Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (Full Version)

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Bobkgin -> Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 11:51:09 AM)

... otherwise entitled: "Being Bratty Gettsa Beating".

Now, I've nine dogs. Mom, Dad and their seven pups (who are now five years old). I learned a long time ago that you never ever ever reward bad behaviour.

Because if you do, they repeat it endlessly expecting you to reward them again.

Ol' Pavlov was onto something.

In the case of the "bratty" sub, as I understand it, bad behaviour is rewarded with a beating (which is what they crave, as I understand it).

Does that not encourage -more- bad behaviour?

(O.o)

And since, for the purpose of this discussion, "bad behaviour" might best be defined as "irritating" (okay, maybe I'm being charitable ;-), isn't the reward actually -encouraging- the "brat" to "irritate" the one who does the beating on an on-going basis?

(o.O)

Does anyone have any idea what the average life-span of a relationship with a "brat" might be?

(O.O)



Rover -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 11:56:10 AM)

You're assuming that the Dominant actually wants to discourage that "bad" behavior (an assessment that is exceptionally relative to the individual).  If that were the case, then rewarding it would indeed be counterproductive.
 
However, it has been my observation and experience that most of the Dominants that end up with "bratty" submissives (or whatever similar term you'd like to use) do so for a reason.  They actually enjoy that behavior, and are engaged in a mutual role play that is mutually gratifying.
 
Whatever floats yer boat.
 
John



DarkDaddyZ -> RE: Rewarding bad behavior? (o.O) (8/3/2007 11:59:23 AM)

Wow! That's not a simple answer (or a simple question).  Because I have mixed opinions on bratting.  Usually I'm not happy if my slave/partner brats because I interpret that to mean "Daddy you aren't taking care of me, Daddy I need attention."  Instead of simply communicating "I want you to beat me."  However, if we were in a role playing "scene" (and we do occasionally role play) it would be different.

I've never been interested in partners who clearly state they are brats, in fact I avoid them like the plague because my way of thinking isn't about bratting to play but that doesn't make that the law for everyone.  In past relationships when my partners acted out or "bratted" (is that such a word) it was due to lack of attention and my self esteem suffered from that.  Of course we'd play and it'd be hot and all but we'd both feel like doo-doo afterward for 2 reasons 1. Her feelings were "I had to brat to get play, to get attention."  2. My feelings were "she had to brat to get play and get my attention." (Consider this wasn't what we agreed on in our relationship).  In my power exchange relationships it's about US getting our needs met, if she felt she had to brat to get her needs met then based on what we agreed upon, she wasn't. And that didn't make me feel good.

I don't want to reward "bad behavior" I don't want bad behavior.  I realize that all relationships have their issues and you have to discuss it.

Side-note: This is coming from someone who doesn't really like brats for his personal relationship I am sure there are some into that type of play.

Lastly I've know people in the lifestyle that identified as a brat 10 years ago and still identify as a brat today.



LadyPact -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 12:00:17 PM)

Being One who doesn't care for brats one bit, I do not reward bad behavior in any way.  If anything, I will withhold play from a brat to show them that type of behavior will not be tolerated.
 
As to the life span of a relationship with a brat, I can say in My case that it isn't very long.  Very short and not so sweet.



BitaTruble -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 12:02:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin


Does anyone have any idea what the average life-span of a relationship with a "brat" might be?

(O.O)


I'd say it was dependent upon the compatibility between the brat and their partner. High compatibility might mean life-long.. low compatibility might mean 15 mins.

Celeste



MasterMike04103 -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 12:06:52 PM)

If a bratty sub is being a brat to get their ass tanned, I would do the exact oppiset of that and NOT give them any kind of punishment. In my relationship with my sub, she doesn't get beaten for a punishment, because to me that would incurage her to be more bratty or bad. I have been known to use more affective punishments, thinks like corner time, limited contact with me for a certian ammount of time, writing prompts, and the revokation of a favorite activity for a period of time.

So yeah, beating them for being bad just teaches them that being bad is ok cuz that will get them what they want.

Mike



RCdc -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 12:08:30 PM)

You are asking a question with too many facets for answers.
 
You use the analagy of dogs.  I don't know the breed of your dog, but many people choose a dog because of the temprement.  If you like a dog that needs alot of attention, that is what you get.  Personal choice means you are attracted to a certain type of person.  Brats have a certain temprement, just like a dog.  Service submissives are different.  So you treat them, like different breeds of dog, differently.  Same goes for dominants.
 
