RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (Full Version)

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Termyn8or -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 7:58:32 AM)

Later, I will revisit the thimerosal issue. I will present the article on my FTP and then you draw your own conclusions. Their two facts are a powerful indictment, but not proof. But the case studies refuting the claim are not a positive defense.

Unless one of us has a spare medical research facility laying around, we have to take their word for it. And if you think every published set of data are completely unbiased and accurate, think again. One can merely ask the right questions to prove their point when they hold the purse strings.

So, just for now to get off the thimerosal issue, what did this guy do ? He took blood without proper permission. Never mind that the government is allowed to do it but he is not. I mean I remember the bloodbank truck coming to the schools for donations. But the facts are still facts. Personally I think he did wrong.

Now to be on topic (for a change) let me ask for opinions. Do you think this should be a misdemeanor or a felony ? Elements : private study, blood, unable to contract by law, could concievably be considered injury breaking the skin.

I think to be fair, based on the guy's actual actions, that this would be a misdemeanor, but a high misdemeanor. I mean the kind with jail time like six months and thousands in fines. Of course I didn't say the max should automatically be imposed, but send the message DO NOT DO IT AGAIN.

I think if the guy believed he was doing right, and we might be talking a pinprick thing like diabetics do every day, I just can't see a felony. I mean you can do less time for a felony than a misdemeanor, but once a felon things change. Make the guy a convicted felon over this ? I think it needs careful consideration. I think we need more details.

I do agree that it was a crime, but just how severe ?

T




Alumbrado -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 8:10:59 AM)

quote:

original Termyn8or

Ask me for evidence and I shall comply


quote:

original Alumbrado

OK, I am asking you for evidence... not rumors, not unfounded claims, not whacko statements from some politician with a famous last name, but replicable evidence that autism is caused by vaccinations.


quote:

original Termyn8or

You called, now I raise. I won't give you site, but maybe some cites. But I am kicking ass and GIVING names...

...Now get this. I will have the names very soon, if you need them.

...I'll be back with some names, 


quote:

original Termyn8or

Later, I will revisit the thimerosal issue. I will present the article on my FTP and then you draw your own conclusions.

...So, just for now to get off the thimerosal issue, what did this guy do ? He took blood without proper permission. Never mind that the government is allowed to do it but he is not. I mean I remember the bloodbank truck coming to the schools for donations.


[sm=biggrin.gif]








RCdc -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 8:19:51 AM)

If this man did do what he is accused of, then yes, he should be charged with commiting a 'felony' as you stateside say -
 
Why do I think that?  Well, to me, what he did was no less than what a paedophile does.
 
Blood tests and urine samples are one thing -  but this man is alleged to have commited invasive and unnessesary procedures on children including lumber punctures and colonoscopies on children without informing parents and gaining permission.
 
He also allegedly tested a drug on a child purely for experimental reasons.
 
He then allegedly abused parents trust by paying children £5 to take blood samples whilst they were in his care at his childs birthday party.
 
So yes - he allegedly exploited children and abused them.  Tell me that isn't a felony.
 
Peace
the.dark.




RCdc -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 8:45:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Have any kids that weren't vaccinated died from one of the infections yet? The worthless SOB is trading gullible parent's children's lives against a chance to make a few fat consulting fees from parents suing the vaccine manufacturers over autism. Losing his medical license is the very least that should happen to him.


Sorry for missing your post Ken.
Yes, the first child to die from measles in 14 years - did so in 2006.
 
Peace
the.dark.




Termyn8or -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 9:03:48 AM)

Alum, I have to get to you later.

Darcy-

"Blood tests and urine samples are one thing -  but this man is alleged to have commited invasive and unnessesary procedures on children including lumber punctures and colonoscopies on children without informing parents and gaining permission.
 
He also allegedly tested a drug on a child purely for experimental reasons.
 
He then allegedly abused parents trust by paying children £5 to take blood samples whilst they were in his care at his childs birthday party. "

 
I was totally unaware it was this bad. Colonoscopies ? That is not a pinprick at the top of the finger. I may have to stand corrected here. I think I would consider that a felony.
 
By the way, what people might not understand about how I am, it is a crime, but my reasoning for it being a crime even to take a small sample of blood ? It is theft.
 
