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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 11:23:54 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetNsmartBBW

Sorry, that last line should have read nature versus nurture *slaps the hand of my typist*...


maybe you slapped your typists hand too hard...LOL


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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 11:46:39 AM   
sweetNsmartBBW


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Hi michael...lol...nope.  I slapped it ~just~ right....trust me....she liked it!  *G*

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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 12:01:45 PM   
lusciouspeach78


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Let's see if I can come up with a half-ass intelligent answer here! (this is my first ever response)
Based on the saying that not much separates man from the beasts (or animals) I'd have to say that monogamy is highly socialized. One example I can think of off the top of my head is geese...There's a huge flock of them on my land every year, and the numbers continue to grow. Geese are said to mate for life. BLEH. So there is monogamy in the animal kingdom. But then there are other animals such as livestock and dogs, that are not so picky....sometimes crossing the gender lines....Humans had to have adopted monogamy as a social norm, cuz otherwise it's hardly out there.
I did read a bit of an earlier post where someone had said that women seem to cheat during ovulation. Well, the whole point behind that is that women are wired to look for the most appealing characteristics during ovulation....good breeding stock, if you will....so that we can find the man with the strongest genes. I'm sure that has a lot to do with why women cheat~~many just "settle" for who they have instead of looking for who and what is right.
And as for women being hard-wired for monogamy, I will strongly disagree with that!! I have NEVER been wired for monogamy until marriage, and even then the only reason I have been is because marriage is technically a legally binding contract!! Neither gender is more or less hard wired for monogamy....some people are fine with it, while others out there seek and need more, which is obviously why the majority of us is here.
OK, so not the most intelligent sounding argument, but hey, it's my first time!

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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 12:07:01 PM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetNsmartBBW

Hi michael...lol...nope.  I slapped it ~just~ right....trust me....she liked it!  *G*


if she likes it so much, did you do it again...just for fun?




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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 12:16:07 PM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

And for me it would be one of the most horrifyingly wrong thing a person could do and certainly negate any possibility of "real love" for me.  Anyone who would deny who they are to be with me is NOT someone I want to be with.  And I wouldn't appreciate it so much as gingerly try and let them down easily.

For me, love and healthy relationships means encouraging the person to be true to who they are- even if it means not being with me.

Ghita:  Sorry, no, didn't get the humor.  Thanks for explaining! :)


I've always loved this topic.  I was actually discussing it with someone last night, in the context of Western verses...well, non-Western values.  In the near and far East, poly relationships weren't (or aren't, depending on 'where' you look) seen in the context of love, so much as an illustration and exchange of social power and authority.  Love isn't even considered part of the equation.

As other's have pointed out, the answer first needs a clear question; are we talking about sexual monogamy?  Emotional Monogamy?  Social Monogamy?  What role does fidelity really play?  What importance does social expectations play in interpersonal relationships? (i.e. a group of 20 people socialized for monogamy stranded on a desert island for thirty years; do/should they practice monogamy?  Is this a result of social conditioning, or natural inclinations?)

LA, I wholeheartedly agree with you.  Yet, I want to suggest that if there were no social constructs or pre-existing social models already in place, would 'natural inclinations' have any real meaning?  It's impossible for one to utilize their natural talents for mathematics, if they are never taught how to add or subtract.  To know who we are naturally, we must possess the knowledge of how others can be, naturally. 

As for this topic, I think we are not sexually wired for monogamy.  I think there is enormous social power in ensuring that people are monogamous.  If a father has three children, and showers each with love and devotion, and encourages the children to be generous with each other "Here's three cookies, Bobby, enjoy one and give one to your brothers" than the children are more likely to grow up to be willing to share with those they love.  If the father does not give affection or attention to these children, except in the form of gifts, jealousy breeds rampently "Take one and give one to your brothers"... Bobby, when he gets around the corner, immediately shows his brothers the cookies, and eats them all in front of his brothers.  Thus, I believe the predisposition towards 'sharing' love, is a socialized one.  This is a very generalized example, obviously; lots of factors will come into play.

Wise people in positions of power, know that people are, typically, jealous of each other.  It is our greed that drives us to perform greater, faster, bigger, stronger feats.  Necessity may be the mother of invention, but greed is the father.  In taking advantage of these deeply ingrained emotions that almost all people have, society is more easily led by it's nose.  This is where 'populist' politicians come from.  It's an old leadership style indeed, both politically and religiously.

Anyway, I think monogamy in relationships has value; a committed couple will have a good chance of successfully raising offspring to be happy and healthy.  This isn't to say poly families cannot or do not raise children to be healthy, but jealosy is a feeling (emotion?) that runs so deep and is taught so early, that outside of the typical 'extended family' (blood relatives) they do not tend to exist.  Poly families where the love element is removed, on the other hand, seem to be successful social institutions, though certainly institutions where freedom of expression are not permitted.  This isn't to condemn or praise any one form of society, merely an observation.

