RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands

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ladychatterley -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/17/2007 9:07:29 PM)
This is bizarre--he really has never read the boards before (although he knew I posted under this name originally, then under a new name he gave me while we were together). It feels like some bizarre 'very special' espisode of Friends or something. quote: ORIGINAL: Donnalee Another thing to think about: maybe you just were done with the relationship, and your gambling issues are separate. I don't think this is the case--maybe I'm fooling myself because it was my first relationship here and all that (there were certainly moments where we were both bored, but passing moments). We were wonderful friends and there seems enough reluctance on both our sides to end it to make that the case. The thing for me is this: It isn't the money--he has never lied about money or taken money from me or not had his half of the rent. It is somewhat the time--working full time and then "working" at the casino for about 40 hours a week lives precious little time. But even more important, it is about the energy created. There have been times when he left me in the middle of a date to play poker. There have been times when it is very clear he'd rather play poker then go to a movie with me, etc. I used to avoid planning things in one part of town because if we were within 10 blocks of his poker club, he'd want to go. Then they opened a second branch. And poker creates this clutching, stuck, demanding, deadening energy. After a weekend of 'fun' at the casino, he isn't joyful. If he's up, he's proud, but not joyful. Sometimes, especially when the issue is framed as one about his time (which is a secondary issue) and my underlying fears about the future, it makes intellectual sense that we should be able to make this work. But I can't get over the fact that I feel like it is killing the part of him that thrives in the joy of the present moment (yeah, that sounds really cheesy, but it is true) and I don't believe it is healthy--it feels like the casinos are the same as the pro-anorexia websites.

WildThought -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 2:26:39 AM)
Good luck PokerDom! I am a poker player and some time you have to follow your dreams.

AquaticSub -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 9:58:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordVelvet PokerDom, Calling a spade a spade yes you are an addict. I have through My own addictions, and 12-Steps, and life. I can see it "written" all over you. This is not an attack. I am just pointing out that as one I see lots of the same things in you, from what you have shared. The question was also asked if going to GA would end Lifestyle. The answer is, for Me, no. Most of the kinky, Lifestyle people I know I met in the rooms over twelve years ago. I wish you well and hope that your "bottom" doesn't leave you completely alone as it does so many. LordVelvet How can you possibly say that without knowing him? Just like ritalin gets overprescribed, is everyone an addict today? It is possible to just enjoy gambling without it being an addiction. I know a wonderful semi-professional poker player who flies to Vegas several times a year. The casinos love him, get him lots of perks. He also had a very successful career, and a great family. Gambling at a professional level does not automatically equal addiction.

AAkasha -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 10:38:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: LordVelvet PokerDom, Calling a spade a spade yes you are an addict. I have through My own addictions, and 12-Steps, and life. I can see it "written" all over you. This is not an attack. I am just pointing out that as one I see lots of the same things in you, from what you have shared. The question was also asked if going to GA would end Lifestyle. The answer is, for Me, no. Most of the kinky, Lifestyle people I know I met in the rooms over twelve years ago. I wish you well and hope that your "bottom" doesn't leave you completely alone as it does so many. LordVelvet How can you possibly say that without knowing him? Just like ritalin gets overprescribed, is everyone an addict today? It is possible to just enjoy gambling without it being an addiction. I know a wonderful semi-professional poker player who flies to Vegas several times a year. The casinos love him, get him lots of perks. He also had a very successful career, and a great family. Gambling at a professional level does not automatically equal addiction. Regardless of what label people want to give it, it's obviously not working. You can compare this to someone who is an entrepenuer and wants to devote all his time and energy to starting his business, and his girlfriend must take a back seat. A couple must make decisions and figure out where they can compromise so the needs of both are met. Otherwise, they need to part ways. Carrying on with resentment and anger just intensifies the problems. It could be a classic case of "not ready for a relationship" or a learning experience for both. Akasha

KatyLied -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 11:24:09 AM)
quote: There have been times when he left me in the middle of a date to play poker. There have been times when it is very clear he'd rather play poker then go to a movie with me, etc. Here's your sign.

