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Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 11:56:10 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		On domiguy's "man-haters/woman-haters thread, I found an interesting post by MistressLorelei.  I contacted her and asked if I could use her post to start another thread rather than hijack domiguy's.  She graciously granted me permission to do so.  Her post:

Speaking from a women's aspect....

I think there are a lot (certainly not all women, just a lot) of women who are rather down on the male gender, who while they find males feed their needs sexually, really don't have an appreciation for the male gender.  Most women have had relationships with the types of males who who could taint the views of how she perceives the male gender as a whole.

I will be honest and say that....  I know exactly what I don't want in a male submissive.  I want someone who does not fit into what most would perceive as the 'typical male'.  While I want a male to look like a male, I want him to be in touch with his feminine side and see the world through  a more of a feminine point of view.  I no longer want that "bad boy" type of male I would have gone after once upon a time.

However, while some women might want to take out aggression on the male gender on behalf of negative male experiences, I have come to adopt a special fondness for the type of male I have described above.  While I do enjoy some sadistic activities because its simply a turn-on for me, I consider it affection or love towards another as I would only want to share such affection with someone I deeply connected with. 

I think that the male gender often has to prove to  the female gender that 'he' isn't one of the bad ones.  It's unfortunate really, as there are some wonderful males out there.  I am sure the same could be said about women, but I have no experience with that side of things.

Now, I find the above interesting.  It seems to me that Ms. Lorelei is expressing a preference for what some term the "sensitive" or "gentle" male...the male some refer to as the "Alan Alda" male.  Strong but in touch with his feelings...some would say that is a negative and it is true that the "Alan Alda" male has come to represent a negative type of male to many but let's go with the good one here.

Are there other female dominants that seek similar male submissives for the reasons given by M. Lorelei?  And conversely...do you think "feminist backlash" is the reason many male dominants seek out a more "traditional" type of female submissive?  Not a doormat type...an intelligent, reasonable, capable submissive who seeks what is thought of as the more traditional type of female role within her relationship dynamic?
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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 12:09:29 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I think we're all pretty fucked up in what we think about gender, self-identity, social identity and co-existing together.  A lot of guys SAY that they want the strong yet submissive yet slutty type of woman- but their actions would suggest that they just want a mom they can fuck.  A lot of women SAY they want to be taken care of and treated well, and then choose idiots and assholes to be with.

We confuse aggression with strength, softness with weakness, and put so many boxes on so many things that we're constantly walking on eggshells. 

I want the "rennaissance" type man who really does have it all.

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 12:20:06 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
A lot of guys SAY that they want the strong yet submissive yet slutty type of woman- but their actions would suggest that they just want a mom they can fuck. 


Oh god, that's hysterical! Thank you.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 12:22:39 PM   
Grlwithboy


Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline 		Alan-Alda-esque "feminist men" are usually the ones with the MOST hang ups about women. I insist on men who treat me as human, worthy of respect, and who are kinked and generally happier submitting - not because they're "kids of the seventies" or "sensitive" as a kind of self-identifier but because that's who they are. My husband hasn't read the feminist canon, he's just aware of other people's feelings as he moves through the world, and it's a trait I like.


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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 12:24:03 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Are there other female dominants that seek similar male submissives for the reasons given by M. Lorelei? 


I'm not quite sure I'm following here, 'cause she gave different reasons for different things. Can you clarify a bit? Are you asking if some of us prefer male sexed people who have a more feminine gender?

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 12:24:29 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
A lot of guys SAY that they want the strong yet submissive yet slutty type of woman- but their actions would suggest that they just want a mom they can fuck. 


Oh god, that's hysterical! Thank you.

Master Fire



Hysterical but so true.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 12:28:31 PM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I don't know.  I see a lot of myself in that type of description.  And that's even from the male dominant point-of-view.  While I long ago recognized in some female dominants a disdain for males which led them to use those feelings (inappropriately, in my opinion) to use men for their own purposes, I in many ways share some of their views.  And this from a man.