You reep what you sow.  Some people like a brat - some like a more passive person.  Not all brats enjoy 'punishment of beating' so you are making an assumption there - not all brats are masochists.
 
Peace
the.dark.



adoracat -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 12:16:59 PM)

one of the things Sir asked me about when we were first talking was brattiness..   now, i will admit to being a little silly and doing highly over-the-top pouting and bratty behavior for a minute or two, but that isnt my nature.  i'm much more likely to say "can we talk?  i need some attention." 

if Sir doesnt know what's broke, how can he fix it?  if i dont take care of myself by saying something, he cant know about it.

its then up to him to decide what he wishes to do about the information.

kitten, whose Sir listens most of the time....



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 12:32:58 PM)

It's much more a simple fact of "reward will increase the likelihood of a behavior repeating" and "punishment will decrease the likelihood of a behavior repeating"

All you have to do is ask whether you want that particular behavior to be repeated.  Some people find X behavior good, and some find it bad.



GhitaAmati -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 12:44:28 PM)

Im not really a brat...more of a smart ass....and there are times people see my personality as being over the top bratty...but the truth is Im not doing it for attention or to get a beating..if I want a beating I tell Sir I want a beating...If I make a smart assed coment, he generally just laughs cause that was my whole reason behind making the smart assed comment..if we cant laugh at ourselves, who can we laugh at? If Sir hit me everytime I made a joke, Id probably stop making jokes, and then I wouldt be myself and he'd get tired of me because he loves me for who I am now, smart assed comments and all.

Not to say I dont understand there are times its best to be a bit more serious though....



slaveish -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 12:54:13 PM)

Bratting can be a screech for attention; thus, remove the attention and squelch the bratting.



MaamJay -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 1:40:50 PM)

I don't like brats, I don't want a relationship with one, been there, done that and it was painful. I don't mind a great sense of humour and a bit of cheekiness as long as they will pull back the instant they see they are getting close to going over "My line". This means they have to be attentive and not just thinking of themselves. I want one who is willingly obedient and stricken with remorse if they do goof up, especially if there was deliberate disobedience involved. And along with the remorse has to come the learning capacity to avoid similar mistakes in the future and the willingness to work at that. My relationship with brats in future? Just won't get started. Having recently found a sub with great potential, this shouldn't be an issue YAY!

I never punish with impact play as I choose to use that as "PLAY" ie reward/fun/fulfillment etc. Even with someone who didn't particularly enjoy pain, I would still not use it as punishment as that would in effect punish Me for enjoying the delivery of it and spoil My delight in a sub that was willing to surrender to it in obedience. I try to make the punishment fit the crime and make it something they REALLY don't like. I start small and escalate if the bad behaviour escalates. For eg, My new fem sub is unaccustomed to wearing skirts. I want her to wear skirts, so while she was visiting here I had her wear them. Now she is away from Me again, I clearly set out the rule that she was to wear one during the day till a certain hour. she broke that rule by changing an hour early. Given that she is new etc My punishment was light ... for the next 2 days she is to wear a skirt for an hour past the original time. In other words, I've "seen her hour and raised her one" to borrow from poker. Simple, appropriate ... and hopefully effective! (Actually I rather suspect the feeling of embarrassment that will hit if she spots this post will be even more effective [;)]). Should she be silly enough to break the rule again, the punishment would escalate, in that she might be required to wear the skirt for extra time every day for a week and report in by webcam throughout the day to prove it. she doesn't want to be treated like a child and I don't want to treat her that way so I doubt that will be necessary ... but knowing I could do that is a reasonable "threat".

Maam Jay aka violet[A]



earthycouple -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 1:50:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin


In the case of the "bratty" sub, as I understand it, bad behaviour is rewarded with a beating (which is what they crave, as I understand it).  What makes you think that being bratty or anything else is rewarded with beatings?  What if beatings aren't a reward for someone?  What if someone HATES beatings?  Sounds like "punishment" to me.  I'd also like to know why you think that some people don't LOVE bratty behavior?  Why can't I like fire and spice in my sub?  And if I do...I'd sure as hell "reward" it.

Does that not encourage -more- bad behaviour?

