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RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 4:35:58 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And a 3 mile brisk WALK everyday will do the same thing but why don't these "studies" mention that?

Because that's how medical science works:

You vary one factor at a time, in order to isolate the impact of different things. Once you know how each of the individual components work by themselves, you start determining how they interact with each other. Over time, you eventually arrive at a model that is reasonably correct. Then this filters down to the newest generation of doctors, and the most up-to-date of the older generation, and in time it becomes standard practice.

For a study covering one thing to focus on another thing would just be silly.

quote:

Aswad's posting like crazy, he must be on speed! (just kidding Aswad.)

I wish. Well, no, not really. Desoxyn, maybe. That would probably reduce the number of posts from me a lot. That said, I type fast, read faster, and happen to have a thing for this particular topic. Drugs, whether legal or illegal, are usually as well understood by the "masses" as BDSM, whether legal or illegal, is. And the parallel goes pretty far.

I get that it's a joke. But I might as well make my point, now that I'm done laughing.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 41

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 4:52:24 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11

Since i can only speak from my own perception of "pretty severe" that to me...was...not caring about my physical appearance above and beyond bathing....not leaving the house....not answering the phone....crying all the time..weight gain... i won't go as far as to say i was suicidal...but... i did at times just want it all to go away...

That's the colloquial definition, then, which is bad enough in itself.

People often think I'm marginalizing the suffering of those who aren't quite as bad as what I focus on. That isn't the case, I assure you. I sympathize, and hope people will not have to face it again. But that doesn't negate the fact that, as illnesses go, at least according to the scale we use around here, it falls in the lower part of the clinical range. It's like a broken leg hurts, but in the next bed over someone is waiting for their appendectomy, and across the hall some cancer patient is dying. For each of them, it is probably the worst they have dealt with so far, but from the perspective of treating them, there is a scale. Which does not change the nature or validity of each experience.

Moderate, by the scale I'm used to, would generally involve things like total neglect of physical appearance and basic hygiene, not leaving the bed for other reasons than voiding, being fairly unresponsive to face-to-face communication, not noticing the phone ringing, having no tears left, eating maybe once or twice a week without coercion, being entirely devoid of positive feelings, and thinking a fair bit about whether there might be a way to end it all without being a greater burden to the people who want to care.

That may give an idea of where severe is on that scale, and why I wondered.

I'm really glad to hear you pulled through, in any case.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 42

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 5:00:18 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: earthycouple

I don't feel that I was pushed into medications nor pushed to remain on them.

It would seem there's a divide between the US and Europe, here.
I've never felt that, either, nor have most people I know.
Yours seems a good example of how it should work.

quote:

I am thankful for a doctor who didn't believe once medicated always medicated.

~nod~

There are various rules of thumb to prevent relapse, but those oversimplify the issue, and gloss over the fact that prophylaxis is of limited net value for many patients, compared to the side effects (once one is in remission, that is) and the stigma.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to earthycouple)

Post #: 43

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/30/2007 9:34:23 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthycouple

I don't feel that I was pushed into medications nor pushed to remain on them.

It would seem there's a divide between the US and Europe, here.
I've never felt that, either, nor have most people I know.
Yours seems a good example of how it should work.

quote:

I am thankful for a doctor who didn't believe once medicated always medicated.

~nod~

There are various rules of thumb to prevent relapse, but those oversimplify the issue, and gloss over the fact that prophylaxis is of limited net value for many patients, compared to the side effects (once one is in remission, that is) and the stigma.

Aswad, do they advertise prescription medications on tv in Norway like they do here in the U.S.?
The reason for advertising is to "sell" a product or service.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 44

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 1:48:58 AM

FelinePersuasion

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When I was in the group home, I was forced to take at least 4 medications I didn't want, and in the end made me very ill, so my child avdicate atterny had to step in and get it court ordered I was not to take these meds, and further more they could not penalize me by grounding me or making my family not come for my refusal to takw them.

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Most of the time if it looks like BS, smells like BS, you probably should not t taste it to see if, in fact, it is BS.

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Post #: 45

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 1:56:53 AM

camille65

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From: Austin Texas
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That sounds like a bad situation

. What kind of medications did they force on you that had such bad results?
I'm glad you had someone in your corner to help you out, did they also get you out of the group home?