All you really own is your flesh and bone. Seems like blood is included.
 
Colonoscopies ? Just how young were these kids to agree to shit like that ? I mean if he kept doing it obviously nobody was running out the house screaming right ? I still am having trouble understanding how this happened. How is it these kids just got in line for this and,,,,,,, whatever ? Did he give them ice cream too or what ?
 
I just don't get it. Are the kids that vulnerable and stupid that not one of them thought "Ummm, this isn't quite what I had in mind going to a birthday party" ?. Just how young were they ? Damn.
 
I just don't get it.
 
T




DomKen -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 9:29:19 AM)

He's accused of performing lumbar punctures and colonoscopies on children, without parental/guardian consent, who were patients at a hospital where he had privileges.

dark,
Do you know if the child who died from measles hadn't received the MMR vaccine? If not do you know if the parents avoided because of this doctor's claims?




RCdc -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 9:30:12 AM)

I have no figures as to the ages of the children as yet, but it was listed that 11 children underwent such procedures.  To avoid confusion though, these were not the same children as at the party - that was a different incident he has been reported for (so that is obviously more than 11 children) - some of these were allegedly children of people he worked with and friends children - and also some of the children were under his 'care'(whatever that means) It is also unclear as yet if any of the parents understood that these procedures were invasive procedures and 'against the interests' of the children.  He was also not trained - nor had any qualifications to practice said procedures.
 
The drug test he allegedly tested on the single child was a measles vaccine which had no medical ethical status and he had no training to administer.
 
Peace
the.dark.




RCdc -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 9:41:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

He's accused of performing lumbar punctures and colonoscopies on children, without parental/guardian consent, who were patients at a hospital where he had privileges.

dark,
Do you know if the child who died from measles hadn't received the MMR vaccine? If not do you know if the parents avoided because of this doctor's claims?


From the reports I have seen that out of the 72 cases reported back at that time, only 2 of the children had received the first shot (there should be two) -
 
edit to add this -
 
quote:

It has been reported that a 13 year old boy died of Measles in England. The boy did not receive childhood vaccines as recommended. There are also reports of outbreaks of Measles in the UK, especially in the Doncaster area. This is a direct consequence of a fall in the uptake of MMR vaccine. In some parts of the UK the coverage has dropped to 75 – 85%; to control the spread of Measles at least 95% of the children in the eligible age groups need to be vaccinated.


Peace
the.dark.
 




philosophy -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 10:14:31 AM)

(FR)

.....there is another side to this story. Ok, concerns over the MMR vaccine were misguided, but once it became clear that a lot of people were avoiding it then the NHS really ought to have made single disease vaccines available. At least until the concerns had been debunked. By not doing so many children failed to receive their immunisations.




Alumbrado -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 10:25:11 AM)

The anti-vaxers I've had the displeasure of dealing with claimed that all vaccines were to be avoided, using 'concerns' such as 'you never know', 'there must be something to it', and 'better safe than sorry' to prop up the mercury/autusm scare tactics.

I doubt that the gummint could have done anything in the face of such superstitious worship of ignorance.




Casie -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 10:28:14 AM)

http://www.generationrescue.org/index.html


This website will give you infirmation about the connections of vaccination and autism




luckydog1 -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 10:33:20 AM)

No, Philosophy not a single child failed to recieve an imunization due to the Gov not giving creedence to the nonsense scare (with a profit motive).  Children did not get them due to parents refusing to get them.  In the UK does that require pulling the child from the school system, as it does in the USA?   IF you think the evil ...illuminatti/communists/facists/corparationswhoever they are,lots of choices.... are putting poison in the vaccines, you would not trust the single shot vaccine either.  And it is much harder to get people to come in for a series of shots than just one, and there would be errors in the series application, increasing the number of cases of disease and problems.  There are no empirical/medical concerns, there are just hype concerns based on sensational media and web sites.  All the concerns being debunked in un educated people is impossible.  People think the Earth is Flat, No holocost, No moon landing, ect.

It was a sick man lying to parents who had children suffering a horrible disease, for fun and profit, hooking up with media and political figures for power, publicity, and profit.  It was also a distraction from what ever is causing the increase in Autism Spectrum Disorders




RCdc -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 10:36:39 AM)

With all due respect Casie -  that website is a biased site.
 
