RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (Full Version)

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darkinshadows -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 5:46:14 AM)

quote:

do not know why you are even concerned. What the hell do you care? Do you own a porn site or something? Are you freely distributing yourself naked to every smut peddler in the USA? It is not your supposed freedom of speech (sic) being abridged. They still have the freedom to peddle their beloved porn.


Speaking as an artist who sells work, and for many friends who sell online - this could open up a huge can of worms for artists. What if they don't use a model? I know I don't always - and so, I can't 'prove' who my work is of. What about people who enjoy posing for body parts, but don't wish to have their face plastered everywhere and are used for body art or photography? I know I have worked with people who would prefere to remain anon and earn a living from torso shots or footwork. It isn't just about protecting the innocent, peoples livelihoods are at stake.

Without Monet, what about Renoir, and visa versa?
What now of work by Tracy Emin?

One law starts - another comes along that will ultimately effect you. It isn't fair to attack peoples opinions and come down so hard without realising that people might not agree with you.
I truely don't understand the mentality of people attacking each other in such ways instead of just discussing such an important subject. It is about peoples freedoms. Peoples rights to be protected, yes, but also people right to express themselves in a way without being condemmed and judged for what they do.

Peace and Love




SirKenin -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 5:52:53 AM)

*sigh*

Why is it such a big deal to prepare a little deal about the origin of the material Y/you are prolificating? Even though the Law might be a little ambiguous, it's intent is clear. Like I said, it has been in effect for printed media for some time. Why were Y/you not crying about it then?

Even if it is a thinly veiled attempt to reduce pornography on the web, so what? How will that in any way diminish O/our quality of life? There will still be plenty of it around for the normal people that believe in complying with a rather simple (maintain documentation) Law. If you do not like it, chances are that you are not above board anyways.

It sickens Me to see the number of people that are so concerned about protecting the amount of smut they get to masturbate to.




SirKenin -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 5:57:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Speaking as an artist who sells work, and for many friends who sell online - this could open up a huge can of worms for artists. What if they don't use a model? I know I don't always - and so, I can't 'prove' who my work is of. What about people who enjoy posing for body parts, but don't wish to have their face plastered everywhere and are used for body art or photography? I know I have worked with people who would prefere to remain anon and earn a living from torso shots or footwork. It isn't just about protecting the innocent, peoples livelihoods are at stake.


The way the Law works for printed media, it is just for porn photographs. you do not see them censoring art with this Law. That is a ridiculous stretch and a misinterpretation of the intent of the Law. In photographs you have to use a model, obviously. The Law is demanding that you keep records of where this model came from, how old, did s/he give written consent, etc.




SirKenin -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 6:00:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Kenin, we all know you're a piece of work, but in this thread you've totally lost control. Stop insulting people who disagree with you. For one thing, they're right and you're wrong. It sounds like you haven't even read the law! Lastly, it's embarrassing--to YOU.


Oh, your intelligence and thoughtful, objective analysis cleared everything right up. Thank you for such a useful contribution to the thread.




darkinshadows -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 6:08:35 AM)

I totally understand - but the law is pretty open to being exaggerated by any extremists that might decide to wage a campaign on what they 'see' as porn.

Also - what about people who don't wish to be identified because they want to protect themself because of cultural issues? What about digital manipulation photography? It is basically providing a list of people who consent to images of sexual nature. Or even social. I know an artist who took photographs of mutilated men and women - this raised much needed money for a charity. However, some of those models would have been killed if it was discovered they had been party to it. I know it may seem that people might be taking an extreme view of this law, but to claim its about protecting the innocent from manipulation would be an understatement, truely. It's just another law to allow the powers that be to gain insight into peoples lives. It is an infringment of privacy, no more, no less.

Peace and Love




SirKenin -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 6:38:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I totally understand - but the law is pretty open to being exaggerated by any extremists that might decide to wage a campaign on what they 'see' as porn.

Also - what about people who don't wish to be identified because they want to protect themself because of cultural issues? What about digital manipulation photography? It is basically providing a list of people who consent to images of sexual nature. Or even social. I know an artist who took photographs of mutilated men and women - this raised much needed money for a charity. However, some of those models would have been killed if it was discovered they had been party to it. I know it may seem that people might be taking an extreme view of this law, but to claim its about protecting the innocent from manipulation would be an understatement, truely. It's just another law to allow the powers that be to gain insight into peoples lives. It is an infringment of privacy, no more, no less.