Confused?  Yeah, me too.  I"ll take another stab at this later.  For the record, I write things like this, sometimes, to figure out what I really think about it.

Stephan


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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 12:29:48 PM   
luckydog1


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Interesting post....
The point that Human nature is intrinsictly linked to "society"(socialization) is very important, and the 2 can't really be seperated.  There is no human nature beyond socialization, strikes me as very obvious and true.  We are social creatures.

There is a huge difference between Polygamy (and Polyandry), and infidelity.  Plenty of societies have allowed Men to take as many wives as they can, but cheating could result in punishment up to death.

As to the Neolithic hunters of Eons past.  They did not make a rational choice of putting thier eggs in different baskets, and the women did not rationally seek out other partners for genetic diversity.   They did not understand the link between sex and babies anymore than a dog does, it is almost incomprehensible yet true.  Women periodically got pregnant, no one knew why.  Generally it was considered sacred, and related to Goddes worship.  They were still finding isolated tribes in the 20th century, who had not figured it out yet.  Once it was learned things changed pretty quickly( male dominance, Male sky God, ect) it was a huge step in our social evolution (which is realted intrinsictly to our knowledge of the world around us)on par with making fire, planting seeds, and writing.  Men began to realise which boys actually were thier children, before only the mothers did.  Men began to care more about thier actuall sons, than male children in general.  Property began to be handed down patrilinerally.  Women ceased to be the holy source of babies, and became the vessel for the sperm to make babies, and you want to have a pure vessel to make the best son right? Famillies began to form within the clans.  Titles and occupations began to be passed down patrilinerally.  We often consider the familly to be the root of human society, but for most of our history (pre history) that has not been the case.

One of the most important things in order to have a functioning society is impulse controll, and sexuall impulses are among the strongest, hence we tend to see strict rules regarding sexuallity in almost all societies, even though the rules can be widley varied.  Breaking a rule can get you a short term gain, but generally leads to problems for the society at large.  That is why it is called cheating.  We live in a world where people often break the rules for short term gains and pleasure, and we face a host of problems because of it.

Benefits of Monogamy v polygamy....
Most every member will get a mate (or at least has a reasonable chance), which leads to a happier society. 
Less problems with STD's
Capital that is used to attract mates can be put towards other uses (ideally benificial ones)
Stability in the home (and society)seems good for the kids

Polygamy
leads to surplus males with no stake in society
Is great if you are Rich(have power), sucks if you are not.
Tends to put women and most men in a very subordinate position (great fun to act out, not so good to base a society on)   Living in a BDSM society for real, would be a nightmare, unless of course I was the supreme alpha of the world, and obviously only one of the billions of us could be in that position.

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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 12:43:47 PM   
SwitchMaleChgo


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Interesting point luckydog1 if I intrepeted you correctly. We are social animals so to be socialized is well, instinctual. Aint that about a bitch?!?!

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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 12:55:17 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

There's no such thing as a human nature divorced from society, and the demands of socialization have had profound effects on our biological evolution.


Of course there is... such animals are called feral children.
And any effects of socialization on our evolution most likely predate symbolic language.


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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 1:35:40 PM   
Aswad


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Just a quick note...

There's actually several models to compare: monogamy, polygyny, polyandry and endogamy.

Leonidas commented elsewhere that in about 40% of the cases (where he lives, 20% national average), when a child is born, the man who thinks himself the biological father, is not. He also pointed out that, from a male perspective, the two viable strategies for propagation are (a) having a mate and preventing it from becoming pregnant by others, thus ensuring that the child carries one's own genetic material, and (b) attempting to impregnate as many mates as possible, which leads to uncertain paternity, but compensates by offering many opportunities to procreate.

For a woman, the maternity of her child is not in question.

It follows that evolution would be driven by a balance by the attempts of men following strategy A to "weed out" infidelity, and the benefits to women from seeking as many couplings as possible. As a result, one might expect that two dominant "wirings" would prevail: mono and poly. Meshed with the two male strategies, you get a mix of monogamy and cheating. In societies with the appropriate culture for it, cheating might be possible to replace with polygyny, polyandry or endogamy.

Up to the point where a pervasive culture became possible, evolutionary psychology applies.
In this timeframe, we can examine the strategies in question, as procreation is the goal.

Monogamy confers some benefit on the woman, and limited benefit on the species, but significant benefit on the male. Since women don't wear neon signs proclaiming whether they are inclined towards infidelity, this means the male needs to take steps to insure the paternity of the offspring, which is pretty much how I think we arrived at patriarchy after awareness of men's role in producing babies became known and so forth: men establish control over their women, so those who are inclined towards infidelity can be successfully isolated from other potential mates. When this becomes a social institution, the evolutionary advantage dissipates, but that is irrelevant to the discussion.

