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RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 5:07:18 AM   
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All men over 50 should take drug to lower cholesterol, says heart expert

· Blanket prescription of statins 'would save lives'
· Caution urged by British Heart Foundation


Polly Curtis, health correspondent
Saturday July 28, 2007
The Guardian



Every man over the age of 50 should be on a daily medication of cholesterol-lowering drugs to protect against heart disease and stroke, the government's heart tsar said yesterday.  Roger Boyle said that blanket prescribing of statins should also apply to women from 60 or 65 to reduce the hundreds of thousands of deaths a year from cardiovascular diseases. He acknowledged that such a move would lead to accusations of a "nanny state" and that people would resist being medicalised from the age of 50 or 60.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,,2136543,00.html

There have been studies that show statins give women NO BENEFIT. Arrrrrrgghhhhh!!

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to SaintAllie)
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RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 5:16:14 AM   
Aswad


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SaintAllie,

It is my impression that there are three highly relevant points in regard to your original post:

(a) Worldwide, many people are not medicated who should be, while many are who should not be.
(b) USA appears to medicate a higher percentage of the population, in general.
(c) USA appears to have a higher incidence of polytherapy (multiple drugs).

Those are my experiences with the matter, whether on-line or off-line.

I do not chalk it up to the corporations, as the pharma companies have profit levels that are comparable to other industries, so unless you consider all companies inherently unethical, there is no practice the pharma companies can be accused of that actually raises their profits above what you'd expect under the definition of "business as usual" for any field.

However, the US seems, from talking to workers there, to have a lot less tolerance for illness in practical terms, and a lot less room for people to become ill, particularly with anything chronic. There appears to be very limited social economic thinking. That could probably account for a higher incidence of people seeking help.

Further, judging by US media, and making the admittedly somewhat apples-and-oranges comparison to my own country, at least, they are significantly more emotionally labile, or at least significantly more inclined to show it. Many of the ways one will see people express emotions in US media are, relative to the context, such that we view it as I imagine US citizens would see fainting in the same context. This may also account for more people seeking, or getting help. It would certainly make it easier for the doctor to notice, although it might also mask other clues.

Anyway, my 2 cents on that.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to SaintAllie)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 5:30:10 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

other than life is easier if you take a few pills.


Common misconception, and one that unduly stigmatizes those who need them.

A sugarpill will do as much for people with nothing wrong with them as a medicine will.

Due to concerns about potential abuse, drugs who actually make a big difference are not allowed, unless they have horrendously discouraging side-effects, or are very risky. This is a simple fact. Otherwise, amineptine (Survector) and others would be the drug of choice for depression, for instance, rather than schedule 2. If one wants the phasic dopamine boost that amineptine provides, high-dose MAOI therapy is the only legal route, which carries page upon page of contraindications, warnings, interactions and "for emergency care personell" sections.

quote:


Big pharmaceutical companies push it to the docs who push it to the patients.


If so, that is a flaw in your corporate culture, not specific to the pharma companies.
Have a look at their stock, and compare it to similarly sized companies.
Comparing budgets and so forth is also quite enlightening.
Which is not to say they are really ethical.
Just that they're not exceptional.

quote:


the patients are smiling cause they are pumped full of happy pills.


Having spent a decade in a state of clinical major depression, I can say with confidence this is not so. I also suspect I know the pharmacology of what you condescendingly and with unbounded ignorance refer to as "happy pills" significantly better than you do, or even your doctor.

And I know very well that many people are medicated who are not suffering from any clinical illness; this is irrelevant, as it's just a pacifier in those cases, with no real effect other than giving them some side-effects and increasing the risk of osteoporosis in the long run. The drugs used for this group of "patients" do not have any effect on anyone without a specific imbalance that even a lot of the actual patients don't have, it's just a way to get them out of the doctor's hair, and give them something other than prayer to derive their placebo effect from.

