RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (Full Version)

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Laure -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (7/17/2007 8:34:57 AM)

If I am not friends with someone, you can bet the whole farm I am not going to be intimate with them!!



littlesarbonn -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (7/17/2007 11:26:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Laure

If I am not friends with someone, you can bet the whole farm I am not going to be intimate with them!!


No offense actually intended, but your response is a throwaway line that actually doesn't address the actual point of the thread, other than to perpetuate the madness. And I think it's this fuzzy area of defining "friendship" that makes the state of "being friends" so frustrating to so many people, yet perfectly acceptable to so for many others.



Najakcharmer -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (7/17/2007 12:03:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obis

littlesarbonn is 100% correct. "Let's be friends" is a consolation prize women hand out when they don't find you attractive enough at that point, and accepting it shows that you are not the kind of man they ever want in their life romantically. I'm sure many women will disagree vehemently with this statement, but ask any guy who is very successful with women and he'll confirm it is completely true. It's just one of those games women play that many of them don't even realize they're playing.


I call bullshit on that.  All romantic/dating relationships for me *must* start with friendship, or they aren't happening.  I have zero interest in being intimate with anyone who I don't like and and enjoy spending time with as a friend.  A guy who just wants to jump right to sex or kinky play without bothering to get to know me as a person and figure out if we actually like each other is not a guy I want to waste any of my time on.

If I say "let's be friends", it's an invitation to get to know one another and spend some casual time together to see if we click.  If we enjoy one another's company and genuinely like one another in addition to being attracted sexually or romantically, dating, play, romance and sex can follow from there if there's mutual interest.

This is an excellent filter for me, because guys that automatically run the other way when a woman sincerely offers friendship make rotten friends and even worse partners.  Guys that are willing to start as genuine friends and move on to become sexual or romantic partners are MUCH better relationship material, and the friendship tends to endure even when the romance goes through rocky stretches, or even if it dies down altogether. Those are the kinds of people I want in my life, so I'm keeping the "friends first" filter as a firm policy. 



littlesarbonn -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (7/17/2007 12:18:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer


This is an excellent filter for me, because guys that automatically run the other way when a woman sincerely offers friendship make rotten friends and even worse partners.  Guys that are willing to start as genuine friends and move on to become sexual or romantic partners are MUCH better relationship material, and the friendship tends to endure even when the romance goes through rocky stretches, or even if it dies down altogether. Those are the kinds of people I want in my life, so I'm keeping the "friends first" filter as a firm policy. 



I don't mean this to be disrespectful in any way, but I think as a woman you are missing what is the core of the actual problem. I don't think ANY guy has a problem with a "friends first" filter as a policy. The problem isn't that at all. Where the problem emerges is that "friends ONLY" has become the filter that a lot of women use, and they don't define it, nor do they respond when asked for further clarification, because leaving it vague serves a purpose for them, especially if they're only interested in "remaining friends." No one really wants to touch this animal because it's a very sensitive topic that people don't want to deal with.

So, we are usually offered planned vagueness instead. If I'm interested in a woman in a romantic way, if being told "friends only" is the ONLY way it's going to be, I'm probably going to move on. My friendships develop because I chose to pursue friendships, not because it's the consolation prize from a woman that was really not interested in me. That's what it boils down to. In SO MANY of these cases, you end up with a doting "friend" who believes he has a chance of more than friendship, but the other "friend" never comes out and blatantly says: "You will never be anything but JUST a friend to me." There's a reason this subject becomes such fodder for young adult movies about romance. ONLY in movies does something more than friendship ever emerge. In real life it happens once in a blue moon, but enough to convince foolish people that it can happen to them, like winning the lottery.

This is not some kind of Montel Williams's brother rant (he believes men and women are incapable of being friends). I have female friends who I have no intentions of EVER pursuing romantically, and they feel the same way about me as well. That's fine. We developed as friends because we were in proximity to each other, had a lot of the same similar interests, and all was fine. If one of us would have pursued the other romantically, we probably would not have become the friends we are today.

