Racial Issue...Any Advice? (Full Version)

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abytchgoddess4u -> Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/19/2007 10:12:50 PM)

I seem to have a bit of a problem, which I've avoided dealing with for a long while, but I'd like to know if anyone else has any suggestions for how to get past it.

I have a psychological boundary to playing with black subs.

Back when I dated vanilla...'lo those many years ago, I used to love dating black men. They treated me well, were respectful, etc...all the good stuff.

When I finally decided not to date 'nilla anymore, I didn't live in a place with a large black population and didn't for a number of years, so I didn't even realise this was an issue. Now that I'm in a much more diverse city, I have more opportunity to meet(and be attracted to) black men. In fact, I've been approached by a number of them in a D/s context...and turned them down.

I just can't seem to get past the historical implications of slavery. My mind just can't picture my doing horrifically evil and wonderful things to these men, no matter how hot they may be.

In my youthful Uni years, I did a lot of awareness work educating whites about their own racism and I seem to have internalized it in such a way as to block myself from being able to go there.

Has anyone dealt with this? And if so, how?

~sigh~



Estring -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/19/2007 10:22:21 PM)

You are not engaging in slavery. These men are consenting to be used by you. You have "white guilt" which has been responsible for many boneheaded decisions through the years that have actually hurt blacks rather than helped them. You are actually discriminating against men because of the color of their skin. What is that called?



LadyHeart -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/19/2007 10:36:57 PM)

It's much the same issue as a male Dom deals with when he first hits a fem sub, programmed from childhood by all those "boys don't hit girls" messages. The only way to push through it is to do it. It will get easier after the first time and after a while you won't even think about it any more.

I know how you feel. We were once approached by a sub of Asian extraction whose fantasy was to be humiliated by Europeans. All my Political Correctness revolted, and we nearly refused, but we went ahead and did it on the grounds that it was consensual, and everyone had a great time. That hang up is gone for good.

My advice? Just do it!

:))
LH



abytchgoddess4u -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/19/2007 10:55:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring
You are not engaging in slavery. These men are consenting to be used by you. You have "white guilt" which has been responsible for many boneheaded decisions through the years that have actually hurt blacks rather than helped them. You are actually discriminating against men because of the color of their skin. What is that called?


I am well aware of the facts you mentioned. I am intelligent enough to self-analyse. What I am asking for is suggestions to break through the blockage...but thanks for the patronising tone, it's appreciated and so very helpful.

quote:

ORIGINAL:LadyHeart
It's much the same issue as a male Dom deals with when he first hits a fem sub, programmed from childhood by all those "boys don't hit girls" messages. The only way to push through it is to do it. It will get easier after the first time and after a while you won't even think about it any more.


I definitely see your point. I went through a similar thing when I first admitted my sadistic nature. After A LOT of soul searching, I went, "Eh, fuck it!", and started doing nasty things.[:D]

But, this seems to be different, or perhaps just more ingrained. Maybe one day I'll get to the point of 'fuck it', but I'd prefer it to happen sooner, rather than later...



Estring -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/19/2007 11:10:32 PM)

How is that patronizing? You are discriminating against men because of their color. That should be enough to get you over it. If you choose to see it.



pollux -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/19/2007 11:12:27 PM)

Maybe this isn't a problem as much as it is you've just discovered where one of your limits is?

I haven't found a lot of people who agree but I tend to think that expanding limits isn't the unvarnished good a lot of people seem to think it is.  It sounds to me like a part of you is bothered by this, and maybe that's ok.



Misstoyou -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/19/2007 11:45:08 PM)

Keep in mind that having a black submissive does not have to have anything to do with historical slavery.

I had a wonderful black submissive in my collar for over two years, who I did deliciously horrible things to without any guilt. We are still good friends. [:)] I didn't select him because he's black, and I never asked him if he approached me because I'm white. (Though he did say he never envisioned himself ending up with a Domme from the 'burbs. lol)

We didn't engage in race play, though I can't tell you that race never made a difference in what I did or did not do. (I didn't call him "boy" for instance.) I did what I felt comfortable with, and I trusted him to tell me if he wasn't okay with something.

You should give yourself permission to select the individual you want regardless of race, because by doing so, you'll be giving the lucky guy what he craves as well.