Beyond that, my personal feelings about your choice of words prevents constructive dialogue at this junction.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 5:31:14 AM   
pahunkboy


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just abour everyone i know is on a cholestoral pill!!!!

$5 helllllllllllllllllllllll. thats cheap.   range of prices here vary from town to town. ox goes for $50 in nyc.

i follow the regiment as i think it would delay heart bypass....

as far as pain clinics- dont waste your time. they do physical therapy- or a TENS unit.

during the actup aids activists -protests- we now have an fda fast track approval for pills.    my dr was anything but codeine type- so i was on that vioxx neurontin crap.  at least we KNOW what codeine is and doesw!!!!

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RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 5:35:42 AM   
Aswad


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nyrisa,

Inaccurate analysis, IMNSHO. Suffice to say that the fault is fairly equally shared between patients and doctors, unless you want a more thorough analysis.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to nyrisa)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 5:38:27 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And anyone who thinks big pharma isn't in the business to make *money* has rocks in their head.


Obviously. They are compelled by law to maximize shareholder profits.
But so are all other openly traded companies.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 5:48:12 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SaintAllie

Arbitrary?


No, there's clear politicial and financial motivations between the distinction.

quote:


expanding it into " self medication' is a red herring..


Not really, as evidenced by the research. Onset of illness tends to predate the onset of drug abuse, with the exception of alcohol, where the sequence is reversed. The point is that people who start using drugs, other than alcohol, usually do so because they do not get proper medical care at an earlier point in time, and because the war on drugs (and hence the distinction between legal and illegal) prevents the use of certain drugs that would be useful in the course of therapy for some patients, thus making proper medical care illegal for some patients.

To cover some of how people's prejudices entirely miss the point, and wholeheartedly embrace ignorance as a "point of view", we can take the example that many people ignore the point that the risk of drug addiction in people with ADHD is halved when they are treated with CNS stimulants. No, this does not bring their risk down to the baseline, but it does halve it, as compared to leaving them unmedicated.

Hardly a red herring.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to SaintAllie)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 5:54:51 AM   
Aswad


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Level,

A lot of such recommendations are frequently made.

One of the more reasonable ones, is that otherwise healthy people above the age of 35-40 should use about 2.5mg selegiline (Eldepryl, Selegiline, etc.) per day, as it reduces the risk of developing Parkinson by about 80%, along with a significant (though I can't recall the figure) reductionin the risk of developing Alzheimers. Both of these are, after all, just a question of how old you are. Genetics change when they set in, but with no prophylactic treatment, they will set in, eventually.

Of course, a lot of people think it is desireable for old age to entail mental deterioration and physical ailments, and an even larger number of people think old age should not be postponed. Oddly enough, both groups are dominated by young people, i.e. those who haven't a clue what they're talking about. But prophylaxis against geriatric illnesses must usually be started early, so by the time they change their minds, it's usually too late.

That aside, there's a lot of snake-oil and regular consumer-centric marketing all around, of course.

If one falls for it, that's just social darwinism finishing up a match with final score Darwin 1 - Idiot 0.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 6:00:35 AM   
SaintAllie


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...We can split hairs into infinity.

.my red herring isn't your red herring..we are going to have to agree to differ..because this was a different conversation earlier ..

I do see your points..carefully laid out and I appreciate your posts..


regards Allie :)




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RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 6:18:03 AM   
spankmepink11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Personally, I believe that a very high percentage of the medications prescribed in this country are being taken by people who have nothing wrong with them....other than life is easier if you take a few pills. Big pharmaceutical companies push it to the docs who push it to the patients. The drug companies are making money, the docs are making money and the patients are smiling cause they are pumped full of happy pills. I know lots of folks won't agree....but I really do think there is a lot more of that going on than many people realize.


I agree with this wholeheartedly, when i was experiencing "empty nest" depression, it was pretty severe, i had some friends....who by the way take xanax like they're tic tacs,  strongly urge me to see a Dr and get a prescription,  I didn't do it, and managed to work through it just fine. 