Again, I mention ambiguity is the poster child for why this happens so many times. It's why I'm upfront and don't even want to deal with it. I hold my friendships to be very, very significant to me. Like it was said earlier, people here are mistaking "friendship" for "acquaintance" and trying to hold their own with that designation. In reality, when someone says, "I only see you as a friend" and you have little actual intercourse (the intellectual kind) with that other person, you are an acquaintance, not a friend. It's that ambiguity and that desire to use the word "friend" that turns that acquaintance into a confused entity.



MissIsis -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (7/17/2007 12:34:37 PM)

There are men that I truely want to maintain friendships with.   I choose my friends carefully, & they are each special to me.  I will say, I really hate being put on the spot, when it is obvious someone who I have become (in my opinion) friends with, tell me that want more.  Most often, though, the friendship has already been established, & I want to keep it that way.

For me, I don't want the people I have been in serious relationships with, anywhere near me, not as lovers, friends, or even aquaintances if I can help it.  So, when I have a good friend, that tells me he wants more, & I don't, that doesn't mean I don't value the friendship.  Believe it or not, I value the friendship I have formed with that person, & I really don't want to do anything to risk losing that person as my friend. 

There are times, too, that as I have become friends with someone, there are things about them that I find unattractive.  Now mind you, these are people with whom our relationships started as a friendship, not with the idea of a romantic relationship.  Sometimes, it is as a physical thing that doesn't trip my trigger.  Who wants to hurt someone by telling them they are too skinny for you to want to fuck them?  Or by saying something worse. 

My romantic relationships are generally not based on looks, but there are things I do find attractive in them.  Sometimes, it is just an ability to cook, or something that is endearing to me in some way. 

Sometimes, as I begin to know them, I watch their relationships with others.  I know one Dominant who is a very dear friend of mine.  I have always steered our conversations around to something different when I sense him starting to talk about us getting together.  I love playing with him, & with his romantic partners.  I genuinely like the man.  However, when during our conversations, he would tell me how he thought a particuliar submissive he was getting close to, would not have sex with him without a condom, until he was tested for  diseases, was her topping from the bottom, it was a definitive turn off to me. When I mentioned  to him during our conversation that her request was for both of them to be tested, & it would protect them both, his answer was that if he got sick & died from a STD, he had lived a good life & it didn't matter.  If he died, he said he died.  Maybe, I told him, it mattered to her that she take every precaution, so she could live.  There was no talking to him about it.  Of course, he continued to believe that she was topping him from the bottom, & trying to control him by insisting on STD tests.  If I remember correctly, his resentment showed & the relationship was gone before the test results were ever received. 

I would never tell the man that was the reason I didn't want to be intimate with him.  Just like I would never tell someone if there is a particuliar physical thing about them that I wasn't attracted to. 

I guess what I am trying to ask, is that, in reference to the original post here, why is it, that one can't have a friendship with someone when the other person isn't attracted to them romantically?  Is there really anything so wrong with wanting friendship, instead of intimacy? 







domiguy -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (7/17/2007 1:23:44 PM)

Here is the deal.....First off this has nothing to do with finding friends....If it happens do your fucking happy dance....I found a friend!!! Yippeee!!!

Since I am a Dom I cannot begin to know what it is like wading through this shit through the eyes of a sub male.....From what I see I think it would suck!!! 

I digress, SirDominic made a post that resonates with me...But I don't think is applicable to that of a sub's mentality. I have little problem with meeting and I rarely feel out of my element and things go usually the way that I perceive that they will.  But I am the one in control....I can't begin to control if a woman will find me attractive or enjoy my soft spoken personality....But in most cases I have found that I'm more likely to be the one to determine if things are going to proceed or not.

Like most people out here....I tend to engage in a sexual relationship without establishing the tremendous connection of a friendship....And if you disagree...trust me you are in the minority...And although your opinions are not baseless they will simply not forward the conversation.  The friendship and love come later or the relationship will die due to a lack of momentum as time will prove there is not enough of a connection to propel the two of you forward.

