RE: Old Guard? (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 2:46:31 PM)

quote:

what exactly is old guard


Isn't it a deodorant? No wait, that's Right Guard. Never mind.




Rover -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 3:35:25 PM)

Fast reply to no one in particular:
 
First, much as Master Fire mentioned, "Old Guard" refers to a people in time, not to any principles, protocols, etc.  The "Old Guard" did not call themselves "Old Guard"... a term that was intially a derisive reference to the older members of the Leather scene who were exclusive in nature (exclusively gay and exclusively male) at at time (the 1970's) when Leather was undergoing a transition towards inclusion (including heterosexuals, including women, including lesbians). 
 
And while there were no universal principles and protocols that did (or do) define someone (or something) as "Old Guard", they did tend to share some common general themes:
 
1.  They had a shared experience in the armed forces, and their resulting organizations did tend to have a fairly rigid armed forces type heirarchy.  One aspect of that did often require that a member entered the scene as a bottom and based upon length of service, quality of service (including service to the community) and skill sets, they earned the opportunity to become Tops or experienced bottoms.  In other words, their organizational structure had the same meritocracy they were familiar with from their armed forces experience.
 
2.  They used America's growing fascination with the motorcycle to establish motorcycle clubs as a kind of "cover" for their S/M activities, and to skirt some of the existing legal prohibitions and impediments to any assemblage of gay men (for example, some laws considered any gay male in a bar to be there for the sole purpose of soliciting prostitution and others prohibited more than three gay men from socializing together at a single time).  Naturally, motorcycle enthusiasts wore "leathers" for protection, giving rise to the early use of "Leather lifestyle" for WIITWD.  Later use of terms like BDSM were coined to be more inclusive, and distance the lifestyle from its early gay roots.
 
There are some other elements that are extensions of that shared military background, but much like today the "Old Guard" was comprised of many discrete groups operating in relative isolation from one another (there was no internet in those days), making any assertion of an "Old Guard" style rather laughable.  As has been mentioned, anyone purporting to be "Old Guard" that is not in their seventies or eighties and gay is likely to be an outright liar.  It's possible to be younger and heterosexual and still be "Old Guard" trained (ie: trained by someone who actually was "Old Guard"), but that's one individual training another individual about their personal preferences, protocols, etc.  Any inference that there is (or was) an established "Old Guard" custom, rules, etc. that can be trained is an utter falsehood (read: lie).
 
By necessity, this brief post is woefully incomplete.  It's impossible to pile several decades of history into anything short of a (researched) non-fictional novel and I have neither the time nor inclination.
 
John

P.S. - I always recommend Joseph Bean, Jay Wiseman, Guy Baldwin, Jack Rinella, Gayle Rubin and a few others as credible authors/historians for those interested in learning more about this period.




DarkDaddyZ -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 4:02:47 PM)

"To Love, To Obey and To Serve" by Viola Johnson is a great book about a trip through time from a leatherwomyn who lived elements of protocol that is deemed "Old Guard" today.

Many riducle Old Guard protocol or ways as much as many riducle Gorean.  I am fond of the protocols and traditions of those who practiced Old Guard then and practice it today.

Also, when someone under 50 says they are Old Guard, I may say "Oh really?" But if I meet someone who says they believe in and were taught protocols from someone from the OG era, they've probably peaked my interests.  Though it's commonly believed that Old Guard is gay white male leather protocol, there are people of different genders both Tops and bottoms that practice elements.




Rover -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 4:10:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkDaddyZ

I am fond of the protocols and traditions of those who practiced Old Guard then and practice it today.


I'm as curious as anyone else... what are those traditions and protocols?
 
John




Alumbrado -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 4:12:36 PM)

quote:

Fast reply to no one in particular:
 
First, much as Master Fire mentioned, "Old Guard" refers to a people in time, not to any principles, protocols, etc.  The "Old Guard" did not call themselves "Old Guard"... a term that was intially a derisive reference to the older members of the Leather scene who were exclusive in nature (exclusively gay and exclusively male) at at time (the 1970's) when Leather was undergoing a transition towards inclusion (including heterosexuals, including women, including lesbians). 
 
And while there were no universal principles and protocols that did (or do) define someone (or something) as "Old Guard", they did tend to share some common general themes:


That is my understanding as well... but fast forward to today, and labels are there for the cutting and pasting, and 'self identification' is the karaoke of the BDSM world.

The term has now been co-opted to mean 'My leather pants took 4 weeks to get here in a 5X size'.[;)]




DarkDaddyZ -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 4:13:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
]

I'm as curious as anyone else... what are those traditions and protocols?
 
John


Johm has anyone ever told you that your picture looks like JR Ewing or a sober Larry Hagman?

Anyways, actually I think that there are various protocols and traditions and it depends on who you ask and who you learn from but I like the formal leather dinners and socials and even collaring ceremonies and rituals too.




Rover -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 4:21:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkDaddyZ

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
]

I'm as curious as anyone else... what are those traditions and protocols?
 
John


Johm has anyone ever told you that your picture looks like JR Ewing or a sober Larry Hagman?

Anyways, actually I think that there are various protocols and traditions and it depends on who you ask and who you learn from but I like the formal leather dinners and socials and even collaring ceremonies and rituals too.



