RE: Old Guard? (Full Version)

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chey -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 6:07:37 AM)

Oh that's right!!!! I am so ditzy at times!



SimplyMichael -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 7:18:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdventurousLife

I think this is a perfect example of the hetero bdsm community--- straight male doms bashing the gay leather tradition without knowing the first thing about it.


I think this is a perfect example of the hetero bdsm community--- straight male doms not getting sarcasm nor knowing the first thing about it. 



GhitaAmati -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 7:56:03 AM)

yea Michael, how dare you be a sarcastic male on these boards...shame on you!



MadRabbit -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 8:08:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdventurousLife

I think this is a perfect example of the hetero bdsm community--- straight male doms bashing the gay leather tradition without knowing the first thing about it.


I'm pretty sure its just one guy making a joke.

Generally speaking, when the "Old Guard" gets poked fun at on these boards, it isnt connected to the actual traditions themselves, but the people who like to make the outrageous claims to being part of that "Old Guard" and create even worse misconceptions of what that "Old Guard" really is.

I've taken some time to learn about Leather history, but my knowledge pales in comparision to Rover's and Archer's so dont feal a need to contribute the loose information that I have.

We also poke fun out of many other things...like...people who lump everyone into categories like "heterosexual BDSMers" and "gay BDSMers" and bash with generalized insults.

Edited To Add : I think Michael does know something about it and I think he knows that certain people like to make the claim to being "Old Guard" just to "be cool" when they dont have any idea what its about.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 8:16:22 AM)

I know, considering how many men I have played with and the fact that I play in San Francisco alongside actual gay men, none of whom would ever call themselves "old guard" made it rather amusing. 



MadRabbit -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 8:41:47 AM)

To me, the difference between an "Old Guard style" dominant and a dominant who says "I am Old Guard" is like the difference between a white kid who simply dresses and talks like a "gangsta rapper" and a white kid who goes around to EVERYONE and says "I am a gangsta rapper!"



ownedgirlie -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 8:46:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Generally speaking, when the "Old Guard" gets poked fun at on these boards, it isnt connected to the actual traditions themselves, but the people who like to make the outrageous claims to being part of that "Old Guard" and create even worse misconceptions of what that "Old Guard" really is.


Bingo.  My Master once introduced me (online) to a girl he had just begun talking to, a year or so ago, who claimed to be raised and trained in the "Ancient European Old Guard Gorean ways" that were never documented and only secretly passed down through generations.  To boot, she wrote of the beautiful romantic ways  in which these ancient, gorean old guard Masters pampered their slaves...bathing them by candle light, etc....

I asked her a few pertinent questions about it and poof - off she disappeared, never to be heard from again, once she learned I am real time with him and what his expectations are of me.

So yes, there are many folks who toss these terms around in a romanticized fantasy.  Maybe it sounds cool to them.  Maybe it's what they'd really like to experience.  But quite often it's a bit of hogwash, which results in people automatically scoffing when they hear such terms.



BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 9:05:28 AM)

"To me, the difference between an "Old Guard style" dominant and a dominant who says "I am Old Guard" is like the difference between a white kid who simply dresses and talks like a "gangsta rapper" and a white kid who goes around to EVERYONE and says "I am a gangsta rapper!"

MR there it is in a nut shell, if you are lucky to find an old guard member that really is then you are a fortunate one for most have gone off to that big dungeon in the sky...WE consider our self "OF the old guard", its mixed with some Goran principals and the ol' English style of disciplian...honor, protocols rituals, a deep commitment to our way of life,I am not out to bash anyone just try to keep them on a straight path smile..bounty



MadRabbit -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 9:27:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

MR there it is in a nut shell, if you are lucky to find an old guard member that really is then you are a fortunate one for most have gone off to that big dungeon in the sky...WE consider our self "OF the old guard", its mixed with some Goran principals and the ol' English style of disciplian...honor, protocols rituals, a deep commitment to our way of life,I am not out to bash anyone just try to keep them on a straight path smile..bounty



Personally, I have a lot of respect for the people who follow these traditions.

The few people I have considered mentors regarding M/S have all identified as Leather.

When I poke fun of these things on the boards, its meant on the lines of "Cant take all of life too seriously".

Sometimes I wish I could be a part of the deep sense of family and honor that I see in Leatherfolk, but in the end, I realize its not for me.

I'm simply too much of a free thinker =)



AdventurousLife -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 10:04:01 AM)

You are all presuming that "Old Guard" is a term only used by people who are fakes. Rover has labeled genuine old guard traditions as "fantasy".

