Hitler as a Leader (Full Version)

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Faramir -> Hitler as a Leader (6/29/2005 6:05:05 PM)

From LAM in this thread:

quote:

Still, I'd like to know what FARAMIR meant, because it sounded fishy. My point was simple: a leader's popularity is no indication of whether he is a good or bad leader. (I said this in response to Faramir's argument that Bush can't be one of the worst presidents in American history because he was duly elected and we are a democracy.) If Faramir wants to deny that Hitler was one of the worst leaders in history, I would love to hear his argument.


I would hold Hitler as a superior political leader, with deep flaws. Please note that I am speaking strictly in efficacy – in his ability as a leader to meet the needs of his electorate. I’m not addressing his ethics – National Socialist Germany ranks only below The Lenin-Stalin experiment in collectivism for sheer horror.

Post-war Germany was in a rigged game – the Allies framed a game Germany could not win: reparation payments that were high enough a part of German GDP so as to marginally destroy the country. In order to make the payments, the Social Democrats had to set tax rates at a prohibitively high rate, moving from somewhere between points “E” and “C” on the Laffer Curve to perhaps point “A.” The move up the Curve lowered revenues, putting the Social Democrats in an insoluble bind: the higher they raised taxes to pay reparations, the less revenues from which to pay. They turned to one of the oldest revenue tricks in the book: coin clipping. Since the reparation payments were denominated in marks, each devaluation of the currency lowered the effective burden of the payments, but each introduction of increasing monetary error shrank the economy – the revenue pool continued to shrink as the economy was destroyed by monetary inflation.

The Social Democrats could not solve the nations problems* – another set of revolutions was around the corner, when Hitler arrived with a brilliant solution to the nation’s problems: unilateral suspension of payments to the Allies, monetary stability and tax reform.

Hitler met the needs of the German electorate in a fashion superior to that of the SD’s and other socialist parties in the Weimar – he was the superior leader among the available choices in Germany.

He was also deeply flawed as a leader. The global electorate had already demonstrated with Napoleon that empire through conquest was no longer a permissible way to lower production barriers and meet needs. I think there is a useful comparison between Imperial France and National Socialist Germany: two totalitarian dictatorships with a secret police security apparatus, imperial ambitions through conquest, and a failure to understand that the global electorate no longer allowed empire via conquest. Sure, the Nazi’s far exceeded the French in horror – but the difference is in scale, not type.

Now – I really don’t think of Hitler as a superior leader. Ultimately the global electorate put him down hard, and he led his nation to ruin. In the end Hitler really was an awful political leader. He was however superior to the other leadership choices out there at the time – it is useful to see how when you have two bad choices, the electorate chooses the best of them. I think if you simply put Adolf Hitler in the “evil” box it frees you from having to do nuanced, critical political thinking – and you miss some important lessons in political economy.




*I am simplifying for brevity and skipping over Stressemann and the Dawe’s Plan – the US destroyed any chance the SD’s had with Smoot-Hawley in 1929.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (6/29/2005 9:41:46 PM)

My only two comments about this are:

1. How can you call a leader "effective" if he utterly ruined the nation he was leading? Many people THOUGHT he was going to be effective, but, as I stated on the other thread (the one that started this offshoot), he failed by his own standards--and by just about anyone else's, too.

2. If you concede that MORALLY National Socialism is among the worst "experiments" in human history, how does it not follow that the architect of National Socialism wasn't one of the worst leaders in human history? The moral cost of the Nazi "experiment" is still being borne today. Even in the economic terms you favor, it has cost Europe trillions and trillions.

I'll add another thought, a methodological one: the reasoning behind your "model" is circular. Of course there were good reasons why all leaders have come to power: if there weren't good reasons for their rise, they wouldn't have come to power in the first place. Your theory really just reduces to "successful leaders are successful leaders."

Lam




knees2you -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (6/29/2005 11:26:41 PM)

His own Officers, {some of them} Called him
an Anti~Christ[&:]
Hmmm I wonder why~

quote:

"Hell from beneath is excited about You, to meet You at Your coming."


Sincerely, Ant[;)]




lonewolf05 -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (6/30/2005 3:22:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: knees2you

His own Officers, {some of them} Called him
an Anti~Christ[&:]
Hmmm I wonder why~
=====================================
after being in germany, my family homeland, i had talks with the people, and it is about the horror, not the first part of his regime. he came into power because those at the time thought he was doing good, getting a nation back under one roof and uniting the people.
his deeds in the long run gave them the idea. and earned him the title.

thanks




Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (6/30/2005 8:15:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

My only two comments about this are:

1. How can you call a leader "effective" if he utterly ruined the nation he was leading? Many people THOUGHT he was going to be effective, but, as I stated on the other thread (the one that started this offshoot), he failed by his own standards--and by just about anyone else's, too.