PokerDomResponds -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 11:47:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: LordVelvet PokerDom, Calling a spade a spade yes you are an addict. I have through My own addictions, and 12-Steps, and life. I can see it "written" all over you. This is not an attack. I am just pointing out that as one I see lots of the same things in you, from what you have shared. The question was also asked if going to GA would end Lifestyle. The answer is, for Me, no. Most of the kinky, Lifestyle people I know I met in the rooms over twelve years ago. I wish you well and hope that your "bottom" doesn't leave you completely alone as it does so many. LordVelvet How can you possibly say that without knowing him? Just like ritalin gets overprescribed, is everyone an addict today? It is possible to just enjoy gambling without it being an addiction. I know a wonderful semi-professional poker player who flies to Vegas several times a year. The casinos love him, get him lots of perks. He also had a very successful career, and a great family. Gambling at a professional level does not automatically equal addiction. I am the first to admit there are elements of addiction in my behaviour. Why, I typically can play 12-16 hours in a session. Starting at 8PM and going over to 12PM the next day. I think about poker all the time. In fact, that was one of the reasons that I decided to go to Atlantic City on the weekends was to NOT PLAY during the week. This way I can still be responsible and keep my full time job while I evaluate whether being a poker professional is something I even want. As of right now, I am not sure. There are positives and negatives. The negatives are many of the things that LadyChatterly discusses including negative energy around the"poker lifestyle". Part of being a dominant for me is to blaze my own lifes trail and find a special someone to go along with for the ride at my side as my sub/slave/property. I am paying the Rent. I am paying a substantial amount of monthly child support and alimony (a little over $4,000 a month). I am also keeping my full time job. The fact is I do not know of one professional poker player who does not show some signs of addiction. How can we not? The brain chemistry of gambling causes dopamine to shoot through the brain. THe same brain chemical that is produced from cocaine and sex. At this point if I am addicted, I am choosing to mamage it. At this point this is what I want for my career and this is how I decided to try to achieve it. Someone wrote the following to me privately: thought I woiuld included it. quote: Hello, I just wanted to say good luck. I am a poker player (female, sub) of two years standing now. I'm lucky in the sense that my Dominant doesn't feel that my enjoyment or whatever of poker is something that should be sending me to GA or anything. I'm not looking to play for my whole living though. Maybe I'll see you in the wsop next year! More about poker players and addiction - here is the lates entry from Phil Helmuth's blog. He is the most successful poker player on the planet and has won his eleventh(record-setting) World Series of Poker Bracelet. quote: The accident seems like a wakeup call. I mean I was driving too fast, I was out of control, I was pushing the limits, I wasn't wearing a seatbelt, and I didn't even have a helmet on!! I will be careful around cars, in cars, and with cars, the rest of my life. The bigger metaphor is this: I'm a bit out of control myself. What with Chinese poker, my ego, and my life in general. In Chinese poker, I will try to play less hours, and for lower stakes (no more $100,000 nights, never mind $500,000 nights!). As to my ego, what can I really do? A lot, actually. My wife and kids really normalize me, and that's who I need to be with exclusively for awhile. Finally, I should cut back my hours a bit, and focus on family. We do have a two week long Wisconsin trip planned in Late July. I mean here is the best poker player on the planet who struggles with the life balance of relationships and vocation. OK, I am done for now. Thank You to everyone for your writing, both supportive and not. I really do listen and try to learn from everyone I encounter.

LordVelvet -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 1:01:30 PM)
Aquaticsub, I can say it because I have been there. I don't pretend to understand things I couldn't understand such as "cramps", birth of a child, etc...I will tell people how I see it especially if I have been there. It is easy to justify yourself when things outwardly seem ok, as PokerDom say he pays the bills, child support and alimony. That doesn't mean he isnt an addict. It means he is a functioning addict. He has lost someone that loves him and he loves because once he starts he can't stop. I play poker maybe twice or three times a year I doesn't hurt people when I do this. It doesn't hurt Me when I do this. I struggled with the am I an addict or not thing for a few years. I met a guy, who was in the program and he said " I'll make this easy for you, you're an addict" I was only trying to point out that at the very least he has some issues that need to be taken care of, IMO. To each their own. LordVelvet