I don't necessarily believe 'gender' or 'gender stereotypes' is a BDSM issue (although it gets clouded in D/s relationships).  Depending on the nature of what two people call their 'relationship', I would believe that most women would want to be with a man who is not blind to her/her needs/her wiring.  It's good for men to be able to understand a woman, or at least a specific one.  Actually, to be more blunt, it's good for any given man to understand something that isn't 'him'.

I'm not making this post in order to gain anything personal particularly, because I am now in a very happy, very committed relationship.  Having said that, I always knew that many women might find me a 'catch' in the sense that I'm more understanding and compassionate to their being.  So, this isn't propaganda talking.  I assume there are submissive women who want, or claim they want, someone a little less on the 'caring' side, but I believe after a while they might find that some of what they are getting from a man to equate to 'lack of respect'.

I'm not particularly fond of the feminist viewpoint, or feminist backlash.  I just wish men treated women better from the beginning, such that these feminist ideals never had to occur.

For what it's worth.

Jeff

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Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 12:31:13 PM   
sweetNsmartBBW


Posts: 167
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline 		I think that, like in all things, it boils down to individual preferences- which are developed over a lifetime.  Since no two people have the same experiences, the same genetic predispositions...or the same education and needs...how we  arrive at what we identify as our 'ideal' is as varied as the amount of people out there searching.   

It's funny, while I consider myself a "traditional" type of female submissive- I somewhat think that I view myself that way ~because~ of  the "feminist backlash".  I resent being dictated to by radical feminists about what it means to be a woman.  To me, being a true feminist is about supporting women in their choices; no matter what they may be.  If that means that being submissive is what nurtures and fulfills a given woman, than decrying that choice is not feminism...it's prejudice.  'Feminists' that look to limit a woman's choices, that judge those that chose something that goes against what's considered mainstream- are not at all furthering the cause of women in any way. 

While I happen to like traditional Men...I must say that I'm actually attracted to the type that has old fashioned ways about Them.  It's not so much looking for an Alan Alda male....as looking for One that has a firm understanding of Who He is, what He wants....and taking the time to find out if it's compatible with what I know I need.  Like LuckyAlbatross, I too want it all...

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 12:40:00 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

And conversely...do you think "feminist backlash" is the reason many male dominants seek out a more "traditional" type of female submissive? Not a doormat type...an intelligent, reasonable, capable submissive who seeks what is thought of as the more traditional type of female role within her relationship dynamic?


What do you mean by this part? I could use a clarifaction, particularly on "feminist backlash".

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 1:38:31 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
A lot of guys SAY that they want the strong yet submissive yet slutty type of woman- but their actions would suggest that they just want a mom they can fuck. 


Oh god, that's hysterical! Thank you.

Master Fire


That is hysterical and reminds me of a song off Gretchen Wilson's new album called "If You Want A Mother."  Kinda off subject but right along with what LA said about guys wanting a mother-figure they can fuck as well.....here's the lyrics:

Artist/Band: Wilson Gretchen
Lyrics for Song: If You Want a Mother
Lyrics for Album: One of the Boys
"you want me to bring you home the bacon.
fry it up and serve it to you, too.
when I don't you act so godforsaken.
like somehow i've been mistreatin' you.
i know that's the way your mama did it.
she waited on you dang near all your life
it took a while but now i finally got it.
you we're never lookin' for a wife.

chorus:if you want a mother I can be one, that ain't all that difficult for me, we can do it your way from now on, son, and
i'll show what a mother I can be.

remember, tuesday night when you're out bowling.
you better have your butt back home by nine.
otherwise you're grounded for the weekend.
and that brand new silverado will be mine.
and in the evenin' when your feelin' sleepy.
we'll i'll tuck you in and pat your head.
and i'll be right down the hall if you should need me.
but big boys have to sleep in their own bed.

repeat chorus

you can go back to mama's apron strings.
bet your momma would be a mother just like me."