Polygyny confers a little benefit on the women (help with child-rearing, etc.), significant benefit on the species, and significant benefit on the men. It no longer matters quite as much whether the women are inclined towards infidelity, although it is still likely that measures will eventually spring forth that insure the paternity of offspring, conferring the additional benefit that only men who can provide for several women will have much opportunity for mating. Men are expendable, as far as propagating the species is concerned, and in situations where war or predators raise death tolls, this model makes a lot of sense.

Polyandry confers social benefits on the woman (but requires a society that can suppress male infidelity), no benefit on the species, and no benefit on the men. Whether a woman is inclined towards infidelity only determines the number of partners chosen, and there is no need to consider the paternity from the POV of the one who gets to choose (the woman). This has the unfortunate problem that propagation of the species encounters a bottleneck, making it unviable regardless of the resources that are available, unless the average number of children per woman exceeds the average number of men she has. In some social structures, that can work, but I don't think a premodern society could keep it up for very long without also allowing polygyny, since childbirth is a common cause of death in premodern society.

Endogamy, where one is monogamous within a group, but not monogamous with a single individual, confers benefits on the women, the species and the males. It provides a strong group bonding, confines the matter of paternity to a group which does not distinguish paternity on an individual level, makes infidelity irrelevant inside the group, and allows procreation to proceed at any pace, while the group is fairly resillient to the loss of individuals. STD transmission is limited. Some endogamous configurations may resemble polygyny, if there is an alpha/beta dynamic, such as with wolves.

As I recall, there is significant evidence that Homo Neanderthalensis practiced endogamy without an alpha/beta dynamic.

Anyway... just some thoughts on it.

It does not appear to me that poly is unnatural, whether in the emotional sense or the sexual sense.
But neither does mono appear unnatural, in either sense.

My personal guess is that about 1 in 5 men have the wiring for multiple-male relationships, while about 4 in 5 have the wiring for multiple-female relationships. Similarly, I would guess about 4 in 5 women have the wiring for multiple-male relationships, while about 2 in 5 have the wiring for multiple-female relationships. This leaves the "true poly" rates, by my guess, at 4 in 25 males and slightly less than 1 in 3 females. The legacy of patriarchal societies obsession with paternity in societies without polygyny probably drives these figures way down by way of social conditioning.

Again, that's just my guess.


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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 3:08:16 PM   
kyraofMists


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Wow, I go to work and come back to three pages of responses.  Thank you for all the feedback despite my awkwardly worded questions.  I was struggling for words at 7 O'clock this morning.

Now to spend time reading them all...

Knight's Kyra

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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 3:22:14 PM   
Mikal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

hijack...
 
Do you have any idea how sexy you are??   
 
[/hijack]
quote:


 
(hijack reply) *grins* Me or kyraofMists???  (/hijack reply)
 
edited 'cause the post looked really weired...

< Message edited by Mikal -- 8/1/2007 3:46:19 PM >


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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 3:26:38 PM   
DCWoody


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"or other animals who are monogamous with their mates does anyone know if science has done a study on how often those animals cheat on their mates?"

I recall a DNA study of swans that revealed roughly 15% of cygnets raised were not fathered by the father.....but this may well often be a case of swan rape.

And all sorts of dna surverys and random dna tests consistently show that roughly 10% of all children in monogamous couples who were meant to be the child of their father, weren't. the 10% is the same in all countries, religions, and social statuses.....with the exceptions of some devout Muslim areas and the Amish.

Devout Muslims often carry out Islamic laws about when and more often when not a woman is allowed to be left alone with a man or men, which are designed to prevent extramariatal sex, and apparently they work.....but I have no explanation for the Amish.

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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 3:28:43 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Right, and how many examples of feral children do you know?  Five per century?  For that matter, how many feral children have ever had children of their own?

You couldn't be more wrong that socialization hasn't influenced human evolution since the development of language, but I'll let you find the literature for yourself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

There's no such thing as a human nature divorced from society, and the demands of socialization have had profound effects on our biological evolution.


Of course there is... such animals are called feral children.
And any effects of socialization on our evolution most likely predate symbolic language.

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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 3:31:18 PM   
Honsoku


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The short answer: it's both

The long answer;

From an evolutionary perspective, monogamy and polygamy can be expressed as a prisoner's dilemma. If you and your partner are both monogamous you both get the maximum benefit of the other person's resources (by resources, I mean everything the person has to offer). If you are monogamous and your partner is not then your partner is getting the full benefit from your resources while you only get some of your partner's. The ideal situation for the individual (assuming the resources are available and quality is constant) is to be polygamous with partners who are monogamous with you. So one would seek polygamy for themselves, but monogamy in their partners.