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~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

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Post #: 46

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 2:04:35 AM

FelinePersuasion

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Ironically she did, they didn't like her meddling in their affairs, she fought hard for my rights, and told my parents, the staff could not keep them from calling to speak to me if they insisted to talk to their kid, they had to be allowed to do so, and she said they could not ground me for self abuse from getting friction sores from sucking my thumb, cause I'd suck it so much, to much, get a sore, and if I asked for orijel, they'd mark it as self abuse.

so they trumped up a story that with out my meds I was a danger to myself and every one around me, we must kick her out of the program, and after that I went to live with an aunt then a friend of our family, then home.

I was on depicoat* can't spell it*, resperidal* at one time*, a green and white one, I can't remember name of, but it was a capsil, , and a few others I can't remember, all the names of every one they had me on while I was there, plus birthcontrol, to regulate my periods.

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

That sounds like a bad situation . What kind of medications did they force on you that had such bad results?
I'm glad you had someone in your corner to help you out, did they also get you out of the group home?

< Message edited by FelinePersuasion -- 7/31/2007 2:10:27 AM >

_____________________________

Most of the time if it looks like BS, smells like BS, you probably should not t taste it to see if, in fact, it is BS.

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 47

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 3:55:37 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Aswad, do they advertise prescription medications on tv in Norway like they do here in the U.S.?

No, they do not.
First off, the general population would find it distasteful.
Second, it is illegal, and I think the repercussions are in the same range as pushing illegal drugs.

The only thing you can do, as I recall, is give free instruction and courses to doctors, along with the usual mugs/notepads. That does increase the likelyhood of them picking your drug over your competitors' drugs, as they will feel more qualified to use it, but it does not generally change what they are looking for in the first place, just which brand.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 48

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 4:14:02 AM

Aswad

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FelinePersuasion,

Green and white ... would that be one that made you sleepy by any chance?
If so, that was probably the tranquilizer Vistaril (hydroxyzine).
It does not, generally speaking, go well with the other two.
My congratulations on getting out of there.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to FelinePersuasion)

Post #: 49

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 9:27:33 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Aswad, do they advertise prescription medications on tv in Norway like they do here in the U.S.?
The reason for advertising is to "sell" a product or service.

...dunno about Norway, but i believe it is illegal in the UK. One of the things that astonish me about north american TV is the prescription drug adverts.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 50

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 9:42:41 AM

GhitaAmati

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Joined: 5/30/2007
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Im one of those who believes in stopping treating symptoms and cure the person....but thats not to say I believe all drugs are bad. Some are needed, but I think big pharma is in it just to make money, and they pressure the Docs into prescribing pills to cure symptoms instead of actually healing illnesses. I had surgery on my knee my senior year of high school....big wrestling match, guy was embarressed a girl was beating him and decided to force my knee into a position it wasnt meant to be in. After that surgery I took all the pills the docs told me because I thougt I was supposed to. Finally realized all the bad things the pills were doing and decided feeling a little pain was better than the side effects of the pills. The first batch tore up my stomach and I had constant heartburn, then they put me on vioxx...helped the heartburn but had other problems. Id rather just limp

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Post #: 51

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 9:47:45 AM

philosophy

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...i tend to agree. i read somewhere years ago (no link i'm afraid) that the majority of drugs were presribed to offset the side effects of drugs presribed to treat primary conditions. Obviously, if you have meningitis then anti-biotics are a good idea on the whole. Given the proven benefits though of cognitive therapy over drug therapy there ought to be a few less prozac prescriptions and a few more therapists. However, the use of chemicals to provide a quick fix isn't restricted to those who like their disco biscuits, doctors can be just as lazy.

(in reply to GhitaAmati)

Post #: 52

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 9:50:56 AM

Aswad

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Responsible pharmacology and free market capitalism are mutually exclusive.
Responsible pharmacology and a holistic approach to curing people are not.