AquaticSub -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 2:41:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordVelvet Aquaticsub, I can say it because I have been there. I don't pretend to understand things I couldn't understand such as "cramps", birth of a child, etc...I will tell people how I see it especially if I have been there. It is easy to justify yourself when things outwardly seem ok, as PokerDom say he pays the bills, child support and alimony. That doesn't mean he isnt an addict. It means he is a functioning addict. He has lost someone that loves him and he loves because once he starts he can't stop. I play poker maybe twice or three times a year I doesn't hurt people when I do this. It doesn't hurt Me when I do this. I struggled with the am I an addict or not thing for a few years. I met a guy, who was in the program and he said " I'll make this easy for you, you're an addict" I was only trying to point out that at the very least he has some issues that need to be taken care of, IMO. To each their own. LordVelvet Wow. So someone who gambles once or twice a year and doesn't hurt anyone is an addict. That makes just about everyone addicted to everything. So he lost one person. That does not an addiction make. What would make it an addiction is if he was, repeatedly, unable to form healthy relationships. And frankly, you don't have to be an addict to fail at forming healthy relationships. I wouldn't be with someone who doesn't want me to read books. I spend several hundred dollars on books a year and I read them a lot. I wouldn't be with someone who doesn't let me play video games. Again, a few hundred dollars a year and I play them a lot. I have dumped people who loved me because they wouldn't let me indulge my interests. Frankly, if this is what defines addiction (the losing of one person because you wouldn't stop doing something), then I'm addicted to a whole lot other then sex, including beer, games, liquor, books, Ren Fairs, sewing, the forums, good BBQ and the other things I wouldn't give up for someone. If losing one person because they didn't want you spending as much time on an interest while you continued to maintain a decent job, a roof over your head, food in your mouth, paying bills (awesome that you are up to date in your child support by the way, OP! A lot of men aren't manly enough to do that), and maintaining healthy relationships with friends... then I am going on record as saying "Most addictions don't need to be treated at all". Bottom line: We don't know enough about this person to tell if they are an addict by one relationship failing.

Donnalee -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 4:18:00 PM)
quote: Wow. So someone who gambles once or twice a year and doesn't hurt anyone is an addict. That makes just about everyone addicted to everything. I think Velvet said earlier that he has dealt with his own addictions, but I'm guessing not a gambling addiction. Gambling twice a year wouldn't make anyone an addict.

ladychatterley -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 6:27:10 PM)
My perception of this issue is very different. If, Aquatic Sub, you were saying I have to play video games for these 45 hours a week because these are when the best hours are--I'll take off your birthday, but that's about it" and you gave up your love of videogames, and called (several times) saying you needed to quit and admitted it wasn't fun while you were doing it, but all you really wanted was more and only had friends who did it and couldn't think about anything other than video games when you weren't playing, if it became the single most important factor of your life and your identity, then I think you would really have a problem. IMO, you are trivializing this issue. This isn't about once or twice a year, or even once or twice a week. It is about 3-4 days a week for 18-20 hours a day. I joke that I'm addicted to Carmex and The Daily Show and all sorts of things, but they don't define my life and they don't limit it. They don't deaden my energy and take up all my mental real estate. Of course, I wish him all the best--and I hope and pray that he finds joy and vitality in his life. I wish there was a way I would be a part of that.

chellekitty -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 7:01:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Donnalee quote: Wow. So someone who gambles once or twice a year and doesn't hurt anyone is an addict. That makes just about everyone addicted to everything. I think Velvet said earlier that he has dealt with his own addictions, but I'm guessing not a gambling addiction. Gambling twice a year wouldn't make anyone an addict. unless each time you gamble you spend all your money and take out loans to continue or something along those lines... there was a story that a counselor used to tell...sounds kind of like a boogey man story but it made an impact on me....if the first time a person ever drinks, he gets a dui, and then the second time he ever drinks, he gets in an accident where his arm has to be removed and the third time he ever drinks he kills his wife...is he not an addict because he only put alcohol in his system on 3 occassions....?

chellekitty -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 7:03:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ladychatterley I joke that I'm addicted to Carmex who cannot love lipcrack..or is that lip no-crack

AquaticSub -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 7:09:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ladychatterley My perception of this issue is very different. If, Aquatic Sub, you were saying I have to play video games for these 45 hours a week because these are when the best hours are--I'll take off your birthday, but that's about it" I'm sorry but if he is practicing to be a professional, yes that would make sense. Poker is a game of both skill and luck so you need to practice it if you want to make your living at it. That doesn't signal an addication (by itself), but that he needs someone who understands his desire to play poker professional and perhaps would enjoy playing poker with him. quote: and you gave up your love of videogames, and called (several times) saying you needed to quit and admitted it wasn't fun while you were doing it, but all you really wanted was more and only had friends who did it and couldn't think about anything other than video games when you weren't playing, if it became the single most important factor of your life and your identity, then I think you would really have a problem. Now those are signs of addiction. quote: IMO, you are trivializing this issue. This isn't about once or twice a year, or even once or twice a week. It is about 3-4 days a week for 18-20 hours a day. No, I'm not. What I'm pointing is something that society is doing that absolutely disgusts me: Trivializing addiction by saying "He does this a lot and I don't like it so he must be addicted and needs help!" or looking at the something that is not quite socially acceptable, like drinking or gambling, note that they are doing it more then us and saying it's an addiction. The information you are providing now does sound a lot more like an addiction, however the idea that the break-up of one relationship because of this signals an addiction by itself is absurd. That is all that I was trying to say. quote: I joke that I'm addicted to Carmex and The Daily Show and all sorts of things, but they don't define my life and they don't limit it. They don't deaden my energy and take up all my mental real estate. Of course, I wish him all the best--and I hope and pray that he finds joy and vitality in his life. I wish there was a way I would be a part of that. Again, what you have shared now changes the picture. I wish you the very best and hope that you understand what I was trying to point out. Perhaps in the future things will be better and you can be part of his life, but he has his own things to work out.