** edited for a more precise word




Caius -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/20/2007 12:09:09 AM)

Perhaps keep in mind that, historically, every shade of skin has come under brutal influence of organized slavery and, in fact, continues to suffer under it today.    So if you're going to base the viability of submissives upon such a superficial aspect as their sharing a phenotype with former slaves...I'm afriad you'll have no prospective partners whatsoever.    But I have to confess to sharing Estring's confusion; if you are consciouslly aware of how nonsensical the correlation you are making is, where are you still hung up?  From what little I've seen, I don't share the impression that you suffer from "white guilt."   Rather I think you more likely are just have some nerves in this respect.  If you feel you are thereby costing yourself good potential connections, there's really nothing to be done, I would think, but to get to it.    If you're looking for a complete roadmap, you're not likely to find one that accurately meets your needs in a  remote ananlysis here.   The only solid piece of advice I feel I can give that might be of use to you here is that you might consider approaching the situation for the first time in a smaller, more intimate venue (if available), as I suspect the crowd affect might be a part of your block -- that is to say, you don't mind being in the dynamic so much as you're worried about being seen it.

All of this said, I doubt this is a rare phenomena; I'm sure many a white domiant has felt some unease when, say, they apply a whip to a person who happens to be black for the first time.    Honestly, I'm trying to be helpful, and I hate to go out on deragotory note, but how qualified could you possibly be to "educate" others on their own latent racism if you're as succeptible as this to such hang-ups? Well, I suppose it could be worse; at least your phobia is of a relatively benign nature, but I still think it reflects a lack of appreciation for the form, scope, and persistence of market slavery.


quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

Maybe this isn't a problem as much as it is you've just discovered where one of your limits is?

I haven't found a lot of people who agree but I tend to think that expanding limits isn't the unvarnished good a lot of people seem to think it is.  It sounds to me like a part of you is bothered by this, and maybe that's ok.



pollux also has a point.  Personally, this is one of the last areas where I'd be inclined to exercise this descsion, but he's right in that not everything needs to be deconstructed. 



ripples -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/20/2007 2:37:02 AM)

Communication seems to be the key to solving so many 'issues' that come about in life in general, never mind the D/s dynamic. Speaking with a potential sub about both your desires, fears and boundaries I'm sure would go along way to alleviate the discomfort you may have. Then baby steps, take it slow, just like you would anything new.

Just to illustrate;  I was anxious about my first encounter with a much younger than me sub. I really didn't want to hurt him and wasn't sure of how much he could stand, both physically and mentally, so we talked and I made it clear that I would take his assurances at face value. We took it slower than either of us would have ideally liked, but it was a great experience and I feel we both learnt a lot from it without risking any damage on either side.



MstrssPassion -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/20/2007 4:59:14 AM)

yes there were horrors that happened but it didn't happen to every slave

try keeping that in mind

history also speaks of slaves who were treated no differently than family... history speaks of slaves who stayed with owners even after becoming free because they were treated well... they had property to call their own & were often educated by those who owned them

Yes there was a lot of bad but not every slave owner treated their slaves in the horrible fashion the is often depicted (worst case scenario)



mnottertail -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/20/2007 5:04:49 AM)

Read 'Before the Mayflower' by, Levrone Bennett, Jr.

Slavery as practiced in and around the era that led to the civil war bears no relations to slavery as it has existed from time immemorial.

Had the wanton waste and destruction of humans as it was practiced in those days never happened, I think slavery would be legal and widespread today.

Ron

oh, yeah...it wasn't a black white thing before that, it was all directions.



thetammyjo -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/20/2007 5:30:46 AM)

I have had a similar problem myself but it only seems to arise when the man himself makes a deal out of being treated like he's on a southern plantation or even worse because he's black and I'm white so he MUST be a slave (shudder). That's the same problem I have when someone who is Jewish tells me he wants to be treated like he's in a concentration camp or being forced to convert by the inquisition (shudder).

Now while I can intellectual understand these fetishes they are a complete turn off to me and frankly it is a limit.

That's my historical problem I guess you'd say.

My other problem is that I was sexual assaulted by a black man my sophomore year of college (not rape, I fought back and got away). It took me a few years and some good friends I already had who were black to get over that initial defenses-on-high reaction.

All of this said there really more whites in the scene than other races even in really big cities. We had a panel discussion once at Conversio Virium about being black and kinky and that panel of 2 women and 2 men taught me a lot what they felt were extra hurdles they had to deal with to be kinky.

Anyway, the question for you is: How do you change your gut level reaction?

I'd say you should get to know several people in the scene community as friends who are different racial, ethnic, or other backgrounds than yourself. Get to know them and learn about why each of you are attracted to this.

Then maybe do some self-reflection on what submission and SM means to you. Do you only have negative reactions when it involves blacks or other groups or in general?