I would not presume to say that all people who are on medications  do not need them, however  i do feel that a large percentage  of medications prescribed are not "needed". 

To me...this is similar to the findings in the 60's and 70's  that the majority of hysterectomy's that were done were unnecessary....and as in the 80's, when an orthopedic Dr informed a class i was in that roughly 85% of back surgeries that were performed were unnecessary.

The one thing that consistantly amazes me is the long list of "side effects" that come with some of these drugs, i think i would rather deal with the original malady than some of the side effects  that can occur from the "cure".

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RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 6:19:08 AM   
sub4hire


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I think a lot of it has to do with the individual people.  If they want the drugs or not.  I had an operation in April of this year.  I came out with one pill.  No pain meds, nothing.  Because I told the doctor up front I wanted nothing.
The pill, is necessary now to my health the rest of my life.  Although I'm only going to take it two year's and dump it.  Already had decided that one up front. 
There comes a time when our bodies start to break down and we do need help.  Yet, so many who take pills could do without them.

Of course I"m a big vitamin person. 

Even if a pharmaceutical company pushes a product, doesn't mean the doctor needs to prescribe it to anyone.

There should be a law against doctors having stock in pharmaceutical companies.

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RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 6:38:55 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

$5 helllllllllllllllllllllll. thats cheap.   range of prices here vary from town to town. ox goes for $50 in nyc.


What? That's more expensive than a shot of heroin. At least around here. The most expensive drug around these parts, is Subutex, which goes for up to $150 a piece. Mostly, it is bought by people who want to stay reasonably clean for 24-72 hours but don't qualify for official treatment programmes. Having seen the difference between those who get it, even just once, and those who do not, I'd support making it OTC in boxes of 1x8mg for registered addicts. It's night and day. Besides, it'd crush the illegal supply over the course of a few years.

quote:


as far as pain clinics- dont waste your time. they do physical therapy- or a TENS unit.


Depends on the pain clinic, but I think that's pretty reasonable. They try to see if people can deal with their pain in other ways than analgetics. The good ones have solutions for those who don't respond to physical therapy or TENS therapy, ranging from analgetics to severing pain-conducting nerves.

quote:


we now have an fda fast track approval for pills.


Actually, the fast track, last I heard, was seriously limited in scope.
But then I don't live in the USA, so I don't track the FDA too closely.

quote:

my dr was anything but codeine type- so i was on that vioxx neurontin crap.


My condolences on Vioxx.

That's what one gets when the important thing is avoiding addiction and abuse, rather than helping the patient.

quote:

at least we KNOW what codeine is and doesw!!!!


Well, codeine is somewhat well understood. A significant portion metabolizes to morphine. But morphine itself, and diamorphine (heroin) are probably better studied. Heroin is actually just acetylated morphine, like aspirin is acetylated salicyclic acid, so the difference between taking morphine and taking heroin is essentially the same as the difference between drinking White Willow bark tea and taking aspirin. Kicks in faster, lasts shorter, does mostly the same thing, with slightly different side effects.

Doctors have been begging to have their diamorphine back for a long time now.

And before anyone starts arguing about addiction and tolerance, let me point out that those problems can be managed quite successfully with PKC-inhibitors and NMDA-antagonists. Besides, when used for legitimate pain, tolerance buildup and addiction are very rarely a problem if the doctor knows what they are doing. Most just write off pain management with a shrug and "I don't want to lose my licence, so I'll just let my patients suffer", though.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 7:17:02 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11

when i was experiencing "empty nest" depression, it was pretty severe


Not to pry, but would you care to define "pretty severe" ?

Severe has a clinical definition and a colloquial definition.

The clinical definition indicates that one qualifies for involuntary commitment, for the reason that psychotic features are present at least part of the time and a persistent real risk of injury or death is present most of the time. In colloquial terms, this could be simplified to just "stark raving mad". While some can pull through on their own, it is rarely responsible with regard to the safety of people around the person.