I still prefere the old fashioned way.  Interact with a child with autism - then do so with a child who has had mumps, measles or a baby infected with rubella in the womb.  See which you would 'prefere' to risk.  Then talk to your friends and relatives and see what they did with their children.
 
If you are that concerned about the injections, have a child when you can afford the single injections privately.
 
Remembering as well that this is about the man who allegedly abused children... not the injections.  Fine, you can say you cannot seperate the two - but supporting his research when he clearly had no ethics, puts his research into question on it's own.
 
Peace
the.dark.




Alumbrado -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 11:10:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Casie

http://www.generationrescue.org/index.html


This website will give you infirmation about the connections of vaccination and autism



Specious information.




DomKen -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 11:10:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Casie

http://www.generationrescue.org/index.html


This website will give you infirmation about the connections of vaccination and autism


I didn't find any information on that website. I found assertions and unsourced claims but nothing useful.

As a matter of fact on the page claiming to refute the fact that Thimerosal is not linked to autism they repeatedly try and cover their ass by claiming if it isn't thimerosal it must be some other component of the vaccines doing the harm.

They use Wakefields discredited studies. They try and discredit epidemiology. There own study shows at best a minor difference in prevalence and they had to exclude one county from their results to achieve significant difference. IOW their own study found no significant link between autism and vaccinations.




Arpig -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 1:20:17 PM)

**Fast Reply**
Ok, this one touches close to home. I have an autistic child, and his autism appeared shortly after he recieved his MMR (yes the change in him was noticable). For my 3rd child my ex and I discussed it and decided against getting the MMR, just beause we were afraid there might be something to the claims. He recieved all his other vaccines. He did not develop autism.
I have no access to the research that we did at the time (10 years ago), and no desire to repeat it...it was pretty exhaustive, we read everything we could find on autism when our son was diagnosed, but one detail I do remember was a study that found colonies of non-virulent measles germs living in the intestines of autistic children. With a lot of patience and a very strict gluten & dairy free diet my son is doing well in school, he is going into grade 8 (on a special curriculum, of course).
My recollections of the research at the time was that there was likely a genetic predisposition towards certainautistic spectrum disorders, but that the triggers were unknown, and that the MMR may, in certain children act as a trigger. It is also my understanding that this view is now somewhat discredited.
To us the risks of measles or mumps or german maesles did not seem all that high, Remember folks when I grew up these were viewed as normal childhood diseases, and myself I have had measles and german measles severl times (different strains in different countries). My siblings also had measles, german measles, and mumps (I missed that one luckily...or not, I understand it is a real bitch as an adult...my father can attest to that). Given all that, we decided not to take the risk with our 3rd child...and so far there have been no unpleasant consequences.
Let me also point out that I never once considered sueing anybody, the doctors who administered the vaccines did so with the best intentions and to the best of their knowledge, and they used a vaccine that was determined to be safe by the organs of Gvt responsible for such things. I don't believe that the manufacturers, medical community, and the various Gvt bodies would deliberatly ignore facts simply to push an unsafe product.




DomKen -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 1:40:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I have no access to the research that we did at the time (10 years ago), and no desire to repeat it...it was pretty exhaustive, we read everything we could find on autism when our son was diagnosed, but one detail I do remember was a study that found colonies of non-virulent measles germs living in the intestines of autistic children.

That was Wakefields research. It is completely wrong. The Lancet has retracted the article.

What causes autism spectrum disorders is still unknown but a lot of things have been ruled out.

As to MMR and the 'sudden' appearance of autistic symptoms. That is a coincidence. Long before MMR existed it was recognized that autism symptoms often appeared at roughly 1 year which is when MMR is first administered.

As to the special diet if it works for you fine but there is no evidence that it is actually effective either.

Good luck.




RCdc -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 2:39:35 PM)

Hello Arpig
Thank you for being open about your experience.
 
In 2006 - US scientists did find measles virus in the stomachs of autistic children (maybe that is the study you heard?).  The Dr behind the study did state that the vaccine had not been the source however, since some of the children had not had the vaccine.

