RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice?

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MHOO314 -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/23/2007 12:29:48 PM)
If I may for a moment---My esteemed colleagues, She did not come here to discuss the history of slavery or dispute its political correct or incorrectness---She came here to say that because of something psychological, She cannot take on a certain sub of a certain type---had She come here saying She had a psychological aversion to fat subs, we would all be responding to her with advice---- Now given that----I do not see it any different than a reaction to a submissive who has perhaps had a battered childhood---we all have feelings and emotions we have to deal with--I might suggest that you not jump into a "scene", but if you find someone that interests you---have a vanilla meeting---lunch, dinner---talk about the D/s aspect---I am sure that in no time, you will be able to separate yourself and see it as D/s and feel that "hotness' again.

domiguy -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/23/2007 12:30:00 PM)
Racial role playing can be a hoot!!! I often take elaborate steps in preparing myself when it comes to defiling slave lakeesha.....For instance, Here is a before and after shot of me....It is just one of many characters I utilize in our role playing adventures.

Caius -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/23/2007 12:36:25 PM)
Yeah...off-hand black-facing jokes...that's what we need to calm this thread down....

thetammyjo -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/23/2007 12:37:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Caius And on a last note, no serious student of history really thinks they can observe the past without subjective bias, so most don't play at pretending they are going at it without judgment (morale or otherwise). I'd like to know what discipline of history you work in (and have done research in?) that you've been able to hold to this illusion. First can you tell what it is you think I've been arguing? I don't think you have understood me at all but it has became so bogged down that I can't decipher even what you think I've said. I'm thinking you have tried to move this discussion to a level of deeper investigation of case by case situations which was not what I was talking about nor appropriate, in my opinion, for this particular thread. In a graduate seminar or a meeting of scholars, it's great to to discuss these things but that's not here. Second, just a side note but colonii are not sytems of importing slaves. It refers to the system of settling veterans on land in recently conquered areas. These veterans and their offspring are the the colonists. My field is ancient Mediterranean history -- I study two primary things in this field: gender and slavery. I've taken two undergraduate and two graduate level courses on comparative slavery. Have you read Orlando Patterson? He is the starting place for every class on this subject I have ever taken. I will be the first to say he has some problems but is a good solid foundation for people starting to learn about slavery around the world and across time. As to this: "And on a last note, no serious student of history really thinks they can observe the past without subjective bias, so most don't play at pretending they are going at it without judgment (morale or otherwise)." -- Actually a serious student of history if aware of her biases and works hard to try and allow those to color her research. As I have said I can apply my ethics and morals to history but I do not believe that is what a good historian should do.

domiguy -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/23/2007 12:39:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Caius Yeah...off-hand black-facing jokes...that's what we need to calm this thread down.... Anything to help...Now back to our regularly scheduled flames!!!

thetammyjo -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/23/2007 12:44:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 quote: ORIGINAL: MissSCD MistressPandora: Don't worry about this at all. It is nothing new between us. We disagree on everything to disagree upon. Most of the time I ignore what she says. Back to doing that. Regards, MissSCD *Bolded by me. That is the reason you misunderstood her words. TammyJo I wish you had not been misunderstood as you made good & valid points. Alas that is the nature of the forum, once an assumption is made in text it seems to become fact. Thanks. I got an email that pretty much explains that for at least one person this is all about the fact that I am poly. Though what that has to do with any of this I don't know. I just personally think it's sad when someone can allow what are personal consensual choices to close their minds to anything else someone might say. I'll go back to my original post in this thread and stuck by my recommendation that the OP reflect on her feelings and talk to black people about this and learn from them. I don't think she needs to change because I don't see anything innately wrong with anyone feeling they have a limit or feeling anything about something else. The OP though asked for advice on how to address these feelings. Others tried to make it a more historical discussion and I perhaps foolishly jumped in because it's history and something I know. Though others strongly disagree.