The colloquial definition, in my experience, matches what one would place in the range between "subclinical" and "light". In those cases, the available drugs will generally have no effect (beyond placebo), and there's little reason to do anything about it, unless one has reason to suspect it will progress. Some research indicates prophylactic treatment reduces the number of people who progress, but that's disease prevention, so not a thing the west has a long tradition of.

quote:


The one thing that consistantly amazes me is the long list of "side effects" that come with some of these drugs, i think i would rather deal with the original malady than some of the side effects  that can occur from the "cure".


This is usually how I distinguish "subclinical" from "light".

If the patient considers the side-effects of typical first-line drugs (except for the sexual dysfunctions; those can be remedied in any case) to be worse than the original ill, then the illness is not serious enough to merit medical treatment.

During one of the worse periods I had, I was once instructed to titrate something according to the tolerability of the side-effects. After 5 days, I had reaced the dose that was apparently the target after 4 weeks. The doctor just froze and blinked when I told him, then asked whether I had managed to walk there by myself, or if I'd been carried. When I explained that I'd walked to the bus, taken that, then walked the remaining half mile or so, he quietly commented that most people would have been borderline unconscious from titrating at that speed.

To me, the side-effects were a minor annoyance against the backdrop of the illness.

Constant nausea, occasional vomiting, catheterization, fatigue, confusion, dizzyness, blurry vision, low blood pressure and mild respiratory depression were just a quite reasonable price to pay for reduced intensity of the illness. Apart from the nausea, catheterization and occasional near-fainting, I only noticed when I paid attention.

The same would not be the case today, however.

If you have cancer, you do chemo.
If you have a mole that might turn into cancer in 20 years, you don't.
Same thing with mental health.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to spankmepink11)
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RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 7:19:29 AM   
subfever


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Generally speaking, prescription drugs treat symptoms, not causes. Stop taking the drug, and the symptoms return.

The medical community wants to prescribe either drugs or surgery as treatment.

There's not nearly as much profit to be made in cures.

One should consider how it's even remotely possible, that when technology in most other areas has shot up into the stratosphere over these past 50 years... the medical community hasn't even come up with one cure or eradication for a catastrophic illness during the same time period.

Polio was the last eradication... with Salk's vaccine being officially announced in 1955. 

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RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 8:32:06 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Generally speaking, prescription drugs treat symptoms, not causes. Stop taking the drug, and the symptoms return.
The medical community wants to prescribe either drugs or surgery as treatment.
There's not nearly as much profit to be made in cures.


There's definitely a core of truth to this.
People want simple solutions, and that is catered to.
Companies want steady revenue, and that is emphasized.
That said, it is an oversimplification to say symptoms return, as such.
Stop taking penicillin before the bacteria are dead, and the symptoms return.

You can analyze most mental illnesses in terms of three components: biology, psychology and environment.

Each of these components can be a cause, and each can act as a feedback loop to sustain the illness, effectively completing a downward spiral. All successful treatment consists of altering one or more of these components, or altering one or more of the feedback loops they entail. As regulatory mechanisms in the human body and psyche tend to follow a hysteretic sigmoid function, there is a range where these things are variant normal, and two ranges where they have "locked up" and do not respond in the usual ways.

When the configuration of this triangle allows, spontaneous remission is common, but can take a great deal of time in some instances. Typically, though, people have a good configuration that just becomes slightly offset by some life event, and they end up with a recovery in the course of a few months to a couple of years. This means typical first-line drugs are hard to measure, efficacy-wise, as those are so inefficient as to make this kind of spontaneous remission a significant factor. That, and the placebo response itself can be enough to temporarily overcome the conservation of energy response and boost the psychology to the point where these factors allow a person to repair the damage.

Treating by changing environment requires lifestyle changes, societal changes or aid.

