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RE: Obama: No nukes if I'm president - 8/5/2007 2:28:55 AM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It was known in Britain. A good number of Poles fought in the RAF during the Battle of Britain, and they'd witnessed the SS death squads "cleaning up" behind the Wehrmacht in Poland - i.e. slaughtering Jews, Gypsies and Polish intelligentsia on the spot.
 
The camps were confirmed through intercepted messages, and British and French spies. Is it conceivable that a) The British didn't pass this info on to the Americans? and b) The Americans didn't have their own spies reporting the same info?
 
As for the world leader thing, that's divorced from reality. My view is that the world would like to see countries operating within their own borders and the UN acting as an arbitrator when countries such as the US and Britain overstep the mark.


Honestly, I had this chat with Ron earlier.  It really doesn't seem to be a question of if 'we' knew, but rather who 'we' were.  Certainly, some folks in the State department knew.  It's possible even some news agencies knew.  I likened it to a UFO; if we had undeniable proof that an extra terrestrial had actually landed, made contact with our government, and proof of life outside our solar system was established..... we'd never know.  It simply wasn't news that was 'fit' for an isolationist United States.  The UK, at that point, had it's own problems to deal with regarding the Nazis.

Had Japan never attacked the US, it's unlikely that the US would have ever gotten involved in 'Europe's war.'

Stephan


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RE: Obama: No nukes if I'm president - 8/5/2007 2:34:42 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueCollar

Personally, I have the view that there are certain conventions that we as humans (not just Americans or Iraqis or Jews or Muslims, but all people) all value and recognise as universally good or just.  And when we have a situation of individuals or states disregarding or actively undermining those conventions, I believe we are entitled to bring those people back in line.  Again, it doesn't have to end in conflict or anything like that, but there should be an element of  enforcement somewhere along the line.



It's not beyond a person of average intelligence to understand that economic gain from Iraq is reinvested back into the economy and keeps the cost of petrol, and other goods etc down, and allows wealth creation through amassing capital (which we all benefit from), or that Western countries buy in cheap resources from places like Pakistan for pennies, regardless of the fact children are working in sweat shops, or chase trade links with the Chinese with their appalling human rights record, or have governments that will deal with the Saudis regardless of their oppressive system (which we all blather on about how backward it is, but we don't mind the rewards from this).

Ultimately, when it comes to the noble values you mention, the rule of law and tolerance etc, well, yeah, I'm sure we all pay lip service to them, but they're firmly in the queue behind the big house and the third car. The Western world is in a real crisis, in my opinion, completely and utterely corrupt and bordering on nihilism...basically just invading places and killing people for possessions...which has no meaning or purpose whatsoever.

Western countries have much bigger issues than attempting to bring others in line. My preferred solution for all concerned would be a period of isolationism, where countries take a good, long, hard look at themselves, governments/media/corporations/the wider public.....they all have a role to play in developing a few morals and ethics, not least respecting the sovereignty of foreign nations.

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RE: Obama: No nukes if I'm president - 8/5/2007 2:49:14 AM   
NorthernGent


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The US government didn't understand that the USSR were about to emerge as the main player in Europe and attempt to spread a value system in contradiction to the American view of life? 'All ifs and buts, I suppose.

Regardless, it's fair to say that Western governments knew what was happening. I agree, by the way, that it's not for the Americans to get involved in the business of other countries, regardless of the event.

A point aside, it was as much a world war as Europe's war. If you chart the timeline from say 1700 to 2000, then it's fairly obvious that the main powers in the world, in 1930, were on collision course....including the US. Once countries start empire building, as the Americans had, then they're not going to be left alone to pursue their "isolationist" policies....someone, somewhere will mount a challenge.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 8/5/2007 3:02:50 AM >


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RE: Obama: No nukes if I'm president - 8/5/2007 3:04:02 AM   
Stephann


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NG,

While not strictly biographical, I'd give 'Armageddon' by Leon Uris a read. 

In short, no, the US had no clue what we were expecting out of the USSR.

I agree, though.  Empire building carries a military risk.  I am only pointing out that, had Japan focused on its interests towards it's west, instead of it's east, you would be speaking German right now.  Nazi Germany had sufficiant infrastructure to maintain its foothold in Europe indefinately.  Without D-Day, there would never have been a 'communist' threat.  Bah, it's a what-if game though.  I suspect there are a great number of people who owe their lives and their children's lives to the military action of the US in world war II.  Sadly, this is living in the glory of our grandfathers; it doesn't erase the shame of our brothers.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: Obama: No nukes if I'm president - 8/5/2007 4:23:14 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

NG,

While not strictly biographical, I'd give 'Armageddon' by Leon Uris a read. 