Caius -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/23/2007 1:29:17 PM)
Well, I'm willing to share your sentiment that the subject has become too muddled and perhaps should just be dropped. As to what it was that I perceived to be the main principle of your argument, I addressed this in my last post to you and I don't think I can say it more explicitly, but I'll try to summarize: What I objected to was your endorsement of the concept -- arbitrary and, again, anachronistic in my eyes -- that there is a fundamental divide in the nature of slavery as practiced by European traders and that which preceded it. Anyway, it does hinge on some rather fine distinctions that perhaps do not warrant five posts each, back-and-forth. Three, undoubtedly, but perhaps not five. ;) Let's just let it rest; I've said it several times on these boards before; what we seem to agree on appears to outweigh that which we seem to disagree on, I'm content not to let the smaller points disagreed upon overshadow the positions we share. I do want to quickly note however, that you're mistaken on the meaning of colonii. The semantics suggested by the phonology of the word's root, "coloni-" may be misleading you; this root has passed into English (and many other languages) with the meaning you gave it -- colonization -- but at the time in Latin it pretained to agriculture foremost. Colonii were a kind of agricultural slave labourer. They were comprised both of foreign captives and domestic debtors (amongst whom the veterans you mentioned could be counted) and they were typically placed to work on large farming complexes that were largely concentrated on the Italian peninsula, although sometimes located just beyond the fringes in conquered territories as well. By the time these slave farms had become prominent, the practice of settling soldiers in the manner you described was already more or less abolished. It was, in fact, a precursor to the debtor system that allowed many of these unfortunates to be dragged into slavery to begin with.

thetammyjo -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/23/2007 1:58:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Caius I do want to quickly note however, that you're mistaken on the meaning of colonii. The semantics suggested by the phonology of the word's root, "coloni-" may be misleading you; this root has passed into English (and many other languages) with the meaning you gave it -- colonization -- but at the time in Latin it pretained to agriculture foremost. Colonii were a kind of agricultural slave labourer. They were comprised both of foreign captives and domestic debtors (amongst whom the veterans you mentioned could be counted) and they were typically placed to work on large farming complexes that were largely concentrated on the Italian peninsula, although sometimes located just beyond the fringes in conquered territories as well. By the time these slave farms had become prominent, the practice of settling soldiers in the manner you described was already more or less abolished. It was, in fact, a precursor to the debtor system that allowed many of these unfortunates to be dragged into slavery to begin with. Since you asked for my credentials would you give me yours? I ask because what you've said above is in complete disagreement with every book, study, and Roman professor I've ever had (or read in the case of books/studies) who has addressed this issue. Caesar is settles colonii on the old site of Carthage -- these are his veterans. Where did you get your information? I'd love to look at an article that says something different from what I've learned -- the only way to grow.

MHOO314 -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/23/2007 3:32:02 PM)
*Gees people, the Lady asked for advice not political diatribe-----My small piece of sound advice got lost here in all the off thread discussions.*

Aswad -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/23/2007 6:10:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy I'll pass, personally. I can think of people who said "oh it's just a work program, they're fine" before. I mean to say that "done right, it can be a good thing". Historical mistakes do not invalidate a concept. That said, history does tend to repeat itself. People rarely do things right.

Aswad -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/23/2007 6:16:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo I was refering to other threads where folks have said "Don't you wish slavery were legal?" or "Don't you wish slavery never ended?" or "I live just like slaves did in X civilization". That's what I call romanticizing it. Ah, yes. That is romanticizing, I'd agree. Historically, slavery has not been done in an ethical fashion.