Here is the deal....There are way too many dudes out here compared to women....Then when you add in to the equation your own personal preferences, if you have any...The odds become even worse.  So if you can't separate yourself from the masses...You are truly screwed.  To be a male sub in this jungleworld of bdsm internet dating would really blow....Many female subs (some I would consider friends...lol) have mentioned that they routinely get "hit on" by male subs just hoping the chance to serve anyone regardless of whether the woman is inclined to be a Dom or not...."Please let me come over to clean your place fuck me in th ass with a dildo...And let me eat your pussy or rub your back."....At least one sub, that I know, has taken them up on their offer....Her account of what happened was rather hysterical.

But if you can't tell I am unable to address the problem that littlesarbonn and the op are addressing just because it comes from the wrong side of the fence....I know that you are not looking for friends....I know that if a women mentions the "let's be friends" sentence it is comparable to a blow off because it is not what you seek. It sounds that you  are not in search of something casual but a relationship which might be even causing more problems.

I think you are battling a serious uphill battle.....I believe that the problem could be you or just the nature of the beast that times have changed and when you strip away all of the Pro's (dommes) and the young wannabe women there may not be many Dom women actually left that meet your standards or are even available to meet your needs.

If it really means a lot to you this is where you probably are going to have to step out and attend some public function...But even there I think the odds might stack up against you....Tough sailing for you little subbie dudes...Wish I could offer some sort of advice that might help....But I think that many of the dommes out here just aren't going to meet up to your expectations.





MySweetSubmssive -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (7/17/2007 5:44:43 PM)

Interesting thread. 

No, women do not use that phrase simply to screw with a man's head.  The alternative "let's be friends" is telling someone you aren't interested in them (and I don't know about other women, but I'd feel VERY uncomfortable turning someone down that way face to face), and THEN he keeps asking you why (as if you're going to change your mind).  More uncomfortableness, escalation, he gets defensive/angry/verbally shitheaded, and you're sorry you went out on a limb and said what you were really thinking.  Men are trained in our culture to pursue.  When I've figured out I don't like someone, the last thing I want is to be pursued more.  I don't like giving a "no thanks" to a nice person any more than the other person wants to hear it.  I hate that feeling.

If you are consistently getting the "friends" line, I would kindly suggest looking at yourself (you are the common denominator in this situation).  Are you going for the wrong kind of woman?  Do you have some kind of pattern that gets in the way of getting what you want?  Are you, maybe, lacking in a social skill set?  Someone said that women like men who are a combination of kind/considerate/sweet and challenging.  And to a certain extent, I'll second that.  I like someone who is "nice," but who I have sparks with.  No spark=no romance.  I am not aiming this at you in particular, just throwing it out there. 

When you've done that, talk to your bluntest woman friend or the most direct woman that said she wanted to be "friends" and see if she would be willing to give you some idea of why you weren't compatible.  But if you do this, remember that it is going out on a limb for her as well as you.  Set the stage for her to feel comfortable saying potentially negative things.  And if she says anything, just listen.  Because if you try to "respond," you will probably stop the flow of information.  I'm just projecting how I would respond.  Of course, all women are different.

MSS



clem831 -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (7/17/2007 5:54:05 PM)

Okay, here's a question. What if it's the other way around? What if the woman is the one that wants to know whether or not the man is simply looking for friendship or if there is a possibility of more? Guys aren't always that easy to read, either.



Lordandmaster -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (7/17/2007 6:10:50 PM)

I understand what you're saying and assume most women probably view the whole "let's be friends" thing in more or less the same way.  But one thing you have to keep in mind is that it's difficult, and in many cases impossible, to maintain a friendship with someone who really wants something else in addition to the friendship you're offering.  The novel Vanity Fair contains a great example of a relationship between two people who agree to remain "friends," even though one of them wants to marry the other, which becomes disastrous for both of them.