AquaticSub -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 7:12:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chellekitty quote: ORIGINAL: Donnalee quote: Wow. So someone who gambles once or twice a year and doesn't hurt anyone is an addict. That makes just about everyone addicted to everything. I think Velvet said earlier that he has dealt with his own addictions, but I'm guessing not a gambling addiction. Gambling twice a year wouldn't make anyone an addict. unless each time you gamble you spend all your money and take out loans to continue or something along those lines... there was a story that a counselor used to tell...sounds kind of like a boogey man story but it made an impact on me....if the first time a person ever drinks, he gets a dui, and then the second time he ever drinks, he gets in an accident where his arm has to be removed and the third time he ever drinks he kills his wife...is he not an addict because he only put alcohol in his system on 3 occassions....? This is true, but I don't think that it's fair to assume he does that unless we actually know.

PokerDomResponds -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 10:21:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ladychatterley IMO, you are trivializing this issue. This isn't about once or twice a year, or even once or twice a week. It is about 3-4 days a week for 18-20 hours a day. For the record, I do not play that long. All though I do put in a lot of hours. The reality is I probably avaerage about 12 hours a day. However, that can mean one day is 6 and another may be 18. Thank you very much AquaticSub for your support.

NefertariReborn -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 10:41:46 PM)
Ummmmmmmm still waiting for her to recognize her addiction to him!!! He's said so long, farewell, (the german word), goodnight....what next does he need to do? Pack her up and put her out???? Stop whining. He's trying to live his best life and follow his bliss. I say more power to You and thunderous kudos for having your alimony and child support up to date. If only for the last reasons I would say to Poker....go for it....live life like there's no tomorrow.

MzMia -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/18/2007 10:44:15 PM)
Often around here, I often wonder who is the victim and which one is the bottom/submissive in that relationship? The answer is often not pretty.

LordVelvet -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/19/2007 5:07:37 AM)
Aquatic, I agree that we don't know the whole story. I was simply saying how I view the situation based on what I have gone through in My life. I will agree to disagree with you. My opinion is if someone is doing anything for 18 hours a day it would be VERY hard to have a healthy relationship. Again these are My opinions. LordVelvet

ladychatterley -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/19/2007 5:15:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NefertariReborn Ummmmmmmm still waiting for her to recognize her addiction to him!!! He's said so long, farewell, (the german word), goodnight....what next does he need to do? Pack her up and put her out???? Stop whining. Things aren't always as simple as they might seem. The thread came up because he called twice saying he wanted to quit, and that made me reevaluate our situation. He may have said "so long, farewell" but he has said other things as well, like "couldn't we just..." "but..." "if we..." I am in the process of moving out. (We live in one of the most difficult real estate markets in the country--finding an apartment (which I've done), getting through the credit check and background check (which I've done), getting your letters of approval (which I've done) and getting interviewed by the people running the apartment (which is what I'm waiting for) all take time. It is true that the current apartment is in my name and I could just kick him out so he could find a sublet somewhere, but I'd rather deal with the messiness a few weeks longer. Maybe I just can't admit that I'm the problem, or topping from the bottom or not really submissive or what, but imo, we have been honest with each other, kind, and clear. I don't believe we will have underlying "what ifs" or underlying anger. In fact, this is the best break-up I think either of us have had. Maybe I've asked him to over-process things a little, but overall, we're kind to each other and trying to leave each other better off for having known each other.

KatyLied -> RE: Addiction and a Sub's Demands (7/19/2007 8:58:03 AM)
quote: Maybe I just can't admit that I'm the problem, or topping from the bottom or not really submissive Dealing with codependence and a partner with an addiction are life issues, not lifestyle issues. Wanting to have a peaceful life doesn't mean you are topping from the bottom or less submissive. It's obvious that he has certain priorities that are not aligned with yours.

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