Aswad -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/23/2007 6:29:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 For the OP, julietsierra posed a good question in post #50. "Are you more worried about offending him or about appearing offensive? I think the differences between these two ideas is important to consider et al". That's really very astute, and I've been wondering why no answer was forthcoming. Quite often, people are more worried about the latter than the former. My suggestion should work for both, though. Nice to get back on topic.

subordinance -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/24/2007 2:51:31 AM)
Abytchgoddess4u, Reading your post and the responses has been quite an education for me about something I never had even considered might make a Domme's life more difficult than a sub's. I am white and once served a black Domme. I now realize that it was extra rewarding for me because of the opposite psychological effect. Before reading completely through this thread, I might have considered also determining that you should maybe just not play with black men. Then somebody compared it to a hesitation to play with subs who had been battered in childhood. I admit that I never knew Dommes struggled with these issues. I did not just assume Dommes were colder or more callous than that, but I just hadn't completely given this full thought. I am actually pleasantly surprised, but also much more wary, realizing that Dommes think like this. I can see an irrational trend starting that will only lead to nobody playing with anybody. What next, never humiliate somebody who had suffered under a school bully? Subs will be scrambling like mad to prove their psychological soundness- "please beat me as my life has been nothing but peaches and comfort up until this point! I promise!" A sub can't do this. Nobody can. Life is not that perfect. So I now realize that I can't just advise you not to play with black men, because the black subs who want so badly to serve you would then also want to strangle me. This now goes down as another item on the list of things I can get that they can't have. Maybe as you allow these men to serve you, it might be best to keep in mind that there are many happy white subs out there, and you are evening the paying field some by warming yourself up to this and sharing yourself. If submission were an unhealthy psychiatric response to one's history, it would only be fair (and wise) to never play with anyone, cause that definition would have to apply to all subs. Otherwise, it is a form of sexual play completely independent of a sub's past, making them all equally deserving of a chance to be able to live out their fantasies. Perhaps especially those subs who have struggled in the past. You do have that power.

FullfigRIMaam -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/24/2007 6:49:15 AM)
So has the discussion helped you or changed your position in any way abytchgoddess4u? It's true that you shouldn't force yourself past a limit of yours, but if you enjoyed dating interracially before, I would imagine it would become equally enjoyable within a D/s context once you got through the first steps of getting comfortable dominating the man who seeks just that from you. As to whether some people you're dominating suffered a worse form of slavery/treatment at the hands of another is not the point here, so nothing to add there. I hope all the supportive comments have been helpful though in your decision to try it out. M

cleaningsub -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/24/2007 9:13:35 AM)
i actually had to deal with this from the other side. i am a black male who found out he was submissive. i thought about the whole slavery thing and wondered if it was wrong for me to feel this way. i finally came to the fact that this is a choice for me. No one is forcing it on me so it is ok. BDSM is much different from slavery in that fact. It is a choice not something forced on someone. Even when you are in a scene you have the power to stop. That's the difference "choice".

