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RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 6:14:17 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		You convince them by sending Federal Marshals to arrest them after indictment for the crimes committed getting Congress to approve the AUMF-Iraq.

Of course, you need Federal Prosecutors who *aren't* "Loyal Bushies", and thanks to the Neocon Party Whore's infiltration of their Fundamentalist Christian Loonies into the positions where the Federal Prosecutors are hired and retained, they've purged the DOJ of anyone not Ideologically and Politically Reliable.

Think of the Christian Crazies working for Bush like the Commission for State Security.



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(in reply to HaveRopeWillBind)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 6:21:15 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

The party or congressperson which proposes a draft will be committing political seppuku.


Not sure I'd say there's anything honorable about proposing a draft.



Unless ending one's political career is an attempt for an elected representative to gain his or her honor back.

Please substitute the word "suicide" for "seppuku"

Sinergy

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(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 6:28:58 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		There is nothing honourable about suicide, the rites of seppuku made it formalized yet no less dishonourable

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 6:29:32 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


Posts: 514
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

You convince them by sending Federal Marshals to arrest them after indictment for the crimes committed getting Congress to approve the AUMF-Iraq.

Of course, you need Federal Prosecutors who *aren't* "Loyal Bushies", and thanks to the Neocon Party Whore's infiltration of their Fundamentalist Christian Loonies into the positions where the Federal Prosecutors are hired and retained, they've purged the DOJ of anyone not Ideologically and Politically Reliable.

Think of the Christian Crazies working for Bush like the Commission for State Security.




Fargle,
You forgot, "and has taken over control of the Supreme Court."

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 6:31:56 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Meh. I'm less concerned about the Supreme Court ( Is this the same Supreme Court that ruled in Dred Scott? ) , than the independence, honor and integrity of the DOJ.

Remember "A Few Good Men"? We HAD "Good Men" serving, but there honor and integrity was inconvenient for the Alleged-Felon-In-Chief

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 6:33:47 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I started reading this thread, but gave up when it became yet another  fucking partisan fuck fest...you know fuck bush...no fuck the Dems...when the fuck are you americans going to learn that there are more than 2 possibilities, there are shades of grey, not all black and white...until then fuck it, your opinions are worth squat


well there are a few people in here who vote 3rd party tho it may not be obvious in the debate


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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 6:37:41 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I started reading this thread, but gave up when it became yet another  fucking partisan fuck fest...you know fuck bush...no fuck the Dems...when the fuck are you americans going to learn that there are more than 2 possibilities, there are shades of grey, not all black and white...until then fuck it, your opinions are worth squat


well there are a few people in here who vote 3rd party tho it may not be obvious in the debate



I would be one of those. 

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 6:40:48 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		RO, I realise that, but you have to admit that american political debate very quickly degenerates into RepDem demonization. I personally think the 2-party idea is the worst thing that has happened to US democracy. The plurality of parties found in othe mature democracies (UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France) allows the electorate a real choice, rather than the false "Us-or-Them" of traditional US politics. Personally I say power to you in the US who are independants, you have the right idea...to bad the system is rigged against you

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 6:49:33 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Even as there's talk inside the Pentagon of extending the troop surge in Iraq well into 2008, the U.S. military remains in a vise, crushed between the demands of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that have made recruiting more difficult. Right now, there are only two real ways to extend or even increase the surge: call up more reservists - always tough to do in an election year - or extend active-duty combat tours from the current morale-wrecking 15 months to an even more painful 18 months. But Marine General Peter Pace, outgoing chairman of the Joint Chiefs, reassured GIs in Afghanistan this week that 18-month combat tours are not, as has been rumored, in their future. "An 18-month tour has zero, zero, none, nada, squat, nothing, no validity, OK?" he said. "I want to make sure you got that."


So then what about the third, most controversial option - is it time to reinstitute the draft? That option has a certain appeal as the Army fell short of its active-duty recruiting goal for June by about 15%. It is the second consecutive month the service's enlistment effort has slipped as public discontent grows over the war in Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070721/us_time/restoringthedraftnopanacea


What's interesting is that the only people pushing for a military draft are far-left Democrats. And the only reason for doing so has nothing to do with expanding the military, it is the belief that a draft would further lower morale and public opinion to a point where the war will end. That's their hope.

The reason we dont have a draft today? The Pentagon doesn't want one. Generals and pentagon officials have testified in front of Congress and so far they have all said consistantly that there is no need for a military draft.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 7:06:39 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		nevertheless, we have no need of a draft, we are winning the war of attrition. 