In short, no, the US had no clue what we were expecting out of the USSR.

 

 
I find it hard to believe that the US government hadn't considered at least 5 options and arrived at a most likely scenario.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I agree, though.  Empire building carries a military risk.  I am only pointing out that, had Japan focused on its interests towards it's west, instead of it's east, you would be speaking German right now.



We're agreed on the military risk, although I'd go further and say collision course.

As for the speaking German, there are about 5 very good reasons why that wouldn't have happened, but it's not important, so I'll give that one a swerve.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Nazi Germany had sufficiant infrastructure to maintain its foothold in Europe indefinately.  Without D-Day, there would never have been a 'communist' threat. 



All the evidence suggests otherwise.

a) The Nazi German government were a shambles. Militarily they were strong as German militarists had been preparing for war since 1925, but they had no idea how to run a country, however, with the exception of force and coercion. The economic and social structure would have collapsed around 1950.

b) If they couldn't successfully invade Britain in 1940, then it was only going to get worse for them. Britain had demilitarised from 1919, and only began to prepare around 1937, so Britons of the time had around 12 years to catch up. A significant advantage for Britain, however, was that the Germans held true to their misconstrued romanticist notions regarding women, whereas the British government employed total war and put everyone to work in some capacity or another. Around 1945 it would have been an even contest, as evidenced by Britain beginning to win battles (away from Britain) in 1942 in theatres which the Americans weren't involved. Ultimately, though, during the two world wars, the British paid the price for the British government's fingers in far too many pies.

The above two are debatable, this next one is not.

c) German war aims were really in the East (the west was a preventative war in an attempt to avoid a war on two fronts). They were fixated with racial war, and believed the Slavs presented a major threat to the very existence of the Germanic "race"....in a "them or us, death or glory" scenario. They were fully bought into the notion that humans compete for living space, hence the fixation on Lebensraum (in the East) which formed the basis of German war aims in both World Wars. As a result, they were on a collision course with the Russians, and there was only ever going to be one winner.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Bah, it's a what-if game though.  I suspect there are a great number of people who owe their lives and their children's lives to the military action of the US in world war II. 



Not sure about that Stephann. I think it's the usual case of governments making decisions in their interests and people who're not sure why they're following losing their lives as a consequence. Maybe the French and a few other continental Europeans owe their short-term independence to American, British, Canadian, Aussie, Indian, Russian etc etc soldiers.


< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 8/5/2007 4:25:24 AM >


_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Obama: No nukes if I'm president - 8/5/2007 8:21:49 AM   
Alumbrado


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Before the Tommyknockers eat this thread completely, leaving nothing but fragments of the Reich cluttering things.....


Regarding the OP... how did we get to the point that the more naive and Boy Scoutish someone is, the less qualified they are supposed to be for leadership, while being more corrupted and venal is now passed off as 'experienced'? How did that become a good thing? 

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RE: Obama: No nukes if I'm president - 8/5/2007 11:42:44 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueCollar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
We should accept a role of responsibility as a world leader, or we stay the hell out; including our 'economic interests.' 


I'd like to make a remark as a learned observer to the statement you've just made.

Now I'm not American, but rather a Canadian with a healthy respect for people of all nationalities and cultural backgrounds.  Despite my political, religious, and social outlooks and their contrast with the majority of American citizens, I hold my neighbours to the south in relatively high regard.

Lately, however, with the current policies and direction of the White House administration and obvious political and social trends throughout the nation as a whole, my regard ifs turning into disapointment more than anything else.  Not so much anger or frustration, but dissapointment in  the world's most powerful democracy for neglecting it's ability and will to do good throughout the world.  We're talking about the same country that, at the end of World War II, offered billions of dollars in aid and millions of hours of manpower to help rebuild a shattered Europe in the face of a growing Communist threat from Russia.  The Americans helped rebuild the highways, seaports, canals, and rail networks of France, Poland, Germany, Italy, and many more nations.  Since then, the US has also played a key role in  various peacekeeping operations throughout the world and helped spread democracy and freedom to many formerly-oppressed nations.    In the grans scale of things, the US has contributed greatly in a positve manner to the world in which we live and I hope it continues to do so as well.  I cannot stress this enough:  The United States has so much POTENTIAL to do so many good works throughout the world.  You've got the largest military, the most powerful economy, and, honestly, one of the most advanced political systems in the world.