...just made me think of this...lol........luci

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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 1:41:23 PM   
EmpassionedRogue


Posts: 27
Joined: 6/13/2007
Status: offline 		yes, ive noticed that to. we (men) do have to proove ourselves to women. and a special note, to be in touch with a femine side, doesnt make the man a sissyboy.  i am, and yet im still very masculine.

yes ive also noticed that many or even most of the "dommes"... at least of the ones ive seen are users, seeminly wishing to abuse for their personal enjoyment exclusivly.   <- this can be taken wrong and i really hope it isnt

< Message edited by EmpassionedRogue -- 7/17/2007 1:53:05 PM >

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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 2:57:49 PM   
SlND3R3LLA


Posts: 118
Joined: 6/19/2007
Status: offline 		I just like that my man acts like a man.  It may not be what you think one should act like, but it works well for me.  We all probably look for different things depending on what has worked for us in the past, or what we felt lacked from various relationships/people.
 
I want my sub to be the same way as my Master.  He is strong, intelligent, has a great sense of humor, a little rough around the edges, sensitive, but not too much (he isn't afraid to tell me he loves me, yet doesn't cry at the drop of a hat). 
 
If I want a girl, I will have a female sub, but I want a man...therefore I prefer he act like one.  To each their own, we all like something different..guess that's why there are so many different types out there.
 
Sin
 

_____________________________

And in that moment, everything I knew to be true about myself up until then was gone. I was acting like another woman, yet I was more myself than ever before. ~F

To hell with diamonds, lube is a girls best friend ;)

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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 3:12:21 PM   
domiguy


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Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I think we're all pretty fucked up in what we think about gender, self-identity, social identity and co-existing together.  A lot of guys SAY that they want the strong yet submissive yet slutty type of woman- but their actions would suggest that they just want a mom they can fuck. 


Nothing wrong with a little "milf" action...You were not actually talking about fucking your mom....EEEEEEW!!!

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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 4:17:35 PM   
Tristan


Posts: 330
Joined: 5/31/2004
Status: offline
quote:

And conversely...do you think "feminist backlash" is the reason many male dominants seek out a more "traditional" type of female submissive?  Not a doormat type...an intelligent, reasonable, capable submissive who seeks what is thought of as the more traditional type of female role within her relationship dynamic?


Personally, I've seen a lot of toxicity and non-appreciation in many women I've dated.   A good example is when I spent many days helping a g/f remodel her bathroom only to be told by her how much I should appreciate her for putting a load of laundary in the wash for me.  I never asked her for anything except a few beers when I finished each day.  However, she also made it clear to me that she will not be doing laundary again for me anytime soon.

Many women have what I call the "I'm an independent women so I therefore do not have to cooperate with you syndrom".  What's implied is that I'm supposed to cooperate with them at all times, but they can cooperate only when they feel like it.  This attitude seems to come from a combination of insecurities and toxic ideas about men in general.

I work hard in nearly all that I do, and truly enjoy working with and helping others.  I don't expect anything specific in return when I do something like help remodel a bathroom, but I do expect the same respect I give.  If I give something without strings, don't be telling me every time you do something for me how much I should appreciate your efforts. 

What I seek in a submissive is someone who is comfortable giving, and who also respects what I give.  What I don't want is someone who feels to the need to constantly remind me how much I owe her for the things that she does or someone who has the attitude that submission is a gift.  I'm willing to give more than I receive, and I would like to be respected for who I am and what I'm willing do for my partner.

Tristan

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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 4:37:26 PM   
BRNaughtyAngel


Posts: 1821
Status: offline 		I don't want a man that's in touch with his feminine side.  I want one that's in touch with my feminine side.  

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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 4:44:23 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I think we're all pretty fucked up in what we think about gender, self-identity, social identity and co-existing together. A lot of guys SAY that they want the strong yet submissive yet slutty type of woman- but their actions would suggest that they just want a mom they can fuck. A lot of women SAY they want to be taken care of and treated well, and then choose idiots and assholes to be with.


This is true. I have known male dominants who say that but then it seems that their submissives end up complaining that it is just like being with a vanilla guy only with more orders.
Of course, I would imagine that there are femdominants who say they want a sensitiive, understanding submissive male when really what they want is a male who will (has to?) listen to them bitch and moan about the rest of the male populace while he is doing housework and doesn't bother them for sex.

quote:

We confuse aggression with strength, softness with weakness, and put so many boxes on so many things that we're constantly walking on eggshells.

I want the "rennaissance" type man who really does have it all.


It seems, from what you've said, that you have found at least one in your relationships...~s~.