I'm sure in the heterosexual BDSM community (and yes, its quite distinct from the gay community-- well, except in san francisco maybe) there are lots of people who spread a bunch of bullshit under the "old guard" label.

But there's been no shortage of manuer spread in this thread---and what prompted me to speak up was hetero males and females bashing gay traditions when they clearly do not understand the culture.

Old Guard is a label that invokes a set of qualities. It may be used by fakers, but it surely invokes a more specific set of qualities than the label "Dominant".

And "Dominant" is use by more fakers than "old guard."

Thus should we all reject out of hand anyone who calls themselves a "Dominant" as many have advocated for those who use the term "old guard"? (And in my experience people who use the term do not generally say they were part of the original old guard-- as has been erroneously assumed, thus the fact that the originals didn't call themselves "old guard" is irrelevant. )

I am amazed at how intolerant and judgmental people on these forums are... and predictable, actually, so to cut that response off at the bud: All I am saying is don't bash a tradition simply because it isn't yours. And if you mean to bash fakes, note that no distinction has been made-- and the assumption has been made that nobody can legitimately claim this tradition.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 10:21:18 AM)

Wake the fuck up dude.  Nobody is bashing gay men in this thread, least of all me.  What we are doing is mocking people like yourself who set yourselves up as "protectors" as well as mocking the idiots who claim to be old guard and yet fuck women.

Climb down off your high horse and notice it is a jackass.



AdventurousLife -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 10:23:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I know, considering how many men I have played with and the fact that I play in San Francisco alongside actual gay men, none of whom would ever call themselves "old guard" made it rather amusing.


This is a disingenuous copout on a couple levels. You get to remain "above the frey" but you dishonor yourself by refusing to respond to my point as it was, and instead engaging in the very same behavior you were lampooning in the joke in question: one upmanship.



AdventurousLife -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 10:25:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Wake the fuck up dude. Nobody is bashing gay men in this thread, least of all me. What we are doing is mocking people like yourself who set yourselves up as "protectors" as well as mocking the idiots who claim to be old guard and yet fuck women.

Climb down off your high horse and notice it is a jackass.


I have never set myself up as a "protector". I'm merely defending the tradition you are bashing. But that you would tell such a lie is typical of your core problem-- you refuse to respond to what I have actually said and instead attempt to bash me by telling a lie about me.

And by failing to distinguish between the pretenders and the people who genuinely practice this tradition-- you are not mocking the "idiots" you are mocking all who use the term. Including the genuine practitioners of the tradition, or what its become.

You are the one who is engaging in one-upmanship and being snide here. I am just trying to get you to treat people with respect.

But that you had to say I'm "setting myself up as a protector".... shows a level of dishonesty that is impressive-- you've stopped being above the fray and shown your true colors. And they are not pretty. And while this should be embarrassing and humiliating to you-- I would rather that you had chosen to respond to my argument as it was , instead of choosing to bash me with your lie.




ownedgirlie -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 10:30:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdventurousLife

You are all presuming that "Old Guard" is a term only used by people who are fakes. Rover has labeled genuine old guard traditions as "fantasy".


I do not know who this "all" is you are referring to.  MadRabbit made a very clear point that the reason Old Guard often gets knocked is because of those who misuse the term for their own agenda.  I gave an example of my experience with someone who did that.  Neither of us said everyone who claims to be Old Guard is a fake.  We simply said we came across fakes who left a certain impression.

This is in no way saying it's a term only used by fakes.  It means there are fakes who use the term which coincidentally gives the term a bad name. 

I think you have grossly misrepresented our point.



AdventurousLife -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 10:36:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
This is in no way saying it's a term only used by fakes. It means there are fakes who use the term which coincidentally gives the term a bad name.


Except that people have not been making that distinction and have been saying things like "i assume anyone who uses the term is not connected with reality..." etc.

While others have defended the tradition here, those who have attacked it have in their posts presumed that it can never be a legitimate term, and justified this with the claim that "the originals didn't use the term"... which is illogical because that doesn't mean its not a legitimate term for a tradition.

And finally, dominant is a term that is used by fakes, and thus that term should have a bad name too-- you cant' say that "old guard" is a better indicator of fakehood than "dominant". (At least not in my experience) Frankly, far more wannabes know about the term "dominant" and adopt it (or "Master") than "old guard"... to use the term "old guard" you have to at least do some research....

then again... maybe not, maybe enough people in the het community use it that people latch onto it without understanding what it means. But hell, that's true of so many terms that it makes weeding thru profiles here (and threads on the forums) difficult...