(O.o)

And since, for the purpose of this discussion, "bad behaviour" might best be defined as "irritating" (okay, maybe I'm being charitable ;-), isn't the reward actually -encouraging- the "brat" to "irritate" the one who does the beating on an on-going basis?  People who don't like what their sub is doing correct that behavior.  They don't encourage it.  YOU, OP are presuming every human being loves to be "beaten".  Many many subs don't like spankings or beating or whatever.  And OP, many many dominants do not "punish" no matter what someone does.  Punishment is not for adults as far as I'm concerned.

(o.O)

Does anyone have any idea what the average life-span of a relationship with a "brat" might be?  What? 

(O.O)



AquaticSub -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 2:10:25 PM)

quote:

In the case of the "bratty" sub, as I understand it, bad behaviour is rewarded with a beating (which is what they crave, as I understand it).

Does that not encourage -more- bad behaviour?


Only if they like beatings. Not every sub does, you know.
quote:


And since, for the purpose of this discussion, "bad behaviour" might best be defined as "irritating" (okay, maybe I'm being charitable ;-), isn't the reward actually -encouraging- the "brat" to "irritate" the one who does the beating on an on-going basis?

Again, only if they enjoy it. My owner never punishes with spankings because I do enjoy them. I have to write essays.
quote:


Does anyone have any idea what the average life-span of a relationship with a "brat" might be?



Yet again, it depends. Some of the things that I do others find bratty. However, they only endear me further to Valyraen. One person's brat is another person's delight. You'd have to get into more specific behavior to get more specific answers.



MagiksSlave -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 2:57:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

You're assuming that the Dominant actually wants to discourage that "bad" behavior (an assessment that is exceptionally relative to the individual).  If that were the case, then rewarding it would indeed be counterproductive.
 
However, it has been my observation and experience that most of the Dominants that end up with "bratty" submissives (or whatever similar term you'd like to use) do so for a reason.  They actually enjoy that behavior, and are engaged in a mutual role play that is mutually gratifying.
 
Whatever floats yer boat.
 
John


Exactly!!

A Dom that doesnt want a brat and has a brat will most likely not hold on to said brat for to long. so no the relationship wouldnt last, but not because of anything other then incompatability.

ms



MagiksSlave -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 2:59:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

In the case of the "bratty" sub, as I understand it, bad behaviour is rewarded with a beating (which is what they crave, as I understand it).

Does that not encourage -more- bad behaviour?


Only if they like beatings. Not every sub does, you know.
quote:


And since, for the purpose of this discussion, "bad behaviour" might best be defined as "irritating" (okay, maybe I'm being charitable ;-), isn't the reward actually -encouraging- the "brat" to "irritate" the one who does the beating on an on-going basis?

Again, only if they enjoy it. My owner never punishes with spankings because I do enjoy them. I have to write essays.
quote:


Does anyone have any idea what the average life-span of a relationship with a "brat" might be?



Yet again, it depends. Some of the things that I do others find bratty. However, they only endear me further to Valyraen. One person's brat is another person's delight. You'd have to get into more specific behavior to get more specific answers.


Bingo, there are behaviors that both Dom and sub have that not all Doms and subs like and there for they do not seek out those with those perticular atributes. Im very opinionated so a Dom that doesnt seek an opinionated sub would not be happy with me, and indeed I would not be happy with them.

ms



Joseff -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/3/2007 8:53:15 PM)

Very simply, punishment should not be enjoyed by the 'punishee'. If it is, its not punishment.
Joseff



lateralist1 -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/4/2007 5:40:14 AM)

Know thyself, know thy sub, and agree on discipline if required in the relationship. Consensuality in all things. I don't want to treat a sub as a child but if that is the subs need I have a choice live with it, and hope it changes. Or walk away.
Relationships have to fulfil both people's needs or eventually they will break down or just become a bad habit . Of course that's only a theory until I find a sub.



came4U -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/4/2007 5:52:20 AM)

I tend to agree with Rover.

A dominant might choose that type of submissive, maybe he thinks he can stop/change her overnight, or deep down not want much of a drastic change.

Yet, I am starting to think that maybe bratty types are just at a loss of essential communication skills (as far as being intimate is concerned) and maybe the 'bratness' comes out as a means to imply 'hey hey, MAKE me love you, MAKE me show respect' etc.?? 

And the couple that engages in such banter (fun to them) ends up with a sub that is 'temporarily relieved or secure enough to be intimate' for a while, until her confusion begins again. 

Would then the brattiness disolve or become more frequent???

just wondering. 



came4U -> RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) (8/4/2007 5:53:35 AM)

sorry, I meant Would then the brattiness disolve and become less frequent??? 




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