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 7:15:11 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline 		(fast reply)

The draft should not be reinstated. It should remain volunteer. However, I believe the recruits should be:

1) Paid at least twice what they are paid now, and probably three times

2) Provided with 100% medical benefits for the duration of enlistment anywhere the serviceman chooses to select his/her medical care

3) Provided with 70% (of service-pay) disability income for life with cost-of-living increases, for dismemberment and other war-related disabilities.

4) Provided with 2 million dollars (in today's current dollar value) of life insurance, for service-related death. 

All income and benefits should be paid by the industrial complex that profits from war.
~
 
The idea that boys from families earning 100K or more should be drafted is totally absurd. I personally know families earning in excess of 100K that are against the war, and against war in general.

Now if we're talking about boys from congressmen families and from families of CEOs of the military-industrial complex... well... then I wholeheartedly agree.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 7:19:27 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

RO, I realise that, but you have to admit that american political debate very quickly degenerates into RepDem demonization. I personally think the 2-party idea is the worst thing that has happened to US democracy. The plurality of parties found in othe mature democracies (UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France) allows the electorate a real choice, rather than the false "Us-or-Them" of traditional US politics. Personally I say power to you in the US who are independants, you have the right idea...to bad the system is rigged against you


It is rigged here against independents, it seems, they make it hard to get in the debates, etc....
 
Just curious, how many major parties are in Canada? I'm trying to get an idea of how things are spread out among them.

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(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 7:26:13 PM   
subfever


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Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

RO, I realise that, but you have to admit that american political debate very quickly degenerates into RepDem demonization.


It's amazing what careful indoctrination can do to the masses.

quote:

Personally I say power to you in the US who are independants, you have the right idea...to bad the system is rigged against you



Hey Arpig... I didn't know you had a penchant for understatement...

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 7:44:19 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		At present we have 4: The Liberals, the New Democratic Party, the Bloc Quebecois, and the Conservatives (I am not sure exactly what their name is anymore..the reform party merged with the progrsive conservative party, and I think they are now officiially the alliance party...but they are effectively the conservatives). In addition we have any number of fringe parties..green, Rhino, Action democratique, natural law, communist, marxist leninist, alberta first, social credit, etc. etc.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 7/21/2007 7:46:07 PM >

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Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/21/2007 7:59:02 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks, Arpig; I'm looking at their websites now.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/22/2007 6:44:05 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

The party or congressperson which proposes a draft will be committing political seppuku.


Not sure I'd say there's anything honorable about proposing a draft.



Unless ending one's political career is an attempt for an elected representative to gain his or her honor back.


Ah, good point.

Still, that's kind of like cutting random passerby to test the knife first, even if you know this knife is sharp.

quote:


Please substitute the word "suicide" for "seppuku"


Why? I cannot imagine this means of committing it will be any less painful, any less of a bitter pill, or any less of a bloodbath ... and you did realize I was mostly joking by taking a metaphor too far here, right?


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/22/2007 6:49:51 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

There is nothing honourable about suicide, the rites of seppuku made it formalized yet no less dishonourable


List of invectives deleted for the sake of civility and interesting debate.

What constitutes honor?
What points make suicide incompatible with honor?
Would you say that the rites of seppuku affect any of these points in any way?
(A lot of common objections are actually addressed, if you think about it.)

Feel free to move that to PM instead. But I'm still bringing my d20's.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/22/2007 7:02:48 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

nevertheless, we have no need of a draft, we are winning the war of attrition. 


If the US is the enemy, then, yes, you are winning the war of attrition.
If the non-terrorists in the world are the enemy, then, yes, you are winning the war.
If terrorists and counter-insurgents are the enemy, then, no, there is very little progress.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/22/2007 7:11:25 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		American sarcasm at work again here, Aswad.

This was an oft repeated line by LBJ and HHH  in the time of the Vietnam confict, and went  along the lines of:


We seek no wider conflict (in terms of escalation (parens mine)), we are winning the war of attrition.


Well, we know how that went.

(by the way, I favor your first postulate, at this time.)





< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/22/2007 7:12:39 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Restoring the draft - 7/22/2007 7:14:26 AM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Here's an idea, not that it would be popular.  Open the military to those who are in prison for non violent crimes.  They serve the rest of their sentence at war instead of in prison.  Back in the Vietnam era and before that as well, for many young men it was prison or the military.  Most chose the military. 

Benefits-I never met anyone who did not come back much improved in terms of their outlook on life.  Prison doesn't have that effect.  You turn someone out who is worse than when they went in. 

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 60
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