I learned in a great class I had in college that all of us (in the USA that is) are fully aware of racial, sexual, and other stereotyping. On the gut level reaction it affects our feelings and our decisions. Taking time to step back and evaluate those is the first difference between someone who is racist (sexist, whatever) and someone who is not. It can be very hurtful to learn that you know and believe at a gut level all those things when you don't see yourself as racist or sexist or whatever -- knowing them at that level is a result of the culture you are raised in, it does not mean you are a bad person merely that you weren't raised in a vacuum.

Why did I type all of that? Because you may discover that on a gut level you are reacting to some ideas about blacks that when you look at them may make you uncomfortable. It's ok, in fact I'd say it was great if it makes you uncomfortable, because it means you are doing the work necessary to help you figure out why you are reacting the way you don't like and that's the first step to changing.

Good luck.



ladyleopard945 -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/20/2007 5:46:16 AM)

I have had discussions with many slaves.  Some are said to be born to the mentality other just connect to it but my thought is that it is a KARMA issue.  SO to accept that itis a karma issue it would be wise to say that not only for them but you as well to work it through and accept it for what it is worth.  I look at all as humans with a soul that has to be fullfilled not the package they come in....age body type color... We all have issues and needs I might be Domme but I do take care of what is mine!

HOW did I get past it.  I do not look at the Package of the soul I look at the soul.  Take them by the hair or head depending on what is there (love it either long or shaved) and look into the eyes have them breath deep and slow read their soul. All the body is ...is a canvas of our work... that we feed the soul and ourselves on.

I miss dearly my black slave and he was not a extreme pain slut.  YET he served me well.  He left for a job out of state that is one thing I could not  say no to him.  We are still good friends.....   I truely wish to replace him but it has been a long process.

DO not deny yourself the possibilities of personal growth.....  Just stop looking with the concept of body and look to the soul.

Leopard



MistressRouge -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/20/2007 6:53:39 AM)

I totally understand your reservation. I am of mixed parentage Myself black and white heritage, and I had a black sub approach Me for session. The majority of My subs/slaves and players are white male.
 
I had an uncomfortable feeling when considering this black male sub for session, and I did not know the full reason why. Nothing whatsoever to do with slavery days and history persay, for I believe what is past is past etc.
 
I truly believed it was the fact that I had not sessioned with a black male submissive, nothing cultural or strange, just the fact I had not before.
 
I must say, it was a wonderful session, and him being a novice also, a memorable one.

I have met black male subs on the scene that only play or session with white Dominant Ladies/Mistress's.
 
I believe it is all down to personal preference sometimes, by the way I have more feet/foot devotees from a egypt/turkey/dubai and the far east, interesting! [:)]



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/20/2007 7:50:02 AM)

Racial guilt is a very common thing. What you have to remember is that it wasn't YOU that owned slaves against their will. That can be hard to do. I suggest that you find a black man who can both be a friend and a bottom for you (not necessarily a sub from the beginning). Someone that you can discuss all this with on a rational level. Play with and talk to them about how it made you feel as part of YOUR aftercare. I'd avoid those who want to serve you simply because you are caucasian (or whatever race you are).

Master Fire



ElanSubdued -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/20/2007 2:11:45 PM)

abytchgoddess4u,

I tend to agree with Ripples who is essentially saying "take baby steps".  You already know what the problem is.  As you pointed out, you're quite capable of analyzing yourself and recognizing why the way you're feeling is irrational.  That said, sometimes the things we feel *are* irrational even though we can analyze them.  It seems you want to change this in yourself so yes, I think ripples has an excellent idea.  If there is a boy who is black and who turns you on, why not play with him a bit?  The first time may feel a bit odd, but once you've shared some positive experiences, perhaps you won't feel that you're being disrespectful and/or somehow symbolizing history.  Seeing his joyful, loving gaze starring back at you might help you feel better about this.

While this might sound like a strange thing to recommend, if you know a black boy well enough in friendship, why not sit down with him and talk about your feelings?  I don't think your friend would find this disrespectful.  On the contrary, you're showing concern for an awful time in history where black people were treated atrociously.  Talking this out with someone who is black might help you see some different perspectives.

Just some thoughts.  I'm not sure if these will be useful to you.

ElanSubdued.



abytchgoddess4u -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/20/2007 3:21:58 PM)

There have been some wonderful points made and I appreciate all the suggestions and advice. I think the only way to get past it is to do it...slowly.

I think ladyleopard, Misstoyou, MasterFire's and TammyJo's examples are going to feel best to me. Figure out where within me are the very specific boundaries(as in not calling him 'boy' or engaging in race play) and then work it from there. Btw, TammyJo, HOLY CRAP on the concentration camp thing!! I've never run into that and I hope I never do...Goddamn.

