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Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 11:51:09 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

... otherwise entitled: "Being Bratty Gettsa Beating".

Now, I've nine dogs. Mom, Dad and their seven pups (who are now five years old). I learned a long time ago that you never ever ever reward bad behaviour.

Because if you do, they repeat it endlessly expecting you to reward them again.

Ol' Pavlov was onto something.

In the case of the "bratty" sub, as I understand it, bad behaviour is rewarded with a beating (which is what they crave, as I understand it).

Does that not encourage -more- bad behaviour?

(O.o)

And since, for the purpose of this discussion, "bad behaviour" might best be defined as "irritating" (okay, maybe I'm being charitable ;-), isn't the reward actually -encouraging- the "brat" to "irritate" the one who does the beating on an on-going basis?

(o.O)

Does anyone have any idea what the average life-span of a relationship with a "brat" might be?

(O.O)

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 8/3/2007 11:52:03 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 11:56:10 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

You're assuming that the Dominant actually wants to discourage that "bad" behavior (an assessment that is exceptionally relative to the individual). If that were the case, then rewarding it would indeed be counterproductive.

However, it has been my observation and experience that most of the Dominants that end up with "bratty" submissives (or whatever similar term you'd like to use) do so for a reason. They actually enjoy that behavior, and are engaged in a mutual role play that is mutually gratifying.

Whatever floats yer boat.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 2

RE: Rewarding bad behavior? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 11:59:23 AM

DarkDaddyZ

Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline

Wow! That's not a simple answer (or a simple question). Because I have mixed opinions on bratting. Usually I'm not happy if my slave/partner brats because I interpret that to mean "Daddy you aren't taking care of me, Daddy I need attention." Instead of simply communicating "I want you to beat me." However, if we were in a role playing "scene" (and we do occasionally role play) it would be different.

I've never been interested in partners who clearly state they are brats, in fact I avoid them like the plague because my way of thinking isn't about bratting to play but that doesn't make that the law for everyone. In past relationships when my partners acted out or "bratted" (is that such a word) it was due to lack of attention and my self esteem suffered from that. Of course we'd play and it'd be hot and all but we'd both feel like doo-doo afterward for 2 reasons 1. Her feelings were "I had to brat to get play, to get attention." 2. My feelings were "she had to brat to get play and get my attention." (Consider this wasn't what we agreed on in our relationship). In my power exchange relationships it's about US getting our needs met, if she felt she had to brat to get her needs met then based on what we agreed upon, she wasn't. And that didn't make me feel good.

I don't want to reward "bad behavior" I don't want bad behavior. I realize that all relationships have their issues and you have to discuss it.

Side-note: This is coming from someone who doesn't really like brats for his personal relationship I am sure there are some into that type of play.

Lastly I've know people in the lifestyle that identified as a brat 10 years ago and still identify as a brat today.

_____________________________

"Flirting is part of the job description." DJ Jesus (Lucy Daughter Of The Devil)

Vanilla Official Music Page http://www.myspace.com/djzulu

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 3

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 12:00:17 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Being One who doesn't care for brats one bit, I do not reward bad behavior in any way. If anything, I will withhold play from a brat to show them that type of behavior will not be tolerated.

As to the life span of a relationship with a brat, I can say in My case that it isn't very long. Very short and not so sweet.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 4

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 12:02:00 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Does anyone have any idea what the average life-span of a relationship with a "brat" might be?

(O.O)

I'd say it was dependent upon the compatibility between the brat and their partner. High compatibility might mean life-long.. low compatibility might mean 15 mins.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 5

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 12:06:52 PM

MasterMike04103

Posts: 143
Joined: 7/24/2004
Status: offline

If a bratty sub is being a brat to get their ass tanned, I would do the exact oppiset of that and NOT give them any kind of punishment. In my relationship with my sub, she doesn't get beaten for a punishment, because to me that would incurage her to be more bratty or bad. I have been known to use more affective punishments, thinks like corner time, limited contact with me for a certian ammount of time, writing prompts, and the revokation of a favorite activity for a period of time.

So yeah, beating them for being bad just teaches them that being bad is ok cuz that will get them what they want.

Mike

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 6

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 12:08:30 PM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

You are asking a question with too many facets for answers.

You use the analagy of dogs. I don't know the breed of your dog, but many people choose a dog because of the temprement. If you like a dog that needs alot of attention, that is what you get. Personal choice means you are attracted to a certain type of person. Brats have a certain temprement, just like a dog. Service submissives are different. So you treat them, like different breeds of dog, differently. Same goes for dominants.

You reep what you sow. Some people like a brat - some like a more passive person. Not all brats enjoy 'punishment of beating' so you are making an assumption there - not all brats are masochists.