I think to truly understand this Law, Y/you need to understand the import of it's predecessor, which E/everyone here has so far failed to do. W/we already have an established precedent. So, all W/we have to do is examine that Law and the impact it has had on U/us, which really is none at all.

The internet will be a little trickier, but I think the only major impact it will have is preventing people like gay.com from circumventing existing pornography Laws, essentially making them an impromptu porn site. Y/you do not need to have pornography in a successful classified ad. Besides, somehow I doubt sites like that will be targetted. It is perhaps one thing to say the site COULD be targetted, yet another to say it WILL.

edit: as far as people identifying themselves goes, cultural issues only have import amongst the person's culture. The government does not hold them to task for violating the cultural norm. The government just wants to make sure their rights, and the rights of the producer(s) of the work(s) are protected. The government could care less about the accepted cultural norms. The only people that will be allowed to have access to the records is the government.




darkinshadows -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 8:08:35 AM)

quote:

The only people that will be allowed to have access to the records is the government


Yikes - I don't mean this to sound mean or sarcastic, truely, but if a person believes that, then a person believes anything.

And even if it were true that governments only would be privy to such information, isn't that the last people you would want to know such if you were in that situation?

15 odd years ago, people were leaving SA just because to stay would have been suicide. And that governments used personal information to raid peoples homes. It happened then, it still happens now.

In canada, a man could be arrested and placed into psyc units because of his fetish.

In the US, people can carry arms, yet for another country to hold them in self protection, is seen as an obvious threat.

Peoples freedoms and rights are being violated. It isn't about protecting, it is all about control. The laws already in place do infringe already - just because people are becoming more aware and deciding to question amendments to older laws just proves that people are more aware of whats happening around them and to their privacy.

As an artist, laws don't protect my rights or the coyrights - its made to provide protection for the larger corperations and agencies who make the BIG money by manipulating my rights and others.

Peace and Love




Ssilver -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 9:17:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

The way the Law works for printed media, it is just for porn photographs. you do not see them censoring art with this Law. That is a ridiculous stretch and a misinterpretation of the intent of the Law. In photographs you have to use a model, obviously. The Law is demanding that you keep records of where this model came from, how old, did s/he give written consent, etc.


Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed the "secondary producer" aspects of this law. You did miss that part, right, and not just misunderstand it?




Faramir -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 9:33:04 AM)

I know this looks like some shitty legislation, but what is up with the end of he world stuff?

Don't you guys get it?

#1:

quote:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
— The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution


'k?

#2:
quote:

Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.



Bitch all you want about this law - I've already written to my Congressmen about how I feel on the matter - it's bad law.

But the sky is falling shit is always wrong - if the legislature passes an unconstitutional law - it's unconstitutional.

'k?




SirKenin -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 11:23:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ssilver

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

The way the Law works for printed media, it is just for porn photographs. you do not see them censoring art with this Law. That is a ridiculous stretch and a misinterpretation of the intent of the Law. In photographs you have to use a model, obviously. The Law is demanding that you keep records of where this model came from, how old, did s/he give written consent, etc.


Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed the "secondary producer" aspects of this law. You did miss that part, right, and not just misunderstand it?


Ummm... Yes? I guess I did...?




SirKenin -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 11:34:23 AM)


quote:

Bitch all you want about this law - I've already written to my Congressmen about how I feel on the matter - it's bad law.

But the sky is falling shit is always wrong - if the legislature passes an unconstitutional law - it's unconstitutional.

'k?


How is this Law abridging Y/your freedom of speech? To Me all it is saying is "Ok, peddle your wares, but have your bases covered". What is wrong with that? For the life of Me I can not see the problem. I guess webmasters will have to be more diligent about watching what shows up on their servers.

Besides, do W/we REALLY need to be inundated with pornography everywhere W/we turn? What exactly does it say about the individual if they have to post their T&A in a classified ad? Is that the level of class you want to stoop to when you are looking for someone? Do Y/you really HAVE to exploit some young girl on a webcam just so Y/you can get Y/yourself off? Is there nothing better Y/you can be doing with Y/your time? To Me, anyone that is running to the defense of the pornography is only justifying their own selfish wanton desires without any thought whatsoever about those being exploited (whether for or against their own will). Just a thought. I really do not see this as being a bad thing.