Lifestyle changes are met with resistance from the patient, and if the illness is severe, it is unfeasable to make large changes in a short span of time without inpatient care. Small changes accumulate over time, however, which is one of the pillars of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT, amusingly enough), the only therapy shown to be generally effective across a wide range of illnesses, when compared to an untrained but sympathetic listener.

Societal changes are met with resistance from society, as they do not wish to change to help someone else. Similarly, aid tends to be met with resistance, as such aid is usually a limited quantity in the person's remaining social network by the time things have reached a clinical level, meaning it needs to be supplied externally. That often deadlocks against financial issues, which are part of the environmental component.

Treating by changing psychology requires therapy and time.

Few forms of therapy directed at this can demonstrate long-term success when the illness has reached a clinical level, but some can, like CBT. Applying the latter takes time and effort which may not be available, since the factors in the triangle interlock. Being ill for a long time adversely affects your environment (especially finances and social relations), along with your biology (the evolutionary conservation of resources responses and progressively worsening dietary influences). Hence, only the stable conditions are viable to treat in this way, most of the time. And even that is something which after all tends to require an expensive therapist over a lot of time, a negative influence in itself.

Treating by changing biology requires skill, money and a bit of time.

Doctors who think all depressions are the same, or that antidepressants are like antiinflammatory agents, are usually a lottery. No more, no less. Any honest expert in the field will tell you as much. However, those who know a bit about matching the right kind of drugs (or ECT or supplements or whatever) with the symptoms a patient is exhibiting, and how to go about interpreting patient feedback, can have a great deal of success. An expert can make lasting, life-changing improvements in a short amount of time. This is the skill factor.

Time is always relevant, of course, especially since it influences the other parts of the triangle (most prominently finances), and depending on the nature of the biological intervention, the time before improvement begins can vary from hours to years. Typical first-line treatments tend to require weeks to two years, and 2-3 different drug trials, if the illness is of clinical severity. Expert first-line treatments usually take a week to a few months, on average.

Money figures in, as most people cannot afford the drugs that act quickly, or the expert care required to use those properly. Parnate (trans-2-cyclopropyl-phenethylamine), for instance, costs USD 200 for 5000mg, purchased in bulk from a chemical supplier. This is enough for anywhere from a year to three weeks, depending on the dose you need. I tried the usual maximum dose of 2.4mg/kg/day, which at the time equated to 200mg. A local pharmacy delivered that at a subsidized cost of about USD 40 per day. Usually, this dose yields a response as rapidly as ECT does, and as effectively, but with more short-term side effects and no long-term side effects. Dietary restrictions are needed, though, and the doctor must have the skill to handle interactions.

In any case, the optimal treatment is to work all three components of the "illness triangle".
But few people are positioned so that they can get such treatment.
That leaves us with a lot of people not getting a cure.

Whether those who don't need treatment still get it, isn't much of a concern for me.
Yes, it's pointless, and it doesn't really do them any good.
But they end up subsidizing those who do need it.
And that does a whole lot of good.

Now, if legal obstacles could be removed as well, so more people could receive dopaminergic interventions, we would end up saving society a significant number of billions every year, which could be spent on the lost War on Drugs to pacify those who feel that is a worthwhile way to spend it. Some estimates indicate it could even cover the war in Iraq, so it makes socioeconomic sense. Alas, the tragedy of the commons is ever the collective illness of certain societies, and ignorance the illness of all societies I know of.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 11:06:24 AM   
Termyn8or


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The short answer - money spinner.

That is not to say that some drugs aren't needed. Some are.

But when they advertise on TV, that's where they leave me behind. When they simply say "Ask your doctor if _____ is right for you, without even describing whatever condition it is supposed to treat I'll pass.

Patients are indeed a big part of the problem. People tend to think there is a pill for just about anything.

Not to digress too much, the causes of many diseases are not attacked. I believe that many diseases are caused by malnutrition. Until doctors and researchers find ways to nourish the body with the proper "mineral signature" if I may coin a phrase, we will be on a chemical merry go round.

