RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning

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FirmhandKY -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 1:52:29 PM)
PS. Sinergy .... I'm STILL waiting for your "proof" that Bush "ordered the Fed to cut interest rates dramatically" . Firm

NorthernGent -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 2:03:35 PM)
Although I'm struggling to master clairvoyance, I'm fairly certain that someone spends his days furiously rocking backwards and forwards in his rocking chair, sucking his thumb and mumbling over and over......."we gonna win, these don't colours don't run"......"we gonna win, these colours don't run"......"we gonna win, these colours don't run".......

FirmhandKY -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 2:12:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Although I'm struggling to master clairvoyance, I'm fairly certain that someone spends his days furiously rocking backwards and forwards in his rocking chair, sucking his thumb and mumbling over and over......."we gonna win, these don't colours don't run"......"we gonna win, these colours don't run"......"we gonna win, these colours don't run"....... I'd guess this is just another example of "Ameri-envy" on your part, NG. [:D][:D] Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 2:35:15 PM)
Ok, since FB seems to want to lay all the deaths of US soldiers on Bush, I thought I'd do a little bit of research on an issue I mentioned earlier i.e. comparing US political activities against the causality figures, to see if there might possibly be some relationship. I'm sure a lot more can be added to this, but this is what I came up with in just a couple of minutes: Period Deaths Strengths Percent May-03 37 150,000 0.02% Jun-03 30 150,000 0.02% Jul-03 48 149,000 0.03% Aug-03 35 139,000 0.03% Sep-03 31 132,000 0.02% Oct-03 44 131,000 0.03% Nov-03 82 123,000 0.07% Dec-03 40 122,000 0.03% Saddam Captured Jan-04 47 122,000 0.04% Feb-04 20 115,000 0.02% Mar-04 52 130,000 0.04% Apr-04 135 137,000 0.10% May-04 80 138,000 0.06% Jun-04 42 138,000 0.03% Transfer of sovereignty to interim Iraqi Gov. Jul-04 54 140,000 0.04% Aug-04 66 140,000 0.05% Sep-04 80 138,000 0.06% Oct-04 64 138,000 0.05% Nov-04 137 138,000 0.10% US Elections Dec-04 72 148,000 0.05% Jan-05 107 150,000 0.07% Iraq Elections - Iraqi Transitional Government Feb-05 58 155,000 0.04% Mar-05 35 150,000 0.02% Apr-05 52 142,000 0.04% May-05 80 138,000 0.06% Jun-05 78 135,000 0.06% Jul-05 54 138,000 0.04% Aug-05 85 138,000 0.06% Sep-05 49 138,000 0.04% Oct-05 96 152,000 0.06% Nov-05 84 160,000 0.05% Dec-05 68 160,000 0.04% Elections under new Iraqi Constitution Jan-06 62 136,000 0.05% Feb-06 55 133,000 0.04% Mar-06 31 133,000 0.02% Apr-06 76 132,000 0.06% May-06 69 132,000 0.05% Current government of Iraq took office Jun-06 61 126,900 0.05% Jul-06 43 130,000 0.03% Aug-06 65 138,000 0.05% Democrats Unite to Urge Bush to Begin Iraq Pullout Sep-06 72 144,000 0.05% Oct-06 106 144,000 0.07% Nov-06 70 140,000 0.05% US Elections - Dems gain control of Congress Dec-06 112 140,000 0.08% Dem Congress-Elect announce plans to force US out of Iraq Jan-07 83 132,000 0.06% Dem Congress / "Surge" announced Feb-07 81 135,000 0.06% Dem House votes non-binding "retreat" resolution Mar-07 81 142,000 0.06% Dem Congress Apr-07 104 146,000 0.07% Reid: "war is lost"/ Peliso visits Syria /Congress votes to force withdrawal May-07 126 149,700 0.08% Dem Congress Jun-07 101 157,000 0.06% Iraq surge a failure, top Democrats tell Bush Jul-07 80 160,000 0.05% Dem Congress Averages 69.0 139,698 0.05% What conclusions can we draw about the awareness of the insurgents and terrorist in Iraq, of US politics? Firm edited to add: Here's an interesting link: Congressional actions to end the Iraq War in the 110th Congress

LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 2:50:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64 "Live for something rather than die for nothing.” "Almighty and most merciful Father, we humbly beseech Thee, of Thy great goodness, to restrain these immoderate rains with which we have had to contend. Grant us fair weather for Battle. Graciously hearken to us as soldiers who call Thee that, armed with Thy power, we may advance from victory to victory, and crush the oppression and wickedness of our enemies, and establish Thy justice among men and nations. Amen." GENERAL GEORGE S. PATTON you know it is easy to be a arm chair warrior... sit on the side lines why others fight for your rights or freedoms Before I respond (I assume you are addressing your remarks to me), would you mind clarifying what you mean? Your quotes and comments could be taken in more than one way. Firm that comment was for anyone dising our military over there.. i am proud to have serve and i feel bad i am not with them kicking but. it is all about the mission