As I said:

quote:



Now – I really don’t think of Hitler as a superior leader. Ultimately the global electorate put him down hard, and he led his nation to ruin. In the end Hitler really was an awful political leader.


My point is that for a while he was effective - he really did solve massive economic problems for Germany. His efficacy is in contrast to the other option presented to German electorate: a socialist coalition who had led the nation to the brink of another round of revolutions.

We got onto to this topic as part of a discussion of the aggregate wisdom of the electorate - the electorate picked the more effective of the choices at the time. Unfortunately Germany discarded the superior system of democracy in favor of a totalitarian dictatorship - a much less effecient form of government, that did not allow for progressive checks on Hitler's leadership. Absent democracy, which always picks the best of the avilable choices, Hitler's increasing policy errors lead to a worse and worse condition for Germany and the global electorate.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (6/30/2005 3:57:45 PM)

I guess we're going around in circles, but, you know, you STILL haven't explained how democracies supposedly always pick the best of the available choices. Posting a link to your soi-disant "model" is not an answer. In fact, I'd consider it a serious defect of your model that it assumes (or predicts, regardless) something so patently implausible.

If things were really as simple as you make them out to be, anyone would be qualified for political analysis with an advanced degree in wargaming. It wasn't the "global electorate" that defeated Hitler. It was the combined armies of the U.S.A. and U.S.S.R.--on whom (minor detail coming) he had declared war.




Raphael -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (6/30/2005 5:11:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

My point is that for a while he was effective - he really did solve massive economic problems for Germany. His efficacy is in contrast to the other option presented to German electorate: a socialist coalition who had led the nation to the brink of another round of revolutions.

We got onto to this topic as part of a discussion of the aggregate wisdom of the electorate - the electorate picked the more effective of the choices at the time. Unfortunately Germany discarded the superior system of democracy in favor of a totalitarian dictatorship - a much less effecient form of government, that did not allow for progressive checks on Hitler's leadership. Absent democracy, which always picks the best of the avilable choices, Hitler's increasing policy errors lead to a worse and worse condition for Germany and the global electorate.


Frankly I think you've got it exactly backwards - given sufficient iterations, democracy seems to always wind up picking the worst possible leaders.

That said, I do agree with much of your analysis of Hitler. He was an awful man, who made some rather awful and fundamental errors, and his country wound up ruined again as a result - but in some ways he was much better than the so-called opposition at the time.

Ultimately, I think one story of his last words sums it all up though - "I should have been more like Stalin."

I mean, think about it, Stalin killed far more people than Hitler, he was in every measurable way Hitlers equal or better in terms of Evil, yet he WON World War II, and took the lions' share of the spoils, while Hitler wound up dying in that shitty little bunker.






Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (6/30/2005 7:00:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raphael

Frankly I think you've got it exactly backwards - given sufficient iterations, democracy seems to always wind up picking the worst possible leaders.



Why then has democracy displaced both monarchy and collectivism as the most succesful political system*? If democracy were inneficient, I would have expected democracy to be displaced by competing systems - not the reverse.




* to date - who knows what the nest iteration of political systems will be.




Raphael -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (6/30/2005 9:47:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raphael

Frankly I think you've got it exactly backwards - given sufficient iterations, democracy seems to always wind up picking the worst possible leaders.



Why then has democracy displaced both monarchy and collectivism as the most succesful political system*? If democracy were inneficient, I would have expected democracy to be displaced by competing systems - not the reverse.




* to date - who knows what the nest iteration of political systems will be.


A simple matter of fad and fashion.

Once upon a time, people believed in the divine right of kings (it was dogma and one could be excommunicated for doubting it, after all!) so monarchies had an advantage.

The currently popular mythology favours democracies.

What will be the next fad? Haven't the slightest. I still can't predict which way the skirts will go next year. Not that I try all that hard...





Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/1/2005 8:39:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raphael


A simple matter of fad and fashion.

Once upon a time, people believed in the divine right of kings (it was dogma and one could be excommunicated for doubting it, after all!) so monarchies had an advantage.

The currently popular mythology favours democracies.

What will be the next fad? Haven't the slightest. I still can't predict which way the skirts will go next year. Not that I try all that hard...