When we simplify everything down to "zomg, we're using too much drugs!", we're doing the same thing, propagating the same thinking that causes the mistake. Of course, that's to be expected. That's why the mistake is there in the first place. People tend to go for the symptoms. Not many see beyond that. But if we give it a go, perhaps we can cure the disease instead.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to GhitaAmati)

Post #: 53

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 10:00:02 AM

FelinePersuasion

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Joined: 11/20/2004
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no, it was for depression, all though the combo of all the meds at he time when I speak of, did make me sleepy light, noise and situation sensitive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

FelinePersuasion,

Green and white ... would that be one that made you sleepy by any chance?
If so, that was probably the tranquilizer Vistaril (hydroxyzine).
It does not, generally speaking, go well with the other two.
My congratulations on getting out of there.

_____________________________

Most of the time if it looks like BS, smells like BS, you probably should not t taste it to see if, in fact, it is BS.

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 54

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 10:37:24 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Given the proven benefits though of cognitive therapy over drug therapy there ought to be a few less prozac prescriptions and a few more therapists.

Emphasis mine. Could you please provide some citations?

Last I heard, most large reviews indicated similar efficacy for CBT as for SSRIs.
Which is pretty much to say that both tend to be crap, but better than nothing.
And most studies indicate that a combination gives a short term improvement.
As to your comment on "lazy", that was a pretty lazy comment, I dare say.
Some of us are okay with being wandering monks, hippies, or whatever.
Others are not, or have commitments to loved ones who are not.
That entails providing a house, warmth, clothes, and some food.
In most cultures, this requires a job, at least now and then.
And a job is hard to hold on to when you're screwed.
Have problems wrapping your head around that?
Then you need to have a look at what this is.
We're not talking about a bad day, here.
Rather, you seem to be, I'm not.
In short, another quick fix.
Or just a brainfart.

Because those aren't restricted to doctors and their patients; forum posters can have brainfarts, too.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 55

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 4:31:21 PM

proudsub

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This article and video may interest some of you, and it's right on topic here. I subscribe to www.mercola.com and really enjoy their articles.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2007/07/30/most-astonishing-health-disaster-of-the-20th-century.aspx

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to SaintAllie)

Post #: 56

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 5:20:07 PM

Aswad

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While the word bias doesn't come close, there is a core of truth to it.
Iatrogenic (due to/because of treatment) illness is not uncommon.
And doctor error is the 4th-5th leading cause of death, as such.
But these figures do not tell the whole story.
Average life expectancy does.

And average life expectancy is positively correlated with conventional medical care.

Doctor error was higher on the list of causes of death in Norway than in the USA, last time I checked.

But we still have a higher average life expectancy.
This means the doctors are doing their jobs.
Can they get better?
Hell, yes.

It's easy to misguide people with the kind of rhetoric used in the article you linked. But the facts remain. I have found people often have a big problem with numbers in general, and statistics in particular. There is one little thing about the statistics used here: 100% of the people counted in "cause of death" statistics are dead. That means this isn't a guide to what's wrong, it's a guide to what we should focus on improving. If we eliminate cancer, then the others go way up. The reason is simple: the ones who aren't dying from cancer anymore, are still dying, but from something else.

Modern medicine currently changes the cause of death; it does not cure death.

But what it also does, is postpone death, and improve quality of life in the interim.

Good scores on any standardized metric of quality of life currently employed is positively correlated with availability of medical care. It is also correlated with the quality, but not so much as to matter a lot in the big picture, at least with anything remotely resembling what we are used to. Medical care reduces suffering, improves life expectancy, provides trauma care, and ... oh ... occasionally kills someone by mistake, or by inadequacy.

Let's hope we eventually converge on the point where the only cause of death in the world is medical care.
Because that will only be the case when we've eliminated every other cause of death with medical care.

In short, conventional medicine is a human miracle, with human flaws.

Let's not forget the "miracle" part, however.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to proudsub)

Post #: 57

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 5:26:25 PM

Termyn8or

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Here ya go:

http://members.aol.com/JURB6006/Killyastine.htm

Wrote that a long long time ago.

T

(in reply to proudsub)

Post #: 58

RE: medications... needed or a money spinner? - 7/31/2007 8:23:02 PM

proudsub

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From: Washington
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Here ya go:

http://members.aol.com/JURB6006/Killyastine.htm

Wrote that a long long time ago.

T

Funny!!

Aswad, i agree statistics can be manipulated to make one's point. I do like Mercola's approach which emphasizes prevention and natural remedies over conventional medecine. Now if i could only find a natural cure for my hip.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 59

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