Peace
the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 7

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 12:16:59 PM

adoracat

Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline

one of the things Sir asked me about when we were first talking was brattiness.. now, i will admit to being a little silly and doing highly over-the-top pouting and bratty behavior for a minute or two, but that isnt my nature. i'm much more likely to say "can we talk? i need some attention."

if Sir doesnt know what's broke, how can he fix it? if i dont take care of myself by saying something, he cant know about it.

its then up to him to decide what he wishes to do about the information.

kitten, whose Sir listens most of the time....

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 8

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 12:32:58 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

It's much more a simple fact of "reward will increase the likelihood of a behavior repeating" and "punishment will decrease the likelihood of a behavior repeating"

All you have to do is ask whether you want that particular behavior to be repeated. Some people find X behavior good, and some find it bad.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to adoracat)

Post #: 9

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 12:44:28 PM

GhitaAmati

Posts: 3263
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline

Im not really a brat...more of a smart ass....and there are times people see my personality as being over the top bratty...but the truth is Im not doing it for attention or to get a beating..if I want a beating I tell Sir I want a beating...If I make a smart assed coment, he generally just laughs cause that was my whole reason behind making the smart assed comment..if we cant laugh at ourselves, who can we laugh at? If Sir hit me everytime I made a joke, Id probably stop making jokes, and then I wouldt be myself and he'd get tired of me because he loves me for who I am now, smart assed comments and all.

Not to say I dont understand there are times its best to be a bit more serious though....

_____________________________

I said I was a submissive, I never said I was a GOOD submissive.

Sex without love is a meaningless experience, but as far as meaningless experiences go its pretty damn good.
~Woody Allen

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 10

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 12:54:13 PM

slaveish

Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline

Bratting can be a screech for attention; thus, remove the attention and squelch the bratting.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to GhitaAmati)

Post #: 11

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 1:40:50 PM

MaamJay

Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline

I don't like brats, I don't want a relationship with one, been there, done that and it was painful. I don't mind a great sense of humour and a bit of cheekiness as long as they will pull back the instant they see they are getting close to going over "My line". This means they have to be attentive and not just thinking of themselves. I want one who is willingly obedient and stricken with remorse if they do goof up, especially if there was deliberate disobedience involved. And along with the remorse has to come the learning capacity to avoid similar mistakes in the future and the willingness to work at that. My relationship with brats in future? Just won't get started. Having recently found a sub with great potential, this shouldn't be an issue YAY!

I never punish with impact play as I choose to use that as "PLAY" ie reward/fun/fulfillment etc. Even with someone who didn't particularly enjoy pain, I would still not use it as punishment as that would in effect punish Me for enjoying the delivery of it and spoil My delight in a sub that was willing to surrender to it in obedience. I try to make the punishment fit the crime and make it something they REALLY don't like. I start small and escalate if the bad behaviour escalates. For eg, My new fem sub is unaccustomed to wearing skirts. I want her to wear skirts, so while she was visiting here I had her wear them. Now she is away from Me again, I clearly set out the rule that she was to wear one during the day till a certain hour. she broke that rule by changing an hour early. Given that she is new etc My punishment was light ... for the next 2 days she is to wear a skirt for an hour past the original time. In other words, I've "seen her hour and raised her one" to borrow from poker. Simple, appropriate ... and hopefully effective! (Actually I rather suspect the feeling of embarrassment that will hit if she spots this post will be even more effective

). Should she be silly enough to break the rule again, the punishment would escalate, in that she might be required to wear the skirt for extra time every day for a week and report in by webcam throughout the day to prove it. she doesn't want to be treated like a child and I don't want to treat her that way so I doubt that will be necessary ... but knowing I could do that is a reasonable "threat".

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to slaveish)

Post #: 12

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 1:50:13 PM

earthycouple

Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

In the case of the "bratty" sub, as I understand it, bad behaviour is rewarded with a beating (which is what they crave, as I understand it). What makes you think that being bratty or anything else is rewarded with beatings? What if beatings aren't a reward for someone? What if someone HATES beatings? Sounds like "punishment" to me. I'd also like to know why you think that some people don't LOVE bratty behavior? Why can't I like fire and spice in my sub? And if I do...I'd sure as hell "reward" it.

Does that not encourage -more- bad behaviour?

(O.o)

And since, for the purpose of this discussion, "bad behaviour" might best be defined as "irritating" (okay, maybe I'm being charitable ;-), isn't the reward actually -encouraging- the "brat" to "irritate" the one who does the beating on an on-going basis? People who don't like what their sub is doing correct that behavior. They don't encourage it. YOU, OP are presuming every human being loves to be "beaten". Many many subs don't like spankings or beating or whatever. And OP, many many dominants do not "punish" no matter what someone does. Punishment is not for adults as far as I'm concerned.