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 4:46:08 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Are there other female dominants that seek similar male submissives for the reasons given by M. Lorelei?


I'm not quite sure I'm following here, 'cause she gave different reasons for different things. Can you clarify a bit? Are you asking if some of us prefer male sexed people who have a more feminine gender?

Master Fire



No...I am asking if there are other femdominants who want men who are more like the "good" Alan Alda type...understanding and sympathetic to a woman's needs, ready to give himself over to her needs and wants and desires, intellectual without being arrogant, etc., etc.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 4:51:30 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

I don't know. I see a lot of myself in that type of description. And that's even from the male dominant point-of-view. While I long ago recognized in some female dominants a disdain for males which led them to use those feelings (inappropriately, in my opinion) to use men for their own purposes, I in many ways share some of their views. And this from a man.

I don't necessarily believe 'gender' or 'gender stereotypes' is a BDSM issue (although it gets clouded in D/s relationships). Depending on the nature of what two people call their 'relationship', I would believe that most women would want to be with a man who is not blind to her/her needs/her wiring. It's good for men to be able to understand a woman, or at least a specific one. Actually, to be more blunt, it's good for any given man to understand something that isn't 'him'.

I'm not making this post in order to gain anything personal particularly, because I am now in a very happy, very committed relationship. Having said that, I always knew that many women might find me a 'catch' in the sense that I'm more understanding and compassionate to their being. So, this isn't propaganda talking. I assume there are submissive women who want, or claim they want, someone a little less on the 'caring' side, but I believe after a while they might find that some of what they are getting from a man to equate to 'lack of respect'.

I'm not particularly fond of the feminist viewpoint, or feminist backlash. I just wish men treated women better from the beginning, such that these feminist ideals never had to occur.

For what it's worth.

Jeff


I think that a lot of what you have said makes sense, Jeff. For what it is worth, most of the submissives from here that know me, know me as a fairly decent, understanding, empathetic type of guy who has a clear idea that it is not just my wants and needs and desires that drive the D/s dynamic, it is ours. That said, they also understand that I am not fond of the feminist viewpoints and that I prefer to be the dominant in the relationship with all that entails...which has been discussed in countless other threads on this forum. They also know that, like sweetnsmart BBW, I believe that a lot of the problems that have come about between the sexes has been, in part, due to skewed viewpoints from the feminine half and that not all of the problem is male-viewpoint-generated.

(in reply to mstrjx)
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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 4:54:41 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

And conversely...do you think "feminist backlash" is the reason many male dominants seek out a more "traditional" type of female submissive? Not a doormat type...an intelligent, reasonable, capable submissive who seeks what is thought of as the more traditional type of female role within her relationship dynamic?


What do you mean by this part? I could use a clarifaction, particularly on "feminist backlash".


I think, just as there are femdominants who have grown weary of the "chest-pounding" male, there are male dominants who have grown weary of the "chest-pounding" female. They want a woman who caters to them...who listens to them...who serves them...happily. Someone who recognizes them as the "head" of their relationship.

As noted, it comes down to individual perspectives of what "traditional" is but think of it in this manner, if it helps: Just as the "good" Alan Alda type...or Renaissance type (as LA put it) submissive male is the anti-"chest-beater", then the "traditional" type would be the opposite of the "chest-beater" feminist type who blames men for everything. See Tristan's post for another example of the "non-traditional" type of woman.

And before anyone goes off on me, let me just state that I know that there are men that behave in this same manner. But this thread is not about same behaviors that are wrong or same behaviors that are right...it is about femdominants seeking a certain type of submissive male and dominant males seeking another type of female submissives...different and yet somewhat complementary. The original post is not about putting anyone down, male or female, dominant or submissive. It was a post that arose out of my intellectual curiosity piqued by Ms. Lorelei's post on another thread.

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 7/17/2007 5:08:09 PM >

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RE: Curious about views of submissives - 7/17/2007 5:01:23 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel

I don't want a man that's in touch with his feminine side. I want one that's in touch with my feminine side.


Just grins and bites tongue....cuz I am sooooooooooo trying to be good and serious here.

(in reply to BRNaughtyAngel)
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