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Rover -> RE: Old Guard? (7/24/2007 9:17:46 AM)
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ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati
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ORIGINAL: Rover
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ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati
John, in all honestly....really studying Gor is actually a hobby of quite a few "leathermen" I know...there are enough similarities to make it an interesting read. Sometimes I wonder if it isnt natural for hetero's who are interested in Leather but cant really find a place for themselves if their local community is primarily gay male still....to automatically lean towards Gor. Ive seen it often enough but I dont know if I can really say there is a corrolation.
I would find that argument more compelling if there were more real time Gorean communities. In fact, they're scarce.
I apologize, I didnt mean they went and found more real time communities, I only meant I see alot of newcomers who are interested in the protocols and structure of leather, also study and read quite a bit on Gor
This is how things get a bit confused. We're mixing the documented factual history of a group of people with the fantasy that has developed about them online with a series of fictional books. What's the old Sesame Street song? One of these things is not like the others.
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As for the "Marine Corps" values vs. Leather values....remembering that military played a key role in shaping the original "Leather" communities, is it a shock that they would be similar?
That would be a much stronger intuitive argument, and there is ample documentation to suggest that they placed great value on honesty, for example. But then, so does the local gardening club. There's nothing that suggests their moral standards were any higher than any other group of people who associated with one another.
At the time, probably not...but now, do you really think moral standards in society as a whole are the same now as they were back then? Thats part of the "romanticized" things of "Old Guard". Same as folks dream about courtly knights and chivalry. Im not saying I know whats going on in the minds of everyone out there, just what Ive seen in my one small community here in Florida. Do I think the Leather community was built "Around" those values? No, they were just a part of those men that came naturally. But now, its part of the draw.
I think you touched upon two distinct issues here. First, you quite adequately expressed the human propensity to romanticize "the good old days". And rarely does that overly romanticized version accurately reflect the realities of the time. But second, this is another example of portraying BDSM and its participants as somehow "better" than the rest of society. More honest, more communicative, more trustworthy, etc. And the truth is that's just a bunch of hogwash. It may be an enjoyable fantasy, but it's still a fantasy. I know you don't buy into it, but many do for a variety of reasons.
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It's true that their shared military experience was pervasive in their lives. Many of the local rules and customs (note that they were local in nature and therefore not identifiable as representing "Old Guard" as a whole) dealt with appearance (or "uniform" in a military sense). I seem to recall that Guy Baldwin listed about fifty rules in his local scene, and about 48 of them were specifically related to appearance. I'm sure someone can come up with the specific passage, but as I am at work I don't have the time right now.
I do know the passages you are reffering to, and Ive had alot of peope comment on it, after reading some of the "leather" writings, notice that a good bit was on dress and apperance...and other common courtesy things like introductions and they always ask..."there has to be more to it doesnt there?" My answer always is that the rest has to be learned from your experiance and not out of a book...but then im a smart aleck on most days anyway
Well, for what it's worth I think that's good advice. Though it's a double entendre, and likely that the second meaning will elude them. It's obvious meaning is that you have to live the lifestyle and make it yours; uniquely yours to suit your personal needs and tastes. But the second, more cryptic, meaning has to do with the specific historical context of their question. They're surprised that there isn't "more" to it (ie: the "Old Guard"). And their understanding of that history will only come with personal experience, with the "wisdom" that comes with the passage of time. And that wisdom will reveal that the people fill in what they consider to be blanks with "something more" that never existed. It's like reading a novel, and writing extra chapters because the reader feels that the story is incomplete. That may be rewarding to the reader, but that's not the real, unadulterated story.
John
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