Drug companies could direct their research into proper supplements to prevent many diseases, and they would still make money. Perhaps not as much though.

There is plenty of blame to go around. People thinking that a bottle of pills can cure everything, while they live on Mallow cups, mayonaise sandwiches and potato chips.

Then there are some doctors who are nothing but shills for the drug companies. Then there are some doctors who actually, like some patients, think that all of life's answers come in a pill bottle. Then there are some really good doctors who would try to get to the root cause of an ailment, but were actually never trained to do so.

The latter being due to the interaction of drug companies with the medical schools.

I have talked to a few people about blood and tissue samples being tested for specific deficiencies, they look at me like I am some kind of a nut. Such a test does not seem to be available in this country.

That could go a long way in improving the health of the population. By the time you need powerful drugs it is too late to cure the condition with drugs, therefore treatment, or more aptly put, maintainence is the only solution.

Years ago I got into the Dr Joel Wallach idea, which is to look to veterinary medicine for the answers. A few things can be learned, to say the least. Part of this is because the monetary influence is almost exactly the opposite than in the medical field. Vets learned to prevent some of these diseases and maladies, and in at least one notable case, a cure was adopted.

Pigs get ulcers, and for decades the have been curing them with an antibiotic and some mineral supplements. Well TADA, a few years ago this treatment started being used on humans and the ulcers went away.

They tipped their hand doing that. What do you do when you see your horse trying to eat rocks ? You get him a salt lick, and this is not the refined poison on your kitchen table. Don't get me started on that.

There is a need for antibiotics, but what of the weaknesses in the patient's immune system that made it necessary in the first place ? There is a need for insulin, but what of the deficiencies that caused the condition in the first place ? They know what they are, and have known for many years.

This is not to say that some are not born with an inferior pancreas, and there are other factors that can damage the pancreas, but I'd bet that most diabetes is caused by the mineral deficiencies. And if someone is born with a defective pancreas, what caused THAT ? Before answering, consider the existence of gestational diabetes. The fetus comes first.

More later, I owe I owe, so off to work I go.

T

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 11:17:44 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

All men over 50 should take drug to lower cholesterol, says heart expert

· Blanket prescription of statins 'would save lives'
· Caution urged by British Heart Foundation


Polly Curtis, health correspondent
Saturday July 28, 2007
The Guardian



Every man over the age of 50 should be on a daily medication of cholesterol-lowering drugs to protect against heart disease and stroke, the government's heart tsar said yesterday.  Roger Boyle said that blanket prescribing of statins should also apply to women from 60 or 65 to reduce the hundreds of thousands of deaths a year from cardiovascular diseases. He acknowledged that such a move would lead to accusations of a "nanny state" and that people would resist being medicalised from the age of 50 or 60.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,,2136543,00.html

There have been studies that show statins give women NO BENEFIT. Arrrrrrgghhhhh!!


And a 3 mile brisk WALK everyday will do the same thing but why don't these "studies" mention that?
Aswad's posting like crazy, he must be on speed!
(just kidding Aswad.)

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RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 12:58:57 PM   
spankmepink11


Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11

when i was experiencing "empty nest" depression, it was pretty severe


Not to pry, but would you care to define "pretty severe" ?

Severe has a clinical definition and a colloquial definition.



Since i can only speak from my own perception of "pretty severe" that to me...was...not caring about my physical appearance above and beyond bathing....not leaving the house....not answering the phone....crying all the time..weight gain... i won't go as far as to say i was suicidal...but... i did at times  just want it all to go away...

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 1:11:10 PM   
earthycouple


Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline
I had post partum depression after the birth of my first.  It was bad enough that I was suicidal.  I was hospitalized.  My physican of course medicated me and I was seeing a therapist to work through the feelings of inadequacy of being a new mom.  Once I stabilized my physician didn't continue to pump drugs into me, she worked with me to keep the dosage as low as we could and I remain stable. 