Just as an aside (and not meant to anyone in particular) 
I personally believe that any vaccine carries a risk and it depends entirely on the childs health at the time when the vaccine is injected or taken orally.  The website that Casie gave, is a biased one - however it does make a very good point that people do not inform themselves enough about the routine vaccines that children are expected to undertake.
 
Peace
the.dark.




Arpig -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/18/2007 3:09:32 PM)

quote:

That was Wakefields research. It is completely wrong. The Lancet has retracted the article.

Actually DomKen, Wakefield's research was only one of many things we researched, like I said we read everything we could lay our hands on...the medical journals, the wild-eyed web sites, and every book in the local library that had anything to do with autism. I fully accept that the appearance of autistic behaviours and the 1st MMR shot may well be coincidence, but at the time the research had not been disproved (or rather withdrawn), but like I said it was the measles in the autistic children's digestive tract that gave us pause for thought.

quote:

As to the special diet if it works for you fine but there is no evidence that it is actually effective either.

The diet does indeed work for us, when My son eats something that has been contaminated his coping abilities drop markedly 2 days later, and he has meltdowns, crushing headaches, a firm reliance on routines becomes iron-clad, and any variations cause him to lose it and to cry and withdraw, he is completely at a loss to interact with the world. It is not only us who see this in him, but he himself realises the difference in his condition (he is very high functioning) and he avoids any unknown foods...if he doesn't know it is safe then he won't eat it. Again it may be that in some autistic children the inability to properly break down casin and gluten may contribute to their difficulties, and that the gluten & casin are not the causes of autistic spectrum disorders, but rather aggrivating factors, which seems to be the case with my son, and the other autistic spectrum children we know who have been put on the diet. We have the evidence of life, it is right in front of us. Remeber, there is no scientific evidence that sugar makes kids hyper, but just ask any parent and they will confirm the fact that it does indeed do so.

quote:

The Dr behind the study did state that the vaccine had not been the source however, since some of the children had not had the vaccine.

Entirely possible, I suppose that it may be something with a particular strain of non-virulent measles in some children that triggers the autism, or perhaps whatever triggers the autism in those children has a side effect of making their systems conducive to these bacterial colonies.

The one thing I came away with from all the research we did (and still do) is that their is likely no one cause of autism, that there are likely many different contributing factors that may or may not be the cause in any given autistic child, including some genetic factors (several members of my ex's family show marked autistic behaviours, even as adults), and what will trigger the autism in one child may not in another. Since medical science doesn't really understand the mechanics (or rather the brain chemistry) behind autism, they have no way of pointing at a cause. Wakefield may be 100% right for some children, and 100% wrong for others.

My understanding of it is that the various autistic spectrum disorders are symptoms rather than specific diseases, there can be any number of different factors that contribute to the behaviours and developmental problems, much like a runny nose could be due to a cold, the flu or allergies...the runny nose in and of itself is simply a symptom, not the disease/disorder.

thanks for plowing through my long posts on this.




RCdc -> RE: .mmr 'scare' doctor to face charges. (7/19/2007 1:03:03 AM)

I would completely support the idea of diet and its effects on austism and in general.  I have two healthy children who are thrown into complete confusion or illness depending on what they consume.  Myself, I notice a change in my own behaviour should I eat any number of foods from sugar to caffine - and particularly fish.  Food and diet do play a big part of our immune system and brain function... and for all those old wives tales that exist there are some good pointers that show there are 'reasons' behind them.  Migraines, stomach problems and ulcers, mood swings, and lethargy are all possible side effects from the food we consume, including how we cook it and how fresh it is and where it has come from - I totally believe that.
 
I also agree that autism isn't fully understood and that there are so many factors and possible triggers that it is possible that wakefields work may be 100% for some children - but I would suspect that 'some' is a small percentage and it just goes to show how dangerous sweeping generalisations can be.  I just wish he hadn't been so adamant on his research to be taken as a general view.  But the one thing I cannot support is the alleged abuse he put children through to aid his research and as I said before, to me, it just tarnishes his results and makes them totally unethical if he did do what is reported.
 
I believe your child is extremely fortunate to have your support Arpig.
 
Peace
the.dark.




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