I sense that some women think of "Let's be friends" as a friendly way of saying "I'm not interested in you sexually, but I'll allow you to hang around since I enjoy your company."  A more straightforward "I'm not interested in you sexually" is surely clearer and possibly kinder in the long run.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissIsis

There are men that I truely want to maintain friendships with.   I choose my friends carefully, & they are each special to me.  I will say, I really hate being put on the spot, when it is obvious someone who I have become (in my opinion) friends with, tell me that want more.  Most often, though, the friendship has already been established, & I want to keep it that way.



playfulotter -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' -so true (7/17/2007 6:19:32 PM)

i am in a relationship now and kind of seeking friends but it seems weird in a way for me after looking for two years after my last Master.....My Master knows he is the "One" i am all there for  but we all like to exchange ideas with others and so i am looking for friends in that way...and who doesn't like to flirt!

rhonda[;)]



Laure -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (7/19/2007 8:00:19 AM)

My response might well be a throwaway - and my definition of friendship as well.  I know my definition is going to differ from someone else's.

But the fact remains - if I do not like someone, being with them, talking to them, etc., then I will probably never progress into any sort of relationship with them.  Life is too short to waste time with someone who makes my teeth grind.  Of course, I wouldn't offer a "let's be friends" line to anyone I wasn't genuinely interested in, but I am odd like that.  I very seldom make polite mouth noises.

Now, with someone I trust, enjoy their company, all of the good things - sure, a friendship is possible.  Intimacy is possible, emotional or physical.  I choose to look at friendship as a starting point rather than a terminus.   



AquaticSub -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (7/19/2007 9:16:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Laure

My response might well be a throwaway - and my definition of friendship as well.  I know my definition is going to differ from someone else's.

But the fact remains - if I do not like someone, being with them, talking to them, etc., then I will probably never progress into any sort of relationship with them.  Life is too short to waste time with someone who makes my teeth grind.  Of course, I wouldn't offer a "let's be friends" line to anyone I wasn't genuinely interested in, but I am odd like that.  I very seldom make polite mouth noises.

Now, with someone I trust, enjoy their company, all of the good things - sure, a friendship is possible.  Intimacy is possible, emotional or physical.  I choose to look at friendship as a starting point rather than a terminus.   


Except that again, the OP doesn't seem complaining about being friends first. More that they are complaining about the getting "I don't want to more then friends with you - ever" talk.



pollux -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (7/19/2007 11:27:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

There's always the opposite way to go.

'You're either in my life in a relationship sense, or you're not in my life at all.'  You're a busy person, right?  Who has time for all these 'friends'?

<shudders at the thought>

Jeff


What some people mean when they say "let's be friends" is "can we part on good terms and you not get all despondent and hurt and resentful or angry because I need out?".  It doesn't necessarily mean that the person really wants to be friends.

Because:

Being friends is work.  Being friends takes energy and time and commitment.  Friends call each other and check in on each other and have each other's back and do favors for each other.  If you're going to be real friends it's not really a lot different from being involved romantically (except sometimes the sex isn't there).

The last time this happened to me, I suspected that real friendship wasn't in the picture, so I said, "No, actually, we can't be friends.  I think we can part amicably, but I don't really have room in my life for a 'friend' who really isn't interested in me.  I have plenty of friends who are, and they need my time and attention. So...thanks, but no thanks."

She was pretty pissed, which told me that she just wanted a get-out-of-the-relationship-free card, and wasn't in the category of people who really want to be friends.

Edit: "some people", not "most people".



ElectraGlide -> RE: 'Dreaded Friends Category' (7/20/2007 12:28:51 AM)

Saint, i am not a submissive, but if you get told up front at the start of a relationship the friends speech, that is good. If you get the you are like a brother or just like a friend speech after a year or more of intimate activity that sucks. I had the brother and friend speech twice in my life once in a 1 year relationship with a bottom and once with a non S & M submissive after 5 years. If they wanted to be friends up front, that would have worked, I would have not wasted investing all my spare time in them. I could have been friends with them, just on a different level, and much less frequent.
The you are like a brother or friend to me speech, is called the nice guy breakup speech several ladies have told me. If you get it up front you know where you stand, and you can choose to have them as a friend, while you seek out your lover.



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