(o.O)

Does anyone have any idea what the average life-span of a relationship with a "brat" might be? What?

(O.O)

< Message edited by earthycouple -- 8/3/2007 1:56:34 PM >

_____________________________

D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 13

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 2:10:25 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

In the case of the "bratty" sub, as I understand it, bad behaviour is rewarded with a beating (which is what they crave, as I understand it).

Does that not encourage -more- bad behaviour?

Only if they like beatings. Not every sub does, you know.

quote:

And since, for the purpose of this discussion, "bad behaviour" might best be defined as "irritating" (okay, maybe I'm being charitable ;-), isn't the reward actually -encouraging- the "brat" to "irritate" the one who does the beating on an on-going basis?

Again, only if they enjoy it. My owner never punishes with spankings because I do enjoy them. I have to write essays.

quote:

Does anyone have any idea what the average life-span of a relationship with a "brat" might be?

Yet again, it depends. Some of the things that I do others find bratty. However, they only endear me further to Valyraen. One person's brat is another person's delight. You'd have to get into more specific behavior to get more specific answers.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 14

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 2:57:20 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

You're assuming that the Dominant actually wants to discourage that "bad" behavior (an assessment that is exceptionally relative to the individual). If that were the case, then rewarding it would indeed be counterproductive.

However, it has been my observation and experience that most of the Dominants that end up with "bratty" submissives (or whatever similar term you'd like to use) do so for a reason. They actually enjoy that behavior, and are engaged in a mutual role play that is mutually gratifying.

Whatever floats yer boat.

John

Exactly!!

A Dom that doesnt want a brat and has a brat will most likely not hold on to said brat for to long. so no the relationship wouldnt last, but not because of anything other then incompatability.

ms

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 15

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 2:59:44 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

In the case of the "bratty" sub, as I understand it, bad behaviour is rewarded with a beating (which is what they crave, as I understand it).

Does that not encourage -more- bad behaviour?

Only if they like beatings. Not every sub does, you know.

quote:

And since, for the purpose of this discussion, "bad behaviour" might best be defined as "irritating" (okay, maybe I'm being charitable ;-), isn't the reward actually -encouraging- the "brat" to "irritate" the one who does the beating on an on-going basis?

Again, only if they enjoy it. My owner never punishes with spankings because I do enjoy them. I have to write essays.

quote:

Does anyone have any idea what the average life-span of a relationship with a "brat" might be?

Yet again, it depends. Some of the things that I do others find bratty. However, they only endear me further to Valyraen. One person's brat is another person's delight. You'd have to get into more specific behavior to get more specific answers.

Bingo, there are behaviors that both Dom and sub have that not all Doms and subs like and there for they do not seek out those with those perticular atributes. Im very opinionated so a Dom that doesnt seek an opinionated sub would not be happy with me, and indeed I would not be happy with them.

ms

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 16

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/3/2007 8:53:15 PM

Joseff

Posts: 505
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline

Very simply, punishment should not be enjoyed by the 'punishee'. If it is, its not punishment.
Joseff

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 17

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/4/2007 5:40:14 AM

lateralist1

Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

Know thyself, know thy sub, and agree on discipline if required in the relationship. Consensuality in all things. I don't want to treat a sub as a child but if that is the subs need I have a choice live with it, and hope it changes. Or walk away.
Relationships have to fulfil both people's needs or eventually they will break down or just become a bad habit . Of course that's only a theory until I find a sub.

(in reply to Joseff)

Post #: 18

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/4/2007 5:52:20 AM

came4U

Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline

I tend to agree with Rover.

A dominant might choose that type of submissive, maybe he thinks he can stop/change her overnight, or deep down not want much of a drastic change.

Yet, I am starting to think that maybe bratty types are just at a loss of essential communication skills (as far as being intimate is concerned) and maybe the 'bratness' comes out as a means to imply 'hey hey, MAKE me love you, MAKE me show respect' etc.??

And the couple that engages in such banter (fun to them) ends up with a sub that is 'temporarily relieved or secure enough to be intimate' for a while, until her confusion begins again.

Would then the brattiness disolve or become more frequent???

just wondering.

(in reply to lateralist1)

Post #: 19

RE: Rewarding bad behaviour? (o.O) - 8/4/2007 5:53:35 AM

came4U

Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline

sorry, I meant Would then the brattiness disolve and become less frequent???

(in reply to came4U)

Post #: 20

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