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RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 3:21:39 PM   
GhitaAmati


Posts: 3263
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks LaM...see I new I shoulda taken the time to make sure I was right about something before posting it...heh...

Ok, so screw the fact all my facts were wrong...anyone got any thoughts on the idea?

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 3:22:34 PM   
michaelOfGeorgia


Posts: 4253
Status: offline 		short response: i've always been opposed to the draft

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 3:23:19 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		It is not a matter so much of how many as much as the "rules" you can't have one side with 12oz boxing gloves and the other side with baseball bats and that is the real handycap our men are under, like in Vietnam.   

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 3:26:04 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		I agree once they had the lottery (#244, basically undraftable) I dropped out of collge and sighned up.  Then had to fight ot get in due to my flat feet! 

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 3:28:58 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Not sure what you are refering to, I agree with everything you said about how badly military people are treated and that something needs to be done in particular to make the lives of junior enlisted better.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to GhitaAmati)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 3:31:56 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with your thought about the good joining the military would do a lot of kids.
I refer you to Hienliens Startship Troopers  where you could not vote or hold office unless you had served a tour of duty in the military

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 4:10:40 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

You're wrong about China.
Israel does it though.


Norway has a 12 month mandatory service time for all males 18 years of age. Airforce does 24 months. Pacifists serve 16 months in the medical units, or community service if principally opposed beyond pacifism itself. Fail to show, and you can theoretically be put in jail for about 50% longer than the maximum sentance for murder.

I think drafts like this fits the bill for non-consensual slavery, albeit time-limited.

Had they given me a choice, I would have signed up and made a career in there.

Since there wasn't any choice, however, I would rather take the rifle to my assigned CO than anyone that he pointed me at. As it was, I managed to get a medical exemption, so nobody died. A former colleague of mine lobbed a grenade at his own CO, though now he's a designated marksman (reserve). Not sure if non-drafted armies have to put up with that kind of thing.

Just to top it off, the one time we really needed the army, they gave up, and instead the people organized a militia, intelligence service and so forth on their own. Worked a lot better, too. While we don't have handguns in Norway, some places have more than two rifles per citizen on average. My nephandi's uncle never commented on it, but he had a swastika-marked Luger .22 in his drawer from the occupation.

O.T.: This does mean there are a lot of civilian AG-3's around here, as well. Regular G-3, but with a repeater, more or less. Heavier than the M16 et al, but pretty well ignores cover the target may be hiding behind, and is reasonably accurate and reliable.


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We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 4:19:59 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

We have reached the point where we have three options, either pay the military a LOT more in order to attract more volunteers, reinstitute the draft to meet recruiting shortfalls, or pull our army out of the rest of the world and only use it for small skirmishes since downsizing has made our military too small for prolonged major combat.

None of those choices are popular so politicians facing an election year will try to weasle away from doing any of them.



I hate war. There aren't enough words in the dictionary to describe how much I hate war. I have a nine year old son and the thought of him spoiling his life for war infuriates me. No war, please.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 4:21:27 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Or, we could start pulling our Troops out of the 130 countries that they are in now.
We've had 37,000 Troops in S. Korea for (54) Fifty Four years now. How much is enough?
And yes, we need to pay people in the Military A LOT more money than they get now!
It's a "Profession" and they should be paid comensurate with other professions.



And it's a first: but I agree with popeye here. Except (and hence the 'edit') I don't see why military personnel should be paid more than nurses, teachers or others that perform a public service. I think the army would be very useful if it was deployed more widely for civilian purposes (storm Katrina springs to mind: where were the guys when they were needed, aye?).

In France, my brother was a 'conscience objector'. He refused to go. He had to serve 24 months in a local administration, filing paperwork. He had a ball. And I love him for not having played the army game.

Yet, he is one of  the most courageous man I know. He would put his life in jeopardy to save somebody he loves: he is a man. He doesn't need to belong to a squadron to fight for what he believes in.

As for the French Legion... I was born in Marseille: enough said, right?

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 7/21/2007 4:31:19 PM >

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RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 5:03:48 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

You clearly bested me there sidesteping the fact that it would neatly get everyone you disagree with out of the debate and that it is like that only people in the welfare system (either as workers or recipiants ) have the right to discuss the matter.

Come up with something new that argument was worn out during Vietnam


How so? Aren't there PLENTY of Treasonous Bush Supporters over the age of service?

Hell, O'Reilly's audience's AVERAGE age is 71!



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RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 5:05:18 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

It is not a matter so much of how many as much as the "rules" you can't have one side with 12oz boxing gloves and the other side with baseball bats and that is the real handycap our men are under, like in Vietnam.



No, the invasion and occupation of Iraq is doomed to miserable failure because it is built on a foundation of LIES.

Since it's constructed of shit, all it can EVER BE is shit.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 5:06:26 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I agree with your thought about the good joining the military would do a lot of kids.
I refer you to Hienliens Startship Troopers where you could not vote or hold office unless you had served a tour of duty in the military


If you recall the text, the military also wasn't a bunch of undisciplined rapists and murderers.

Of course it also neglects the basic futility and demoralization caused by using COMBAT TROOPS for occupation duty.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 5:06:41 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

Any independent military unit will eventually become corrupt.



There are those who think Blackwater and Halliburton are already corrupt.

Sinergy

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 5:12:52 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		 
The party or congressperson which proposes a draft will be committing political seppuku.

Congress can refuse to give AnencephalyBoy more money, he gets the same money he had the previous year.

Congress can vote to cut funding.  AnencephalyBoy vetos it.  He gets the same money he had the previous year.

Congress has to vote to reinstitute the draft.  I dont see it happening. 

What you see here is a Mexican standoff.  Our soldiers pay the price.

Sinergy

p.s.  Dont get me wrong, I am not sure drafting more soldiers so they can pay the price is a workable solution.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 5:16:11 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		HERE IS THE REASON THERE WILL ***NEVER*** BE A DRAFT.

You might draft a faggot.

As long as there exists the TINIEST chance of inducting a homosexual, and since you've inducted him/her, needing to permit them to honorably serve, just like any other person.

It is NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

Nice going homophobes, you're keeping them slut Bush daughters safe from combat!

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/21/2007 5:17:52 PM >

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 5:34:25 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		I started reading this thread, but gave up when it became yet another  fucking partisan fuck fest...you know fuck bush...no fuck the Dems...when the fuck are you americans going to learn that there are more than 2 possibilities, there are shades of grey, not all black and white...until then fuck it, your opinions are worth squat

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 5:36:33 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I started reading this thread, but gave up when it became yet another  fucking partisan fuck fest...you know fuck bush...no fuck the Dems...when the fuck are you americans going to learn that there are more than 2 possibilities, there are shades of grey, not all black and white...until then fuck it, your opinions are worth squat


Thank you for that scintillating insight, Arpig.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 5:39:24 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		You are welcome

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Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 5:48:09 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

The party or congressperson which proposes a draft will be committing political seppuku.


Not sure I'd say there's anything honorable about proposing a draft.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 6:08:07 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


Posts: 514
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline 		Kittin,
I'm not encouraging warfare. Our country happens to be in one of our leaders' making so realistically we need to make choices on how to either conduct it or end it. Clearly the majority of American's want it over. Convincing the current administration of that is another matter.

In no way do I wish to see your son grow up with this current war still unresolved.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 40
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