Actually, several people have said something similar and oddly enough we share the same birthday.  But since Larry is 75 years old, has had a liver replacement, and is quite bald these days, I'm never sure if the analogy is flattering.
 
I do not mean to seem argumentative over the "Old Guard" traditions, but I was hoping you could be more specific.  I'm fairly well versed in the topic, spent a bit of time speaking with both Vi Johnson and Jay Wiseman on the topic this past weekend, and cannot imagine early Leathermen attending a formal dinner (gay or not) or participating in something like the "ceremony of the roses".
 
John




octavia -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 7:46:17 PM)

Thank you all.
I wanted to understand a bit better where the reference comes from and why people toss it out there.  I'm a bit embarrased to ask this but what does WIITWD  stand for?




SimplyMichael -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 7:57:53 PM)

what it is we do




Archer -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 8:44:51 PM)

The "Formal Leather Dinner" stories have that kernnel of truth to them that all good myths have. There most certainly were dinner parties amoung Leather People, and you can be sure they were based on "Dinning In's" from the shared military service background. Now Dinning In's are not what most people thik about as "formal" They are fun ties where formal manners are practices on pain of penalty. Point of Order Mr Vice. The Chair recognizes Archer I have just witnessed the most horrid display of poor manners by Mr Rover. I witnessed him place his napkin on the table and then return to his chair after excussing himself to the facilities and place his napkin back in his lap. As all Gentlemen of refinement know a napkin never returns to the table until after the meal has been finished so that the other guests don't see scraps of food or smudges on it. Mr Rover how do you plead. Guilty Mr Vice I lost my mind and did not pay attention to detail and throw myself on the mercy of the court. We the court find you guilty and being mercifull sentance you to a mear 3 fingers from the grog bowl.

Now doesn't that sound much more in keeping with the rough and tumble image of a bunch of Leathermen than some boring formal dinner. LOL







Rover -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 8:47:18 PM)

Keep your fingers outta my grog bowl.
 
John
 
P.S. - Sorry about the napkin thingy.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 9:00:31 PM)

Yeah I was talking with my partner yesterday and, as always, you have to wonder how much of the activist history was intended to be such, or how much of it was just a bunch of guys wanting to have their own space, wanting to fuck like they want to fuck and it just becoming what it became due to the need to form a more solid union.




awmslave -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 10:44:28 PM)

I consider "old guard" practitioners having two major priciples:  strict protocol and no switching. I personally value these principles. 




chellekitty -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 10:46:45 PM)

what is strict protocol?
does serving as a submissive or bottom before becoming a Master not qualify as switching? or is it only switching multiple times? hmmm




slavegirljoy -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 11:15:11 PM)

You can read an article that addresses this on the Masters And slaves Together (MAsT) website, http://www.mast.net/intl/mfharr/mfh001.htm

GUARD IN FOCUS
by bob harris
January 1999 - A Brief Introduction


Copyright © 1999 by bob harris.  All rights reserved.
This work may not be reproduced in whole or in part
without the written consent of the copyright holder.
This page was last updated on August 11, 2005.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David




chellekitty -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 11:21:56 PM)

thanks for the response...my point in posting what i did was not to say it didn't exist...but to challenge those that preach it without knowning anything about it...that would be like me getting up in front of a congregation and telling them what the bible says...
going to the website to look at the rest of the article...
chelle
ps. did you contact bob harris to get his permission to post the section of the article in this forum?




LadyHeart -> RE: Old Guard? (7/23/2007 11:33:32 PM)

People always seek to legitimize their practices by inventing a pedigree for them, compounded from a mix of fact and fiction. A comparable thing is happening within the wiccan community. It is equally laughable when people take it too seriously.  People love "secret society" myths. It makes them feel special. It's great to have ideals, but let's get real - it's more fiction than fact.

:))
LH




Rover -> RE: Old Guard? (7/24/2007 4:40:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHeart

People always seek to legitimize their practices by inventing a pedigree for them, compounded from a mix of fact and fiction.


That is an interesting phenomena, but one that I have observed time and again.  Evidently they lack the self-assurance to simply rest upon the fact that they enjoy what they enjoy, and feel the need to manufacture something special in order to rationalize it.  Of course, a good many are simply relying (in good faith) upon what they are told by others which turns out to be false.
 
John




Grlwithboy -> RE: Old Guard? (7/24/2007 5:18:09 AM)

Actually one of the values I encountered was respect for longevity in the scene over insta I'm a Dom respect - the notion that junior tops have more people to impress than senior bottoms. Could be the people I hang with, but I don't dislike this approach that much. I found this attitude among people who were trained prior to internet explosion, commonly, and who ID as queer versus straight most of the time, and I like it.

And when I'm talking about experience I mean experience in leather and in actual sadistic/masochistic skillset, or service and slavery, not picking what color undies your slave wears while she brats you into beatings.  I'm sure that's valuable in many relationships, but that's not necessarily my value system.





Archer -> RE: Old Guard? (7/24/2007 5:32:20 AM)

Always glad to see someone discover boy bob Harris, who died March 29, 2002 there are more of his writtings out there than just those on the MAsT site though and they are worth reading.
I personally miss both boy bob and Master Doug who is retired to a nursing home following a Massive stroke last year.
Master Doug certainly had a big influence on me personally.




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