth abortion. I think if you choose to have an abortion do it as soon as possible, do not wait! There are circumstances that go beyond the normal teenagers who get pregnant because they lacked the sense to use a condom, sometimes horrible circumstances have occurred and do we really have the right to tell them after the suffering they've endured that they will have to live with it the rest of their lives? Also take note, there are not vans of abortion doctors going around grabbing pregnant women off the streets and forcing them to abort . This is a CHOICE a woman makes and it is a difficult one. As far as I am concerned what she does with her body is her business. As far as enacting new laws here's one for you, any man found to have impregnanted a woman who chose to have an abortion should be made to be sterlized. This would put a stop to many unwanted pregnancies because suddenly a lot of men would see the need for condoms. ~Lashra

kittinSol -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 9:11:23 AM)
Oh, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I think it very much is a question of women's rights as well as an ethical question. Personally, I have solved the ethical part of it. It's harsh, but it just has to be.

RCdc -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 9:16:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra As far as enacting new laws here's one for you, any man found to have impregnanted a woman who chose to have an abortion should be made to be sterlized. This would put a stop to many unwanted pregnancies because suddenly a lot of men would see the need for condoms. ~Lashra I don't disagree with you Lashra, but if that was to become an act, my add-on would be that women should be made to be sterized also, unless the reason was rape etc. I believe that as women, we can't be all up in arms and blame males or cause them to suffer, if as a female, we do not take responsibility for our bodies first and foremost. Peace the.dark.

farglebargle -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 9:21:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Why are you looking at me, fargly? You know we agree on almost everything [:D]. Oh, no, that was a general post on the topic. Sorry for any misconfusion.

camille65 -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 9:28:37 AM)
I'm not reading the replies on this only because it is such an emotionally charged issue for many people and that isn't what I want to address. The ban worries me because IMO it is going to hold the door open for further bans and stricter laws on a womans right to choose. I do not want to see that happen. There will always be those that want to terminate a pregnancy, always have been.. always will be. I think it would be a disaster to return to the times when abortion was done in unsanitary conditions and untrained peoples.

mrbob726 -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 9:30:13 AM)
quote: Republicans are pro-life. Republicans are evil. Be careful with generalisations - I might consider anyone under 21 (CL for example) to be totally ignorant about life, and too stupid to be posting on a forum like this, regardless of IQ. That being said, I'm a Republican, and proud of it, proud of most of the general stated views of the Republican party. Am I proud of what many of our elected officials do in office? Not by a long shot, nor am I proud that the party has allowed itself to be taken over by the fundamentalist religious right. Very few politicians of either party are to be trusted, IMO. As to the question in the OP, I believe that so called partial birth abortions are so few in number as to be almost insignificant. I believe only the woman has the right to determine what's best for her, and that the gov't should mind its own business. edited to clarify*

QuietlySeeking -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 9:32:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Your concise economic argumentation also leads me to this wholly (holy!) mercantile point: if all the accidental pregnancies are taken to their terms, are those righteous people that wanted the births going to pay for the nappies, the food, the schooling, the clothes, the general care, the college years... etcaetera? And I know a number of people who would be elated to have this choice... My -personal- problem with abortion is that persons are using it as "birth control" rather than practicing some amount of personal responsibility and choosing one of the other forms of birth control. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. Medically necessary, mother-in-danger, rape cases, I don't like it, but I understand the need. And of course, the next question that always follows is...what if it was your daughter? Should I ever have the pleasure of having a daughter, I would hope that she would have the trust and faith in me to discuss it and to understand that I would rather raise a grandchild on my own than see my daughter choose abortion. Ultimately, however, it would still be her "choice".

kittinSol -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 9:45:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Your concise economic argumentation also leads me to this wholly (holy!) mercantile point: if all the accidental pregnancies are taken to their terms, are those righteous people that wanted the births going to pay for the nappies, the food, the schooling, the clothes, the general care, the college years... etcaetera? If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. What exactly do you mean by 'crime' ? "If you don't like the crime, pay the dime."