But, I have to say that I have numerous friends and acquaintances in the scene who are of many different ethnicities. I have no issues with playing with other races...though if a nice Jewish boy came and asked me to be his Nazi guard, I'd run screaming. I do have a thing for nice Jewish boys though...~mmmmm~

I do have very good communication with my subs, do not play casually, and very rarely play in public...so this is not a matter of random strangers or other peoples' judgment...it's simply an irrational blockage...~baby steps~ is a good idea.



abytchgoddess4u -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/20/2007 3:36:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caius
But I have to confess to sharing Estring's confusion; if you are consciouslly aware of how nonsensical the correlation you are making is, where are you still hung up?  From what little I've seen, I don't share the impression that you suffer from "white guilt."   Rather I think you more likely are just have some nerves in this respect.


I agree with you, I don't think I suffer from white guilt. Particularly so b/c I'm Canadian and we have very little history of slavery. The racism we have historically perpetrated has been against Natives and I have no issue playing with them. In addition, my background is Irish and Jewish, so my ancestors have been victims of the same thing.

I don't know exactly where I'm still hung up...which is why I asked for help.[:)]
quote:


Honestly, I'm trying to be helpful, and I hate to go out on deragotory note, but how qualified could you possibly be to "educate" others on their own latent racism if you're as succeptible as this to such hang-ups? Well, I suppose it could be worse; at least your phobia is of a relatively benign nature, but I still think it reflects a lack of appreciation for the form, scope, and persistence of market slavery.


As I mentioned, the work I did was back in university, around 14-15yrs ago. And I think; if anything, that has given me a greater perception and understanding of slavery, which is where this is originating. After all, true slavery is STILL widespread in our world and most of us don't acknowledge it...let alone give a damn or make any effort to either educate ourselves and others, or speak out against it.



abytchgoddess4u -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/20/2007 4:01:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

yes there were horrors that happened but it didn't happen to every slave

try keeping that in mind

history also speaks of slaves who were treated no differently than family... history speaks of slaves who stayed with owners even after becoming free because they were treated well... they had property to call their own & were often educated by those who owned them

Yes there was a lot of bad but not every slave owner treated their slaves in the horrible fashion the is often depicted (worst case scenario)


I'm sorry, but I find this to be really offensive. I'm sure your intent was not to denigrate the experience of those who have been in slavery...or their descendants but the fact is that it was horrific for most involved.

Even the ones who were treated 'as family' were torn from their own children and families, separated from their community, country, and Continent. They were exposed to illness/seasickness, starved,  physically/sexually/emotionally abused all throughout their journey...and then paraded publically and sold to strangers, with whom they could not communicate. Add to that the additional abuse many suffered once they were brought into a household and we are not exactly talking a 'sweet deal'.

If anything, I'm sure the reason a lot of them stayed after slavery was abolished was b/c of Stockholm Syndrome.



Caius -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/20/2007 10:50:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Read 'Before the Mayflower' by, Levrone Bennett, Jr.

Slavery as practiced in and around the era that led to the civil war bears no relations to slavery as it has existed from time immemorial.

Had the wanton waste and destruction of humans as it was practiced in those days never happened, I think slavery would be legal and widespread today.




I'm sorry, as to the first point...completely, entirely, categorically false.    Slavery has many times risen to the level of brutality (and even higher) that was employed in the American plantation system.    The Roman coloni (imported foreign slaves and domestcs who lost their freedom when they could not pay off debts that were deisgned to cull labour from the poor) were treated in a way that makes even the horrific lot of American slaves look tame by comparison;  for example, there was never an occasion following a slave rebellion in America when so many slaves were crucified at once that, depsite being spaced only a few yards apart, the stretched for miles along the roadways.   Turkish galley slaves, flayed alive until they expired in pools of their own blood, feces and urine and then cast over the side?  The indigenous peoples of the Bahamas that Columbus and his expedition worked to death trying to mine gold so that his expedition would not be seen as a failure (a very real concern for him at the time).    The countless thousands of slaves estimated to have died in the construction of the great "wonders" of Egypti?  Jewish slave labour in conquered German territories during the Nazi reign?    I could go on all night without the need to seek out a single reference, just using the most superficial and well-known examples.   For that matter, you don't need to look into antiquity to find such examples; today, many people around the world  toil under circusmtances hardly improved from these.

But I think I see what you are getting at.    There's something fundementally different between slavery on the small-scale, acculturated level and the slavery when it becomes a major component of economy.   And the larger the trade, the more ghastly the way in which the slaves are utlaimtely treated.   So I have to disagree with your second point as well -- in the modern context, slavery, if legal, would almost certainly follow these exact patterns once more. 



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