Then why have monogamy at all? There are several reasons. Socially enforced monogamy is good for people who are on the lower end of the resource ladder as it forces more mates to be available. Because of this, monogamy is beneficial towards maintaining social order, as it lowers the frustration level. It is also good for the overall health of the genepool as it helps ensure maximum genetic diversity; rather than just a handful of people monopolizing the majority of potential mates. Monogamy can also be used as a bargaining chip to acquire a better mate than would otherwise be available as the monogamist effectively has more resources available than the polygamist; thusly they exchange quantity of mates for quality. This chip becomes more valuable the wider the range of resources available (if all mates are effectively equal, what does any single individual's resources matter?).

Counter argument: But I have no interest in polygamy at all! Evolutionary perspectives does not mean everyone will follow the evolutionary ideal path. Think of all the people who, for whatever reason, can not or will not have children. From an evolutionary perspective, they would be considered dead ends as their genes will not be passed on. Evolution does not railroad, it guides.

Then why are women more apt to monogamy than men? First off, I don't wholly believe that is the case. There is a strong social pressure in that regard and a tendency to expend a lot of effort concealing cases to the contrary. Secondly, men have a lot more to theoretically gain from polygamy then women do. In the time it takes for a woman to bring one child to term (approximately nine months) a rather industrious male could sire around 810 children (3 times a day x 30 days in a month x nine months) (I did say industrious ). Even at a more realistic attempt and success rate, a male can provide the genetics for vastly more children than a female.

So there are reasons for monogamy to exist naturally and to be enforced socially, just as there are reasons for polygamy to exist. For more reading on the subject (including an interesting hypothesis on why the church got involved) I personally would recommend the Red Queen. He gets into the social aspects a lot more than I did.

< Message edited by Honsoku -- 8/1/2007 3:37:19 PM >

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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 5:41:41 PM   
domiguy


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We are not monogamous critters.....We have been taught to be monogamous.....Though I posted this initially as somewhat of a joke....Someone explain to me what is the purpose of women who live together all having their period at the same time?

Is it not to be fertilized by domiguy?

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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 6:24:52 PM   
kyraofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikal
Sorry for the length. Extra brownie and cookie points if you managed to read through the whole thing!!! LOL


I read it all and since I prefer brownies to cookies can I have double brownie points  *g*

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Knight's Kyra

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"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 6:31:46 PM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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i bake good brownies. i just love to bake

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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 6:32:47 PM   
ChainsandFreedom


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I posted hours ago and was thinking at this at work today where I couldnt post.
Than I get back and there is far too much to respond to.

I just want to say:

first- People have mentioned jealousy; nobody has mentioned WHY jealousy seems to be so ingrained in our brains across cultural boundries. Most humans become jealous at the thought of their mate with another. There has to be a reason that this was advantageous.

second- People who say monogomy is good for men but it regulates women to property are forgetting that women are often dependant upon community members during pregnacy and child-rearing for their and their prognies survival. There are population groups at play today which tend to bemoan fatherless children and mateless mothers as being at a disadvantage. Its fine if modern materially rich people can raise a child on their own, but to assume only males benifit from monogomy is idealistic at best.

The assumption that neolithic or even lithic cultures were polygamous is only an assumption. You can't preform paternity tests on individual fossil remains where family context has been lost. It might even be aruged that this assumption is a tool of our modern cultures to paint our past as one of hedionism.

Human being evolved in east africa and population pressure was very low so there were resources even as the jungles turned to plains-the assumption that men were off sowing their seed on long hunting trips while the woman were having sex with other males is based upon a genderized economy most archealogists say didn't come about during our initial evolution but rather came into play as resources were more scarice and people had to travel farther to aqquire what they needed.

What did our evolution grant us? We are a species of problem solving tool users who adapt well to various enviroments. In this context, it seems more likely that teamwork, and close-knit groups which require trust and a certain degree of alturism, were more fundimental than various genetic partners. It was about how humans raised their kids, provided for them, and altered the enviroment that dictated sucess more than it was about their individual gentic makeup.

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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 6:38:01 PM   
kyraofMists


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Lam,

Thank you for the article; I did enjoy reading it and your post.

For the most part my questions were academic, but as a person who identified as monogamous for many years and now is in a poly relationship the more I learn, the more joy I find in my relationships. 

This thread has sparked quite a few musings that just are not fodder for the message boards.  Thank you again.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Monogamy - Natural or Socialized - 8/1/2007 6:43:09 PM   
luckydog1


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I am not sure you could ever find a truly feral child.  Would that not require it being isolated the moment it was born and never interacting with any other.  How could a child posibly live even for a day like that, its skull isn't even fully formed and it cant even lift its head.  Even assuming it was instantly discarded and then adopted by wolves, apes or some other social creature, it would be socialised in the culture of wolves or whatever...

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