Part of the reason this is the case, ironically, is that there is no consistent tradition for the lifestyle community, and thus no real set of agreed definitions. And even confusion on some very basic ones (which results in all these threads about switching.)






ownedgirlie -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 10:45:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdventurousLife

Except that people have not been making that distinction and have been saying things like "i assume anyone who uses the term is not connected with reality..." etc.


Maybe some did.  Certainly not all.  Certainly not me.

quote:


While others have defended the tradition here, those who have attacked it have in their posts presumed that it can never be a legitimate term, and justified this with the claim that "the originals didn't use the term"... which is illogical because that doesn't mean its not a legitimate term for a tradition.


OK so some have defended it.  Which is contrary to your claim that "all" of us are presuming all Old Guards are fakes.  And that was my contention - your accusation about "all" of us. 

I did see the post about Old Guards not using that term.  I didn't see it as an attack.  I saw it as simply saying they didn't call themselves that because...well...they weren't "old" at the time :)   No harm, no foul.  A lot of subcultures are referenced by different names over time.  But my issue was that your use of "all" was a misused absolute.

quote:


And finally, dominant is a term that is used by fakes, and thus that term should have a bad name too-- you cant' say that "old guard" is a better indicator of fakehood than "dominant". (At least not in my experience)


I'm not sure how long you've been reading the forums.  Your number of posts indicates you are relatively new to posting, but you've been a member of CM since 2004.  Surely you have seen "Dominants" being criticized left and right around here...same with "Masters" same with "submissives" same with "slaves" same with "Goreans"  same with "switches" same with "Daddies".....see where I'm going?    There are posers everywhere.  Be true to yourself and pay no mind to the nay-sayers.  And if it truly disturbs folks to see their particular area of delight criticized, I say formulate a good, solid, non-criticizing argument with the hopes of enlightening others, rather than adding to the heap of insults that pile up around here.

Thank you for reading my posts and taking the time to answer.





AdventurousLife -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 10:52:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Maybe some did. Certainly not all. Certainly not me.


On that score the point goes to you-- you didn't paint with too broad a brush in your example, it was a specific example, and while I wasn't really responding to you (or intending to) the use of the word "all" was broad, no doubt.

quote:

I did see the post about Old Guards not using that term. I didn't see it as an attack.


I didn't say it was an attack, but it was given as a justification for painting with the broad brush accusing all who use the term of being fakes.



GhitaAmati -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 11:08:06 AM)

I dont think anyone here, least of all Rover, said that "Old Guard" was nothing but fantasy. No one I read tried to undermine a very important part of BDSM history or "put down" the traditions and protocols of Leather. What I read out of this thread was a bunch of folks who had different Ideas of what old guard was, but all respected it enough to know that no one who is 30 and sraight can claim to be "Old Guard". Truth of the matter is, I dont know any gay men in their 70's in my Leather community who would claim to be Old Guard either...and there are a few here locally. In the past 10 years Ive helped to bury several other gay men who were very close to me. All of these men came right out of WWII and into what became the "leather" community, to anyone from the outside looking in, they would be described as "Old Guard".......I am the last person around to say that old guard doesnt exist......I think it is very possible to be trained by men from that era, or trained by men who were trained, etc...but I dont think anyone can "claim" it, the men who actually could claim it wouldnt, and those that do claim it are all too young to be able to.

Leather today has become very, "pansexual". There are sraights and bisexuals, lesbains and gay men, and even a few transexuals in my local community. We all claim a love of the traditions, history, and protocol of what has become known as the "old guard", some of us...most of my community in fact, has been trained by 70 year old gay men, but none of us would dare use that label on ourselves or our households.



chey -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 11:12:27 AM)

Actually my only point was that I would rather get to know someone by talking. Since we are at CM I am assuming that if the profile is marked as Male Dominant then he is a Male Dominant. He doesn't have to tell me that. If he feels the need to continually tell me how dominant he is or how Old Guard he is (just comparing the two as you did) then I am going to lose interest. Maybe it has simply been my "bad" experience that the majority of men I have met who claim Old Guard have  flaked out on me one way or another so I tend to stay away from that type of profile. Really my preference no matter what my reason. I'm certainly not bashing anyone though.



chey -> RE: Old Guard? (7/26/2007 11:14:06 AM)

Oh, and SimplyMichael that reply was not to anything you said, not sure how that happened, still figuring my way around here.



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