winterlight -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 9:49:34 AM)
Picture this.. You have two littleones at home. You are pregnant again and in a catholic hospital. Something is wrong with your uterus (u don't know that at the time) u desperately want more children. The hospital will not perform an abortion even THOUGH The Baby is DEAD INSIDE OF YOU. They were willing to let two girls not have a mother. Thank god the Dr. got her out of there. He delivered the dead baby and the mother survives. For some reasons i am reluctantly for abortion. If i had become pregnant (it would have killed me but i would have given my baby up for adoption). Everybody has the right to choose what their Conscience dictates to them. What scares me are these kids that have sex get pregnant (yes it's is both of their fault), and throw the baby away after birth. What kind of generation is this? More and more states allow dropping the kid off at a fire station, hospital.. There are more choices than ever before but let's just throw it away. What happened to respecting life and people. The quality of life in many ways has gone downhill..Sad to say....

Satyr6406 -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 9:53:14 AM)
"Right to Life" = "Fascist" "Pro-Choice" = "for Murder of innocents" Having said that, I believe abortion should always be legal because I don't want ladies dying in back allies but, the laws, as they exist today, are grossly unfair. Let me give you a couple of scenarios: I meet a young lady in a bar and we hit it off and decide to have a "meaningful overnight relationship". I tell the young lady, very plainly that I am not looking to be a father. She agrees and says that she is not looking to be a mother. We take all precautions we can and yet, a life is conceived. Whether she intended to "trap me" or, whether being pregnant actually changed her mind, she decides to have the child. I have absolutely no input in the decision; NONE. Under most states' current laws. I have no say and that young lady can take up to 60% of my income for "child support". This child support continues until the age of 18 or until the child graduates (and that could include a PhD). Okay. That's "living up to one's responsibility" but, I remind you: I had no CHOICE, what-so-ever! Scenario 2: I meet a young lady in a bar and we hit it off and decide to have a "meaningful overnight relationship". I tell the young lady, very plainly that I am not looking to be a father. She agrees and says that she is not looking to be a mother. We take all precautions we can and yet, a life is conceived. I don't want to die with infanticide on my soul so, I tell the young lady that I want to raise the child. She decides to have an abortion. Once again, I have NO SAY in the issue. Here's the rub: Where's her responsibility? Shouldn't she have to give birth to that life because I, the father, want to raise and nurture that child? Isn't that her "living up to her responsibilities"? It took two people to make that baby. Unfortunately, the way the laws are constituted, men have no rights at all. NONE! I think the laws need to change and, whenever ONE parent wants that child alive, the law should impose that outcome. We should always err on the side of life; NOT death. Peace and comfort Michael

mistoferin -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 9:56:06 AM)
FR~ Instead of ramming scissors into the brains of partially born fetuses that would be viable on their own, why don't we just wait the extra few minutes until they are fully born and then we could just drown them like some people do with puppies? That way this procedure wouldn't have to be part of the whole abortion debate. http://www.abortionfacts.com/literature/literature_9313pb.asp

Grlwithboy -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 9:58:06 AM)
Legislating medical decisions between a patient and an MD is a camel's nose under a very scary tent.

imthatacheyouhav -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 10:01:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Personally, I would not mind seeing the majority of abortions made illegal. I doubt that is going to happen. AGREED!!!!!!...can we STOP killing our babies......

subfemale27 -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 10:10:42 AM)
i myself do not believe in abortion, but to each his own. i personally feel that it is wrong to have an abortion where the fetus is so large that they would have to 'crush' the child's skull to remove it, that is what i would consider murder! i do feel that birth control/adoption would be a better option than to take the life of a child...

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 10:14:14 AM)
I agree with what kittinSol said in her first post in this thread. I think those in disagreement with her views are crackers and don't know how to mind their own business. These same people will LITERALLY flip out if the govt tries to do something like ban cigarettes, require motorcycle helmets, ban trans fat, place an excise tax on unhealthy goods. Some of these laws get my support, others do not - mainly I support the laws where the critical factor is respect for everyone's rights in the same spaces. "One should not behave toward others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself." If you want to be left alone, please learn how to leave others alone. I don't for one minute think that zygotes, fetuses, some collection of cells, or what have you have any substantive rights that supersede those of the person that represents the host body. Someday we will be able to clone human beings from a sample of their cells. Does that mean that every time I clip my toe nails I am committing murder against the tissues of my body that I am cutting off? I think not. Some of you have to get a grip. Do you waste your eggs every time you have a period? Those eggs could have been babies. Where are your morals now? Do you jerk off and let all of that sperm just die off without achieving its maximum potential to become a human beings? Where are your morals now? Do these questions sound ridiculous to you? And to me also.