subordinance -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (7/25/2007 12:38:33 AM)
I was thinking about this further. You are probably not just some white Domme to the men who wish to serve you (you must keep in mind that they are choosing you as an individual, here). I found myself entranced with a black Domme when I was not even seeking such a relationship with anyone. I was already under her spell before any chance to think the matter over. Then, of course, I realized "this is going to be interesting." It was! It will be different, but in many ways a learning experience which will help you both to understand eachother better. And this may help you understand eachother's races better as well. Part of the reason men and women may get along as well as they do, despite the fact that men dominate in the corporate world, is probably partially becauses we play such games with eachother so we have gained understanding, as well as appreciation, for eachother. Men may seem more sincere sometimes in helping women gain equality than whites seem in helping blacks. Your willingness to play a game so intimate with black men will probably lead to better understanding of them, which might lead to better relations with black individuals in other contexts as well. I also want to explain that I have been there with wondering if I was wrong to enjoy something that turned me on. Everyone on these message boards talks about their favorite superhero shows they watched as children, like Batman. My favorite for the D/s fantasies was the TV show Starman. At the time, I knew nothing about the Holocaust. I was a blonde-haired, blue-eyed child who didn't realize there was anything wrong with saying, "Wow! Isn't Agent Fox cool? He's my favorite character!" The alien and his son fully resembled humans (save being kinder, smarter, more idealistic). When people on the show would ask Paul Forrester (the alien), "The National Security Agency is after you. What have you done?" He always told them, "they're not after me for anything I've done. They are after me for who I am." The show made it clear that this could get him in a lot more trouble than anything he could ever do. All fans admitted to enjoying the scene where Fox finally caught the alien: Forrester: Where's Scott? Fox: (chuckling, amused to self) Don't worry. I'm as interested in finding your offspring as you are. Forrester: I don't think so. Fox: (accusing) Really? Do you have that much contempt for the people of this Earth? Forrester: (defeatedly, angry) No. Fox: Did you think we wouldn't recognize the danger to our species in allowing him to grow up? Forrester: (astonished) He's a child! Children are the hope of your species, not the danger! Fox: Earth's children. Human children, not your alien seed. How many more of you are there out there? How deeply have you infected us? How many will have to be excised to save our planet? Forrester: (angrily) After all these years, is that really all you want to ask me? The conversation clearly communicates to Forrester for the first time that Fox's intention is to kill him. And his son. To put the icing on the cake, Fox manages to catch Scott without his father in a later episode. As Fox enters the room, Scott's face drops with the dispair of meeting death. Fox: Hello Scott. I'm George Fox. Scott: (defensively) I know. What do you want? Fox: (amused smile) Well Scott, everyone tells me you're a very bright boy. I'm sure you can figure out an answer to that question. Scott: (innocently) No! I just came to check this place out, really! Fox: (still skeptically amused, but more serious) Well... maybe when your father gets here he can fill you in on what you don't know. Scott: I haven't seen my father in a long time. He just took off one day, he just split. I don't know where he is. Fox: (shakes his head and laughs. Pointedly) Yes you do, Scott. And so will I very soon. But, until he gets here, why don't you and I get acquainted? As a child, I loved these scenes. I watched them over and over. Then I grew up and realized that there had once been actual nazis who claimed they had to rid an entire race of people as a means of "national security", and even an infamous speech by one leading nazi indicating the threat that innocent Jewish children posed. "We can't take the risk that they will grow up and seek revenge on behalf of their parents." Was it okay for me to enjoy this show? More importantly, was it okay that Fox had been my favorite character? The nazis were clearly horribly disgusting, not sexy. I could reconile this with the fact that I had personally identified so much with the alien (even getting my own silver sphere for Christmas). I was a sub, so I got to be the innocent one who would never hurt anyone. Because this situation is delicate, I highly recommend you discuss it with your subs and find out how each of them feel, and how seriously they wish to be dominated by you. Naturally, you don't want to traumatize them or bring them to feel even worse about the white race in general. But if they seem sincere, then feel free to play with them. All children know that nothing bonds like a healthy game of pretend play.

dcnovice -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (10/6/2007 8:39:26 PM)
quote: If anything, I'm sure the reason a lot of them stayed after slavery was abolished was b/c of Stockholm Syndrome. There's also the key question of what other realistic options freed slaves had.

dcnovice -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (10/6/2007 8:58:07 PM)
quote: Historically, slavery has not been done in an ethical fashion. Might that be because it's inherently unethical?

Domisub111 -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (10/6/2007 9:52:45 PM)
It's tough to overcome boundaries and, in a large way, that's part of d/s. But this is consensual play - often with mutual reciprocity - and by choice. It is not forced. Who knows? You just might find the right relationship for your needs, regardless of color, age, or whatever.

flowspen -> RE: Racial Issue...Any Advice? (10/7/2007 9:07:24 AM)
i struggled with this issue alot. Feeling guilty for not submitting to a Black Mistress or for submitting to a White Mistress, guilt about wanting to do race scenes ect. What helped and worked for me was doing what your doing here. Talking to others about it, getting there thoughts, telling Mistresses about it and having deep discussions about it. In the end i realized i was accepted and i realized it was ok for me to me. Thats the wonderful part of BDSM it is more inclusive of differences than it is exclusive. i think You will find many black subs who will want to submit to you and maybe even explore this touchy subject with you.

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