As time passed and life changes came about I was in a position to say I don't think I need these now and my M.D. worked with me to wean me off my medications.  Today I am no longer suicidal, depressed or on medications to manage said things.  I don't feel that I was pushed into medications nor pushed to remain on them. 

They were helpful to me and my family and I'm thankful I had a doctor who was not afraid to do what was necessary and I am thankful for a doctor who didn't believe once medicated always medicated.



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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 4:28:51 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But when they advertise on TV, that's where they leave me behind.


Yeah. I never got that. They're not allowed to do that in Norway.

quote:


I believe that many diseases are caused by malnutrition. Until doctors and researchers find ways to nourish the body with the proper "mineral signature" if I may coin a phrase, we will be on a chemical merry go round.


No need to coin a phrase. This is a field of study, and therapies are available. It is one of the things I mentioned under the heading of "biological component" when describing the three factors. Involved.

quote:


Drug companies could direct their research into proper supplements to prevent many diseases, and they would still make money. Perhaps not as much though.


They would be breaking the law if they did this. The law requires them to maximize shareholder profits. And that depends on securing patents, and catering to the popular demand. They are doing what every other company does. Remember Firestone tires? The auto industry claiming the standard of safety we take for granted today being impossible to achieve? Symptoms of a greater disease, really.

Big pharma is no different.

quote:


There is plenty of blame to go around.


Sure thing, but the short version isn't solving anything, either. Pinning it all on environmental causes (e.g. diet) is no better than pinning it all on biology. There is a complex series of interactions, and as far as you can simplify it is the triangle model I gave. Simplify further, and it is entirely useless.

quote:


I have talked to a few people about blood and tissue samples being tested for specific deficiencies, they look at me like I am some kind of a nut. Such a test does not seem to be available in this country.


That is a US-specific problem. Around here, anything that lasts more than a few months will prompt a full blood workup, and you can ask for it sooner. Smart doctors tend to do them right away.

quote:


By the time you need powerful drugs it is too late to cure the condition with drugs, therefore treatment, or more aptly put, maintainence is the only solution.


Proper treatment qualifies as a cure.
Common treatment qualifies as remission.
Some people are disposed for illness, though.
In those cases, there is no cure, including lifestyle.
And since when is lifestyle anything but maintenance?
Humans are biologically flawed creatures; we compensate.

quote:


Years ago I got into the Dr Joel Wallach idea, which is to look to veterinary medicine for the answers. A few things can be learned, to say the least.


Yeah. I've found the same in the psychiatry field. In my experience, someone presenting with the animal model of depression is more likely to be found treatment refractory than someone who presents with a more "human" model of depression. Similar things seem to hold for the duration of depression.

Anyway ... I think we're discussing fairly different things, in a way.

Most of what you're suggesting is prophylactic care.
Some of it deals with early stages of illness.
All of it seems expensive, though.

I tend to either deal with people in a prophylactic context, or at a point where they are severely ill and the doctors have given up helping them, or there are no resources available to deal with their problems. This is where I have a close look at how their mind interacts with their illness, and pinpoint the drug that will break the downward spiral, usually in the course of hours to days. Then they start getting better, to the point where the rest can be fixed around them: diet, lifestyle, therapy, etc.

Drugs are not the solution to everything.

And I'd prefer if neither I nor anyone I know had to touch another pill in their lifetime.

But seeing someone pick up their scrip, their usual messed-up selves, sitting down with them for a quick bite, and then, just as the plasma concentration reaches the level it's supposed to be at, then hear them laugh or see them smile for the first time in years because they noticed, for the first time in those years, that the sun is up, that summer is beautiful, and that they are having a good time ... that gives me a pointer that there is a place for these things.

Which is not to say I'm qualified or anything.

But I have an idea of what can be done. And, why it isn't.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Termyn8or)
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