Faramir -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 11:43:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin


quote:

Bitch all you want about this law - I've already written to my Congressmen about how I feel on the matter - it's bad law.

But the sky is falling shit is always wrong - if the legislature passes an unconstitutional law - it's unconstitutional.

'k?


How is this Law abridging Y/your freedom of speech? To Me all it is saying is "Ok, peddle your wares, but have your bases covered". What is wrong with that? For the life of Me I can not see the problem. I guess webmasters will have to be more diligent about watching what shows up on their servers.

Besides, do W/we REALLY need to be inundated with pornography everywhere W/we turn? What exactly does it say about the individual if they have to post their T&A in a classified ad? Is that the level of class you want to stoop to when you are looking for someone? Do Y/you really HAVE to exploit some young girl on a webcam just so Y/you can get Y/yourself off? Is there nothing better Y/you can be doing with Y/your time? To Me, anyone that is running to the defense of the pornography is only justifying their own selfish wanton desires without any thought whatsoever about those being exploited (whether for or against their own will). Just a thought. I really do not see this as being a bad thing.


W/what the F/fuck are Y/you talking about?




Ssilver -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 11:45:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ssilver

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

The way the Law works for printed media, it is just for porn photographs. you do not see them censoring art with this Law. That is a ridiculous stretch and a misinterpretation of the intent of the Law. In photographs you have to use a model, obviously. The Law is demanding that you keep records of where this model came from, how old, did s/he give written consent, etc.


Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed the "secondary producer" aspects of this law. You did miss that part, right, and not just misunderstand it?


Ummm... Yes? I guess I did...?


You might want to pay a bit of attention to it. It's the part that is getting people riled up...




AAkasha -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 11:51:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin


quote:

Bitch all you want about this law - I've already written to my Congressmen about how I feel on the matter - it's bad law.

But the sky is falling shit is always wrong - if the legislature passes an unconstitutional law - it's unconstitutional.

'k?


How is this Law abridging Y/your freedom of speech? To Me all it is saying is "Ok, peddle your wares, but have your bases covered". What is wrong with that? For the life of Me I can not see the problem. I guess webmasters will have to be more diligent about watching what shows up on their servers.

Besides, do W/we REALLY need to be inundated with pornography everywhere W/we turn? What exactly does it say about the individual if they have to post their T&A in a classified ad? Is that the level of class you want to stoop to when you are looking for someone? Do Y/you really HAVE to exploit some young girl on a webcam just so Y/you can get Y/yourself off? Is there nothing better Y/you can be doing with Y/your time? To Me, anyone that is running to the defense of the pornography is only justifying their own selfish wanton desires without any thought whatsoever about those being exploited (whether for or against their own will). Just a thought. I really do not see this as being a bad thing.


Could you do everyone a favor and read up on 2257 (completely, including the secondary producer definitions) before trying to get involved in this discussion?

Akasha




mantis65 -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 12:59:17 PM)

someone posted to another group an article that explains how 2257 Could turn some people into “secondary producers” . I don’t think the sky is falling.
I think this may at some point get struck down .
not before creating a chilling effect on “Undocumented” photos on U.S. based websites


Strict federal regulations that are scheduled to take effect later this week could cripple many Internet porn sites and burden other sites with adult photos in personal ads or retail offerings.

http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?2005/06/21/1




Lordandmaster -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 1:15:11 PM)

I know I'm not going to change your mind about this law, but if I can get you to stop insulting everyone who disagrees with you, I may have achieved something.

I thought Christ taught us to love our neighbors, not insult them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Kenin, we all know you're a piece of work, but in this thread you've totally lost control. Stop insulting people who disagree with you. For one thing, they're right and you're wrong. It sounds like you haven't even read the law! Lastly, it's embarrassing--to YOU.


Oh, your intelligence and thoughtful, objective analysis cleared everything right up. Thank you for such a useful contribution to the thread.




ProScatman -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 1:54:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin


quote:

ORIGINAL: ProScatman


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

People cry about the stupidest things. All this Law means is that you can not rip off someone else's work and you can not post images that do not belong to you or the model did not give you express consent to post them. What the hell is the big deal? Your speech is not being impeded. Get over it already. Heh. Holy.


quote:

I took the trouble to go read this 2257 crap! I suggest you do the same and take all the time you need, and perhaps ask someone to sit with you to explain the big words! There is no telling how or who will be targeted. The legislation is quite broad based, and has the potential to be selectively inforced; under the guise that "we can't arrest everyone at once"! And most everyone knows how many in government feel about our lifestyle. Remember how they got Al Capone? Tax evasion!