The global electorate has been conducting experiments political systems by trial and error for 3,000 years. The competition is fierce, often violent, life or death struggles for polities. When political systems compete head to head, struggling back and forth in competition ranging from cool to red hot war, it is the superior system that emerges victorious - not fashion or random happenstance.

For a century two competing political systems waged a global battle - Soviet Style Collectivism and US led Democracies. The battle and stakes were so inense and high that the world was divided into three camps - a First World of Democracies, a Second World of Collectivist States, and a Third World of undecided nations through which the first and second worlds fought proxy battles.

The superior system won, and the inferior system lost - the idea that the struggle ended randomly, via whim, is ludicrous. We can look at each iteration of the struggle, and use real metrics to measure the economic and military success of both systems.

The superior system won - as it always does. Competition does not create random results.




RiotGirl -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/1/2005 8:58:54 AM)

Who cares what hitler Did?

Farimir.. he'd of prolly sent ya to the gas chamber. So no matter his "good points" ya'd of been too dead to enjoy them.

heck, he'd of prolly of sent us all the gas chamber. Heck we can ALL create it right here in our own homes. (defeats the hitler intelligence theory.. if there was one)

um yeah.. Oh and on to the anti christ thing. anyone know anything about Nostrodamus?

He um.. spotted hitler a mile a way!




darkinshadows -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/1/2005 10:04:20 AM)

I have to agree with Raphael - whim.

Things change - what comes across as strong and positive, once it comes to a certain point - it fails and dies off...

Religions come and go - rising and falling in popularity

Kings and Queens and Monarchy

Partisans

Aristocracy and the french revolution.

Democracy may be the most powerful at the moment - but none know the future.
It all depends which spin doctor is spinning and which pockets are paying for the advertising.

Whatever - Hitler was an arse - a ruiner of his country - and a very sad little man.

Peace and Love




Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/1/2005 10:29:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

Who cares what hitler Did?

Farimir.. he'd of prolly sent ya to the gas chamber. So no matter his "good points" ya'd of been too dead to enjoy them.



I'm sort of stunned by that reply.

1) Who cares about history? I do - I care alot about history, and also literature (all art forms), natural sciences, political economy - do you really mean studying history and learning from the past is stupid?

2) How could you construe me as being a fan or cheerleader for National Socialism. It was horrible - Hitler was gastly - I'm saying that giving a stock line (Hitler was the anti-christ) instead of a naunced understanding of history robs you of a chance to learn, understad and have greater wisdom.






Lordandmaster -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/1/2005 10:38:23 AM)

At this point it might be helpful to review how this whole discussion came about.

Faramir: It's possible for liberals to find good in George W. Bush.
Lordandmaster: OK, I'll bite. What good do liberals find in George W. Bush? I think he's one of the worst presidents in American history.
Faramir: That means you don't believe in democracy. He was elected, and that means he can't be one of the worst leaders in American history.
Lordandmaster: That doesn't follow. Hitler was one of the worst leaders in human history, and a majority of Germans wanted him in power.
Faramir: You and I have different political models, and Hitler was a superior but deeply flawed leader.
Lordandmaster: Our "models" don't matter. And I'm more than curious to know what you mean about Hitler.

That spawned this thread. Faramir is using Hitler as evidence supporting his macrotheory, which he has already spelled out on a different thread. (I'm sure he'll be glad to give you the link.) And I stand by everything I've said. Bush is one of the worst presidents in American history (in any finite set, there is going to be one worst and one best member); democracies do not always pick the best available candidate; and Hitler was a failure by any possible standard, including a Nazi standard.

Lam




RiotGirl -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/1/2005 11:55:53 AM)

Ahh seemed like this thread was ABOUT hitler. and well i know enough about what he "did" to care less about the rest. Farimer.. the answer to your questions was. I specifially said HITLER. NOT HISTORY. Read man read.




darkinshadows -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/1/2005 12:35:15 PM)

quote:

At this point it might be helpful to review how this whole discussion came about.

Faramir: It's possible for liberals to find good in George W. Bush.
Lordandmaster: OK, I'll bite. What good do liberals find in George W. Bush? I think he's one of the worst presidents in American history.
Faramir: That means you don't believe in democracy. He was elected, and that means he can't be one of the worst leaders in American history.


Well... all I can say upon this thought though is - well - Bush wasn't elected in the first place - so much for 'democracy' - and well, in the second term - it was Bush, or His cousin - talk about keeping it in a 'democratic family'.