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 3:43:11 PM)
Keep the righteous indignation and keep convincing yourself that you are helping them in some way. Like I said, put up or shut up. One link is at least an online petition to get congress to do more for the VA, the other is one that leads to a site where you can research a charity that goes directly to military families. The war is not going to end today, 08/06/07, but along with your ranting you can do a little something today to help them. Instead you justify it, rather than take at least some action. Orion quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf This post in not in support of withdraw or staying, it is just that I am sick of people using how many are dying over there as a reason, if they are not helping the military in other ways. Orion There is no better way to help them stay alive, than to stop killing 2 or 3 every single day. There is no better way to do that, than to bring them home now. The ones who die today, will die because YOU AND I did not bring them home safely, yesterday. The ones who will die tomorrow, will die because YOU AND I did not bring them home safely, today.

farglebargle -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 3:57:06 PM)
quote: The war is not going to end today, 08/06/07, Why not? Because YOU don't want it to? Because YOU don't care to save those who will die tomorrow, by bringing them home today?

farglebargle -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 4:10:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY 1. I think the "New Way Forward" applied to some programs and operations prior to the adoption of the current strategy in Iraq, so you're use of it is inaccurate. I got it from the post YOU REFERENCED explaining YOUR POSITION. A link to it - or direct quote - would be appreciated. It's back in the read this link to the thread with your comments which you gave kittensol earlier in this thread. sigh I know this is a lost cause, but .... the term "New Way Forward" was used by caitlyn in her title, but it was not something I used, referenced or addressed in my reply to her. I'm not sure why you think that's important, but OK. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY What you are saying - simply enough - is that there is no moral percept, nor ethical or political situation possible in which the loss of a single life is more or equally important as a principle or a long-term result? There's 2 aspects to that I'd like to address. Firstly, I'd say that there situations where the loss of a single life is important as a principle or long term result. Sure. Since you agree that there are situations in which the loss of life is less important than a principle ... then I can understand that your use of only the loss of life as a measuring stick for the "success" or "failure" in Iraq is simply another way of saying that - in this case - there is no principle involved that rises to this importance? What gives you reason to believe that your moral views and beliefs are the only correct ones, and must be adhered to by everyone else? quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle That's a VERY DIFFERENT CASE than we have here with this Unconstitutional experiment in Nation Building. CRIMINAL FRAUD. The President isn't specifically authorized in the Constitution to occupy the White House, is he? I don't rightly believe so. What's your point? You think he needs to vacate the place, and find his OWN place to live on his OWN dime, and not waste our tax dollars? I don't think I would disagree. quote: Is Congress specifically authorized to require the President to withdraw troops from Iraq (other than simply cutting off all funding?). What is the penalty for criminal fraud, and what is the remedy in civil court? quote: You claim that the current administrative is guilty of "criminal fraud". In which court was Bush convicted of this? What does the Constitution say about establishing the guilt or innocence of an accused? Well, first you get an honest USAtty to bring the case before a grand jury... The charge would be 18 USC 371, just for openers, but that's a felony, so it's sufficient for our purposes... But being convicted or set innocent isn't really an issue to you? Is OJ Guilty? Well he was found Not Guilty in Criminal trial, but was found Guilty in the Civil part, how would you call it? I look at the evidence, and to me, it is clear that the chargable parties are guilty. What does the pattern of representations which are either : (a) made with knowledge that it is untrue; (b) a half-truth; (c) made without a reasonable basis or with reckless indifference as to whether it is, in fact, true or false; or (d) literally true, but intentionally presented in a manner reasonably calculated to deceive a person of ordinary prudence and intelligence. The knowing concealment or omission of information that a reasonable person would consider important in deciding an issue also constitutes fraud. signify to you? quote: quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY In your world, there are no "gray areas"! In a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, damn right there are no gray areas. EVERY SINGLE FEDERAL POWER IS EXPLICITLY ENUMERATED. So ... tell me again ... the purpose of the US Supreme Court in the context of our three branches of government? Firm Seems pretty clear to me... Section 2. The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;—to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;—to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;—to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;—to Controversies between two or more States;—between a State and Citizens of another State;—between Citizens of different States;—between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects. In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make. The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 4:31:20 PM)
But ALL of those deaths took place under Bush but you want to pretend that it is all dems fault. Fucking unbelievable stupidity, hell the highest percentage was early on and the fact that it keeps getting worse you want to blame on the one group who predicted this mess would happen and NOT blame the ones who ignored that and caused it. Fucking unbelieveable stupidity but that explains why people can be Republicans I guess.

LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 4:59:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael But ALL of those deaths took place under Bush but you want to pretend that it is all dems fault. Fucking unbelievable stupidity, hell the highest percentage was early on and the fact that it keeps getting worse you want to blame on the one group who predicted this mess would happen and NOT blame the ones who ignored that and caused it. Fucking unbelieveable stupidity but that explains why people can be Republicans I guess. We can always send ya on the banana boat to Venezuela and you can hang with Hugo Chavez i am sure you will be best buds.. this war is nothing like the wars of the past.. what makes this so different. if we pull out they wil come after us. there is no doubt in my mind they will show up on our shores doing suicide bombings in schools. arenas, malls, they have already proven it. dose not get that much simpler.

farglebargle -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 5:09:53 PM)
quote: this war is nothing like the wars of the past.. what makes this so different. if we pull out they will come after us. I call BULLSHIT! The factions in Iraq can't even get it together enough to unify THEMSELVES, how the hell do you expect them to be a threat to anyone in America. More of a threat than the fucked up levees in NOLA and the bridges falling down, that is... quote: there is no doubt in my mind they will show up on our shores doing suicide bombings in schools. arenas, malls, they have already proven it. dose not get that much simpler. Aren't you brave enough to pay the price of freedom and liberty, namely accepting the risk of OTHER PEOPLE enjoying Freedom and Liberty, and are you rejecting YOUR DUTY to protect and defend YOURSELF, in some way that you expect to be protected, like some feeble minded ward of the state or orphan? There's a 2nd Amendment, us it, and IF you ever see a terrorist, do what needs doing. Don't waste MY TAX DOLLARS cause you're unwilling to step up and do what needs doing, when it needs to be done. I'd rather pay welfare to crack-whores than spend a dime defending people too lazy and irresponsible to defend themselves. Get back to me when Al Qaeda's rolling a T-72 down the Adirondack Northway from Canada, we have some surprises for 'em about Saratoga way...

Sinergy -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 5:16:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY PS. Sinergy .... I'm STILL waiting for your "proof" that Bush "ordered the Fed to cut interest rates dramatically" . Firm Firm Hanky, How does it feel to wait? Sinergy p.s. By the way, I already agreed that the interest rate was cut by Greenspan and it was speculation that it was at the behest of Anencephalyboy. p.p.s. Takes a big person to argue they are right, takes an even bigger person to say they are wrong.

domiguy -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 5:28:13 PM)
Firm, You strike me as an intelligent guy.....Maybe one of the 24% but nonetheless an intelligent guy....When do intelligent people stop swallowing piss? It sucks....Remember when the Clintonaires would defend Clinton through his lies and discretions.....Didn't it piss you off? It sucks to be Clinton's or Bush's bitch....When does a rationale human being simply say I have had enough? This was never about removing Saddam, or establishing a gov't voted in by the Iraqi population, or WMD'S ....This is pure and simple an occupation....The American public has been lied to every step of the way. We were not invited to give the Iraqi's a democracy....Who says they want one? Or would be better off with one....I'm sure there are many a dead Iraqi that would rather live alive under Saddam then dead under the flag of a U.S. franchise. We have brought them nothing thus far save devastation... We have become hated abroad....we have become fearful...We have become the biggest bunch of pussies ever to be called a "Super Power." We see the enemy everywhere.....And our politicians are playing into those fears not to be pictured as weak. You simply cannot stop an attack by a small group of people in an open society....Our strength should be shown in not being fearful of the next attack but by how quickly and resiliently we will bounce back from it....."Is that all you got?" should be our battle cry. I went off on a tangent...oops. Please don't anyone become Bush's sub....It is sooo extremely unflattering.

LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 5:29:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY 1. I think the "New Way Forward" applied to some programs and operations prior to the adoption of the current strategy in Iraq, so you're use of it is inaccurate. I got it from the post YOU REFERENCED explaining YOUR POSITION. A link to it - or direct quote - would be appreciated. It's back in the read this link to the thread with your comments which you gave kittensol earlier in this thread. sigh I know this is a lost cause, but .... the term "New Way Forward" was used by caitlyn in her title, but it was not something I used, referenced or addressed in my reply to her. I'm not sure why you think that's important, but OK. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY What you are saying - simply enough - is that there is no moral percept, nor ethical or political situation possible in which the loss of a single life is more or equally important as a principle or a long-term result? There's 2 aspects to that I'd like to address. Firstly, I'd say that there situations where the loss of a single life is important as a principle or long term result. Sure. Since you agree that there are situations in which the loss of life is less important than a principle ... then I can understand that your use of only the loss of life as a measuring stick for the "success" or "failure" in Iraq is simply another way of saying that - in this case - there is no principle involved that rises to this importance? What gives you reason to believe that your moral views and beliefs are the only correct ones, and must be adhered to by everyone else? quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle That's a VERY DIFFERENT CASE than we have here with this Unconstitutional experiment in Nation Building. CRIMINAL FRAUD. The President isn't specifically authorized in the Constitution to occupy the White House, is he? I don't rightly believe so. What's your point? You think he needs to vacate the place, and find his OWN place to live on his OWN dime, and not waste our tax dollars? I don't think I would disagree. quote: Is Congress specifically authorized to require the President to withdraw troops from Iraq (other than simply cutting off all funding?). What is the penalty for criminal fraud, and what is the remedy in civil court? quote: You claim that the current administrative is guilty of "criminal fraud". In which court was Bush convicted of this? What does the Constitution say about establishing the guilt or innocence of an accused? Well, first you get an honest USAtty to bring the case before a grand jury... The charge would be 18 USC 371, just for openers, but that's a felony, so it's sufficient for our purposes... But being convicted or set innocent isn't really an issue to you? Is OJ Guilty? Well he was found Not Guilty in Criminal trial, but was found Guilty in the Civil part, how would you call it? I look at the evidence, and to me, it is clear that the chargable parties are guilty. What does the pattern of representations which are either : (a) made with knowledge that it is untrue; (b) a half-truth; (c) made without a reasonable basis or with reckless indifference as to whether it is, in fact, true or false; or (d) literally true, but intentionally presented in a manner reasonably calculated to deceive a person of ordinary prudence and intelligence. The knowing concealment or omission of information that a reasonable person would consider important in deciding an issue also constitutes fraud. signify to you? quote: quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY In your world, there are no "gray areas"! In a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, damn right there are no gray areas. EVERY SINGLE FEDERAL POWER IS EXPLICITLY ENUMERATED. So ... tell me again ... the purpose of the US Supreme Court in the context of our three branches of government? Firm Seems pretty clear to me... Section 2. The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;—to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;—to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;—to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;—to Controversies between two or more States;—between a State and Citizens of another State;—between Citizens of different States;—between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects. In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make. The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed. you know i had something to say but then i decided ... i am just to lazy to type out a book to try and make you see. how important it is we take this all the way.. i am sure by some act of god or something it will come to you that this war is just and that is all i got to say about that

luckydog1 -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 5:32:11 PM)
"What does the pattern of representations which are either : (a) made with knowledge that it is untrue; (b) a half-truth; (c) made without a reasonable basis or with reckless indifference as to whether it is, in fact, true or false; or (d) literally true, but intentionally presented in a manner reasonably calculated to deceive a person of ordinary prudence and intelligence. The knowing concealment or omission of information that a reasonable person would consider important in deciding an issue also constitutes fraud. signify to you? " It signifies one of your average posts farg...

farglebargle -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 5:54:07 PM)
quote: you know i had something to say but then i decided ... i am just to lazy to type out a book to try and make you see. how important it is we take this all the way.. i am sure by some act of god or something it will come to you that this war is just and that is all i got to say about that Then why did Bush have to lie and commit fraud to start it? If it's "Right" and "Just" ( see, that binary-logic is going to catch you up... ) then why didn't Bush HONESTLY tell Congress what's up, and then ask for a declaration of War, and then draft 2 million people so that we could FIELD 500,000 with a reserve force of another 500,000 at the beginning?

farglebargle -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 5:58:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 "What does the pattern of representations which are either : (a) made with knowledge that it is untrue; (b) a half-truth; (c) made without a reasonable basis or with reckless indifference as to whether it is, in fact, true or false; or (d) literally true, but intentionally presented in a manner reasonably calculated to deceive a person of ordinary prudence and intelligence. The knowing concealment or omission of information that a reasonable person would consider important in deciding an issue also constitutes fraud. signify to you? " It signifies one of your average posts farg... Well, it's not like we're going over any new material, you know there are Overt Acts A to N supporting the charges, and that no-one has ever done a thorough defense against the charges. But The Law is The Law, and if you're going to hold Smoky McCrackhead on the corner accountable, you have to hold George W. Bush. Otherwise, it's all just hypocritical bullshit.

LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 6:24:42 PM)
where is Glen Beck when you need him or roush lol

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 6:27:50 PM)
Because I am realistic, and not smoking whatever you are, apparently. So if everyone agreed tomorrow, how exactly would the process get the home in a day? Now that I followed your Red Herring a bit, do you support the welfare of the military in other ways? Orion quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: The war is not going to end today, 08/06/07, Why not? Because YOU don't want it to? Because YOU don't care to save those who will die tomorrow, by bringing them home today?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning (8/6/2007 6:29:26 PM)
Nevermind. There is a little red hand I am going to use because frankly there is no getting through your mental disability to understand and address things. Orion

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