Your panties are in a knot for nothing. This reminds Me of the big huge deal everyone made over Google mail. They see one little detail and blow it all out of proportion, getting their noses out of joint and their knickers in a bunch. It COULD mean this so let us get all hell bent for leather and make a HUGE deal out of it.

I do not know why you are even concerned. What the hell do you care? Do you own a porn site or something? Are you freely distributing yourself naked to every smut peddler in the USA? It is not your supposed freedom of speech (sic) being abridged. They still have the freedom to peddle their beloved porn. They just have to make sure they have their bases covered, just like the porn magazines. Big deal. This Law has been in effect for printed porn for some time. Do you see Hugh Hefner selling off Playboy?

Man, you people really need to get a grip on reality, I swear.
The FBI won’t fess up to what new system they now use, but according to them, the new system is able to target just one user on a network and collect exactly the information a court-order allowed them to collect, for example just the e-mail communication. There’s some info about it here:

quote:

http://www.securityfocus.com/news/10307

Note this part in the article:

[...] One controversy revolved around the FBI's legally-murky use of the device to obtain e-mail headers and other information without a wiretap warrant -- an issue Congress resolved by explicitly legalizing the practice in the 2001 USA PATRIOT Act.

Under section 216 of the act, the FBI can conduct a limited form of Internet surveillance without first visiting a judge and establishing probable cause that the target has committed a crime. In such cases the FBI is authorized to capture routing information like e-mail addresses or IP addresses, but not the contents of the communications.

[...] Other cases investigated under section 216 involved alleged mail fraud, controlled substance sales, [...]

Note the controlled substances part. That’s a huge point for people buying steroids through the internet, and should be enough to scare the shit out of paranoid users.

Also note that the reports they refer to in the article above only list cases where they performed surveillance without a court authorization. And there’s no report for 2004…


quote:

The way I see it; if this site or anyony on it get burned--I get burned! I care about the site owners here! I've been on this site for quite a while now, and the owners haven't asked me for a penny. I'm not a hurray for me--fuck you kind of person! Have you never heard of Carnivore?








mantis65 -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 2:09:16 PM)

quote:

Your panties are in a knot for nothing. This reminds Me of the big huge deal everyone made over Google mail. They see one little detail and blow it all out of proportion, getting their noses out of joint and their knickers in a bunch. It COULD mean this so let us get all hell bent for leather and make a HUGE deal out of it.


Goggle mail was just a privacy issue and you have the choice of not using Goggle mail.
This can mean ten years in prison over a photo or video that you post.
Basically this is a way of criminalizing as much adult content as possible.
This one little detail was added to 2257 to put people in prison.




extrapale -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 2:16:07 PM)

My two cents on those amendments...

Faramir, what about homosexuals? They aren't enjoying the same rights and protection as heterosexuals. And freedom of speech? We may have freedom of speech but the government has the "freedom" to censor us.

The same thing could very well happen here.




anthrosub -> RE: Section 18 U.S.C. § 2257 (6/24/2005 2:19:10 PM)

SirKenin,
It's not about you. AAkasha (and others) here and in other threads that you've posted to, are simply helping to prevent those who may be less informed from being misinformed by pseudo-intellectuals posting statements written in such a way as to give the impression of authority on the subject at hand (something you demonstrate a particular penchant for doing). They are essentially filling in the gaps or including important information you leave out.

I've noticed your irritation and it’s clear you have the misconception that anyone who follows up one of your posts must be a member of some "clique" that's got it in for you. This is simply not true. In the thread about Ads on this site, you reminded me of someone who locked himself in a room and was refusing to come out for anyone, no matter what they said. I found it telling that the only post you gave even a hint of positive acknowledgment to was from perverseangelic...a post filled with condescending praise and apologetic criticism.

If you insist on continueing this approach, be prepared to see posts cleaning up the mess you leave behind. Remember, when you speak (or in this case...write) you cannot help but tell people who you are. This is an inescapable fact. Eventually, people will stop trying to get through to you on a personal level but will not cease correcting the partial or misinformation you focus on in your posts.

Now, you can consider this, serve up another one of your stellar replies that only confirms what I've stated above (and we've all seen many times before), or toss in another trite post of dismissal. It's up to you.

anthrosub




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