Bush is not a good president. America economics aren't great - the forgeign policy is laughable, their 'war against terrorism' is formed on lies and misconceptions, their human rights violations are not good, they have openly supported and still do support some very dangerous regimes and and their stance on both global warming and also debt relief is one of the worst in the world.

Bit like Hitler really.

BTW, I am not condemming the peoples - but the government. However, people should sit up, be informed and make their voice heard.

Peace and Love




Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/1/2005 1:28:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

Ahh seemed like this thread was ABOUT hitler. and well i know enough about what he "did" to care less about the rest. Farimer.. the answer to your questions was. I specifially said HITLER. NOT HISTORY. Read man read.


"What Hitler did" = History.

Think girl, think [;)]




DemonAngel -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/1/2005 3:29:38 PM)

The problem with democracy is that essentially you have no choice.America has a two party system and most people will vote the same way they always have, regardless.Inherited political views, state predjudice, whatever.Those that put thought into their choice are often faced with two candidate that they don't believe in.And in THAT situation, must choose the person they believe will cause the least damage.Even then,that doesn't always work, as (with the BushGore scenario)the person who wins isn't necessarily the person who gained the most votes.
In the UK, we have multiparty politics, but the reality is that we are still tied down(no pun intended)to two parties who stand a chance of winning.Conservative and Labour.
If your beliefs require you to vote for the Green Party, then your voice would never be heard as there is virtually no chance that a Green candidate will ever make it to parliment, for example.And even then, their loan voice would be drowned out by the childish masses of the main parties.
So whilst both countries espouse democracy,as the 'fairest' form of governments, we both have flawed systems which fail to accuratly represent the views of its peoples.
That, and the fact that psycopaths manage to get through the screening process*cheesy grin*

Demon

*footnote: To withdraw in disgust, is not the same as apathy.




MrThorns -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/1/2005 5:43:16 PM)

I'm really not understanding the logic of the argument. How does being elected via the democratic process, create an immunity from being a bad leader? Certainly, if we ranked all of the US President, there would be someone at the top of the list and someone at the bottom. (Granted, the list would be different due to varied differences of opinion.) So then, by Faramir's logic, every leader who has been elected through a democratic process, is a good leader?

Hitler was a piss-poor leader because:
He misled his people
Used Terror tactics to enforce discipline
Drove his country into ruin economically and socially
He had more faith in his Occult specialists than his Battlefield Commanders
Committed atrocities for which Germany is still paying for
Was blinded by his desire to make the world Aryan
Waged war to stimulate economic growth
Surrounded himself with lunatics as advisors

So how has his leadership been different than that of the current administration?
Has the US leadership misled it's people?(Just watch Fox "news")
Have we not used Terror tactics to enforce discipline? (Patriot Act/Threat Levels)
Economic ruin? (Hmm...what is the defecit nowadays?)
Put huge amounts of faith in the SECDEF to the point where good commanders have retired in disgust?
Guantanamo Bay? Abu Graide? Other, non-disclosed locations?
"We must bring democracy to the middle east!" That phrase ring a bell?
Surrounded by lunatics? The GOP Ratpack. (Although I still like Colin Powell and was happy to see him get away from the white house to save his chances for becoming POTUS one day.)

As for democracy being the superior government...how so? China seems to be doing damned well for themselves right about now...and my god! They are communists! They have a huge military force and a billion+ citizens. But communism is flawed, right? They have to fail one of these days. I mean...the USSR came crashing down because communism is flawed! (Although, they certainly have a lot more poverty, crime, and drug use nowadays than they did under communism.) Although, the USSR may have developed into a grand society...but they were caught up in a well-designed arms race, and had huge economic sactions imposed upon them. What was it that the Soviets did again?

Democracy appears to be superior because it seems to be popping up around the world. Dictators, Kings, Despots are being overthrown left and right to make way for the glories of democracy. But this huge cry for democracy only comes to countries that the US has sent CIA and SpecOps to... Could it be that this is simply Imperial expansionism under a different name?

Don't get me wrong...I love my country. I have just lost faith in our system of demockery, our foreign policies, and our leadership.

~Thorns




Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/1/2005 7:17:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
So then, by Faramir's logic, every leader who has been elected through a democratic process, is a good leader?


No Goodness - people are having a tough time reading. As I have said twice in the thread:

quote:

We got onto to this topic as part of a discussion of the aggregate wisdom of the electorate - the electorate picked the more effective of the choices at the time.


Not "democracy makes leaders good," but "democracy picks the best of the avilable choices."




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