kittinSol -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 10:19:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfemale27 i myself do not believe in abortion, but to each his own. i personally feel that it is wrong to have an abortion where the fetus is so large that they would have to 'crush' the child's skull to remove it, that is what i would consider murder! i do feel that birth control/adoption would be a better option than to take the life of a child... Hmmm... here's what happens to a large majority of women who need abortion (and I was one of them): their contraception fails them. It's not 100% secure. Additionally, I have to tell you that women don't tend to use termination as a contraceptive measure: it's far, far too expensive and dangerous that way, and it's a fallacy to think we do. Thank you, however, for sticking to your beliefs whilst acknowledgeing our rights. It truly is much appreciated :-)

kittinSol -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 10:23:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Satyr6406 "Right to Life" = "Fascist" "Pro-Choice" = "for Murder of innocents" Having said that, I believe abortion should always be legal because I don't want ladies dying in back allies but, the laws, as they exist today, are grossly unfair. Let me give you a couple of scenarios: I meet a young lady in a bar and we hit it off and decide to have a "meaningful overnight relationship". I tell the young lady, very plainly that I am not looking to be a father. She agrees and says that she is not looking to be a mother. We take all precautions we can and yet, a life is conceived. Whether she intended to "trap me" or, whether being pregnant actually changed her mind, she decides to have the child. I have absolutely no input in the decision; NONE. Under most states' current laws. I have no say and that young lady can take up to 60% of my income for "child support". This child support continues until the age of 18 or until the child graduates (and that could include a PhD). Okay. That's "living up to one's responsibility" but, I remind you: I had no CHOICE, what-so-ever! Scenario 2: I meet a young lady in a bar and we hit it off and decide to have a "meaningful overnight relationship". I tell the young lady, very plainly that I am not looking to be a father. She agrees and says that she is not looking to be a mother. We take all precautions we can and yet, a life is conceived. I don't want to die with infanticide on my soul so, I tell the young lady that I want to raise the child. She decides to have an abortion. Once again, I have NO SAY in the issue. Here's the rub: Where's her responsibility? Shouldn't she have to give birth to that life because I, the father, want to raise and nurture that child? Isn't that her "living up to her responsibilities"? It took two people to make that baby. Unfortunately, the way the laws are constituted, men have no rights at all. NONE! I think the laws need to change and, whenever ONE parent wants that child alive, the law should impose that outcome. We should always err on the side of life; NOT death. Peace and comfort Michael Michael, the Christian philosophs will tell you that you did have a choice. Nobody forced you to fuck about on a one-night stand and that besides sex is a crime [:(]. And you could have taken matters into your own hands and used prophylactics. But once again: it's besides the point.

slaveluci -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 10:28:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro I think those in disagreement with her views are crackers and don't know how to mind their own business. Main Entry: crack·er [image]http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif[/image] Pronunciation: 'kra-k&r Function: noun 5 a usually disparaging : a poor usually Southern white WTF? Your post raised some interesting points but they were kind of lost on me since you started out making such a misguided, racist statement[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m22.gif[/image]. Couldn't you have made the same points without throwing in a word like "cracker?" Imagine if you had used the dreaded "N" word instead. Let's see: "I think those in disagreement with her views are ni**ers and don't know how to mind their own business." Yep....one's as ignorant and disgusting as the other. Please don't use racist language like this just because someone disagrees with you or someone whose opinion you agree with. Just because the racist term is against us Caucasians doesn't make it any more acceptable to use. Thank you...........slave luci

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/16/2007 10:29:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Hmmm... here's what happens to a large majority of women who need abortion (and I was one of them): their contraception fails them. It's not 100% secure. A Plan B is good. I also like to have a Plan C and D and E...etc. There will be no unwanted pregnancies in my household. Absolutely not. quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Thank you, however, for sticking to your beliefs whilst acknowledgeing our rights. It truly is much appreciated :-) Yeah, it's great when people choose for themselves and allow others to choose for themselves also. Respect.

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