But with all that said and done, there are times when the US has the ability to do good, but doesn't.  Or even worse, does something that goes against it's very principles as a nation.  Somehow it seems, someone has to completely mess things up.

Consider the aftermath of 9/11.  With the exception of a few fringe nations, You had the WORLD on your side.  For a few weeks, we were all New Yorkers.  The western powers as well as several former enemy states all pledged their support and displayed their condolences for the victims of the terrrorist attacks.  The United States was catapulted in the eyes of the international community as stoic and proud.  There was so much support and eagerness to get behind you and we promised to stand by you in reponse to the atrocities.

6 years later, it's all gone south.  What happened?  How did you're leaders bring you down to being hated and mocked on such a scale as you are now?  I think I know much of the answer, but it just goes to show that you were so highly regarded by so many, but now have lost that status in such a short amount of time.

There's really no point to what I'm saying.  And I'm not really trying to make any bold statements here.  I just had to make the comment in response to what you've hightlighted, Stephann.



BlueCollar, that's the problem, it's not part of the job description of our govt to be doing such things!
Our Congress is (supposed) to be a good steward of the people's money.
Of course other countries "like" the U.S. when we start "giving" them things!
If I gave you $10,000 wouldn't you "like" me?
However, the Congress is there to run our government, not to be a charity for foreign countries.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Obama: No nukes if I'm president - 8/6/2007 3:23:09 AM   
BlueCollar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

BlueCollar, that's the problem, it's not part of the job description of our govt to be doing such things!
Our Congress is (supposed) to be a good steward of the people's money.
Of course other countries "like" the U.S. when we start "giving" them things!
If I gave you $10,000 wouldn't you "like" me?
However, the Congress is there to run our government, not to be a charity for foreign countries.


Oh I understand and agree with quite a bit of what you're saying.  But if there is a massive public appeal for the government to say...send troops our humanitarian aid to a place like Darfur, wouldn't the government- as a representative of the public, be responsible for doing as the electorate demands?  In my opinion, if the public demands international intervention, then the government should have no choice but to acquiesce to that demand.

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RE: Obama: No nukes if I'm president - 8/6/2007 3:53:20 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Nazi Germany had sufficiant infrastructure to maintain its foothold in Europe indefinately.  Without D-Day, there would never have been a 'communist' threat. 

 
I disagree somewhat here. The problem Germany had and it was one it created itself and could have avoided, was that it made more enemies than it could deal with. Its invasion of the USSR ran into the ground because of the lack of troops and resources, not the fighting prowess of the Soviet army. The German kill ratio against the Russians was 15:1 but still the Russians kept coming. The Germans also couldn't supply their troops quick enough.
 
After D-day when the Germans made a counter offensive in the Ardenne against the Americans, it didn't fail because of the prowess of the American forces but because the German tanks ran out of fuel and the German army ran out of ammunition. If it had enough resources the Germans had every chance of reaching Antwerp and putting themselves in the position of a negotiated settlement.
 
The Germans just had too many enemies to fight. If they had limited their ambitions from the off they could have dominated Europe but they wouldn't have fully controled it. They certainly didn't have the resources to mount an invasion of Britain, there are enough German records in existence for us to know this. The German navy and airforce couldn't agree on a viable plan. The German army said it needed a concentrated beachead. Their airforce said it could protect such a beach head but that was something the German navy said it couldn't protect as the Royal Navy was to strong. The German airforce said it couldn't protect an extended beach head because the British planes flying from home soil would find it too easy to pick them off. In the end the Germans shelved their plans to invade Britain for the outside chance of  first destroying the British airforce on the ground and later bombing Britain into submission. One of the reasons for the failure of the Luftwsffe in the Battle of Britain was that Britain had the most advanced air defence system in the world at the time and to make matters worse, the Germans didn't have the right kind of aircraft for the battle they were trying to fight. To top that, despite the myth of German efficiency and British inefficiency, the British were building two planes to every one the Germans were building.
 
What was against Britain was that it had no army to talk of and what it did have, it was  equiped with obsolete hardware.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/6/2007 3:56:58 AM >


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RE: Obama: No nukes if I'm president - 8/6/2007 5:09:42 AM   
Stephann


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I've neglected this thread, and I'll be back to it later, but briefly MeatCleaver I'd say simply that it wasn't lack of resources, but poor planning.  Winning battle after battle, Hitler started believing his own press and ignoring the planning capacity of his own people.  "We are at the end of our resources in both personnel and materiel. We are about to be confronted with the dangers of deep winter." 27 November 1941, General Eduard Wagner.

It wasn't that he had too many enemies; it is that he took on too many enemies too soon.

Stephan


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Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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