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RE: Twue Punishment - 8/5/2007 6:49:05 AM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		do i wish the 2 16 year old maggots that killed my aunt had been put to death? yes, and most days i believe i could pull the trigger and still sleep like a baby.....

do i want an innocent person to die because they were wrongly convicted? of course not....

is this subject something that anyones ever going to change their mind on? i have 50 cents that says nope......this, and abortion, are 2 things i have learned that it is impossible to debate-and unnecessary in most instances.  stances on these subjects come from so deep within the gut and soul, and i dont know who is right, but i know we all have deep convictions for how we feel.

there is no right/wrong/good/bad to this......its just how we feel because of who we are deep down........

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it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Twue Punishment - 8/5/2007 6:54:59 AM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50

why wait til they take the stand? 


So, we take them out before hand. And we could use machetes, save on bullets? Maybe go back to the gladiator days ("Joey, do you like movies about gladiators?")...... charge admission, and use the money raised to boost congress' salaries...... we're on to something, now......


watch "a time to kill"........old samuel got it right in that one

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Twue Punishment - 8/5/2007 6:56:45 AM   
MsLadySue


Posts: 2254
Joined: 12/18/2004
Status: offline 		I have another point of view on this subject. Instead of putting child molesters and rapists in isolation, put them in with the general population. The prisoners themselves will deal appropriately with these criminals. The death penalty will occur without the tax payers funding it.

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I love it when someone insults me. That means I don't have to be nice anymore.

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RE: Twue Punishment - 8/5/2007 7:28:44 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsBearlee

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftKajira

And to think, even after all the "sarcastic, I'm oh so clever" comments I still support the death penalty *gasp*..  I guess you guys will have to go back to the drawing board, you apparently haven't worked hard enough to show me the Right and only way to think huh?, because of course everyone has to think like you, or the world will end  


Ya know, you're new here and have posted a total of 26 times so far.  You do not 'know' the personalities involved nor, apparently, do you pay attention to how they write.  Your being rude will get you nowhere, why not just slow down a bit and get to know us?  Level is as kind and gentle a participant as there is...and I'm quite sure he was not baiting you.  Go back and re-read the posts, girlie...and if you're half the adult you should be, you can apologize to him then!
 
B


Thank you for the kind words, Beverly
 
I'll just say this: if my teasing posts (meant to make a point, but be funny, as well) were seen as rude to SoftKajira, then she has my apologies.
 
As I've said, I do understand why people support the death penalty, so hopefully, I'm not someone she sees as having to be right.
 
Even when I am.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to MsBearlee)
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RE: Twue Punishment - 8/5/2007 7:39:51 AM   
MsBearlee


Posts: 1032
Joined: 2/15/2006
Status: offline 		 
LMAO  ...you're a good man Charlie Brown.
 
 
Sir!
 
 
B

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This one, as well!

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Twue Punishment - 8/5/2007 8:30:42 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsBearlee

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftKajira

And to think, even after all the "sarcastic, I'm oh so clever" comments I still support the death penalty *gasp*..  I guess you guys will have to go back to the drawing board, you apparently haven't worked hard enough to show me the Right and only way to think huh?, because of course everyone has to think like you, or the world will end  


Ya know, you're new here and have posted a total of 26 times so far.  You do not 'know' the personalities involved nor, apparently, do you pay attention to how they write.  Your being rude will get you nowhere, why not just slow down a bit and get to know us?  Level is as kind and gentle a participant as there is...and I'm quite sure he was not baiting you.  Go back and re-read the posts, girlie...and if you're half the adult you should be, you can apologize to him then!
 
B


Thanx B,that one needed a spanking.

A side note.
I`m going to say my peace weather it makes me look good or bad,dumb or clever.I don`t craft my thoughts to fit in or make friends.

My purpose for posting and replying is to answer back and pose questions.It`s not to convince someone to think different.I like to challenge myths,and stereotype and  share insights.I also try to learn about subjects,as well as hold my ground.
I think most people feel this way.

I don`t think anyone is trying to change minds(on message boards).We all have our world view.A guy who has anything riding on convincing people to think different , is not going to be happy.

Giving your best argument and countering points are you can hope for.For me,stirring the pot means to not lets people off the hook,by allowing them repeat myths ,or to be ignorant of  facts.I don`t let people get away with that.

For example:

There are a few hot heads here, who have no problem letting a few innocent guys die,to satisfy their blood lust for revenge and punishment.It`s a price "they`ll pay"(said sarcastically),to have the death penalty.

Most who feel this way figure they don`t have to worry about being falsely accused.What are the chances of that happening?One in a million,none to zero?

Anyone who doesn`t think they could be falsely accused and railroaded of a crime,think about the Duke University kids.They were lucky.Many falsely accused people don`t get a break.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/719.php


This man was accused of rape and murder,and though he didn`t do it and never had knowledge of the crimes,he payed for them and came w/ in weeks of being executed.He saw every word he said twisted against him,police who wouldn`t search for other suspects,and the hell hole of prison,all while being railroaded.

Another downside of this(the death penalty) is the real criminal getting away w/ the crimes only to commit more.The problem in this guys case wasn`t your average mistake or bumble.A racist and lazy police force, allowed this guy to languish in jail,while the rapist/killer continued to kill and maim.This is pretty common in America.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now,...I have nothing invested in convincing people to think like me.If I change a mind or two,big whoop.If I`ve challenged someone to think about a subject or consider a point,I`m happy.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/5/2007 8:40:31 AM >

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(in reply to MsBearlee)
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RE: Twue Punishment - 8/5/2007 10:46:49 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		i don't believe in the death penalty, for many reasons i won't go into here.  i also don't think corporal punishment is the answer either.  If someone is of a criminal mind (a sociopath) beating them will not deter them.  i don't think spanking children works either - you just make them resentful and sneakier.  Children learn by example, by and large.  The only people who should be corporally punished are the ones who like it  and consent to it.

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Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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RE: Twue Punishment - 8/5/2007 11:09:20 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		 
The problem I see with parents who use corporal punishment on their children is it generally reflects an inability on their part to truly control their children from a young age.

The child whines, gets rewarded

The child is lovely and polite, gets ignored.

The child acts up, is punished.

The child wishes attention and feedback, and negative feedback is far better than no feedback.

My children are wonderful and well behaved and have turned in to positively lovely individuals.  I never once used corporal punishment on them.

One gets out of something commensurate with what one puts into something.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Twue Punishment - 8/7/2007 6:20:36 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		This is a quick response and not directed at anyone.
I watched the caining video and at the end it showed the constable inspecting the "recovery room".
I noticed that the recovery room was full and this caining business seems to be a regular thing.  This in and of itself should be conclusive proof that corporal punishment does not work.  If it did work then there would be no full recovery rooms and no regular caining sessions.  (Except for those who enjoy it)
I have a few friends from Singapore...they tell me it is a "fine city....they fine you for this and they fine you for that"  It is against the law to chew or posses gum.  I think those who feel that life in Singapore is a kewel thing ought to go live there and find out for themselves just how much fun it is to live in a police state.
thompson

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Twue Punishment - 8/7/2007 6:22:39 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i don't believe in the death penalty, for many reasons i won't go into here.  i also don't think corporal punishment is the answer either.  If someone is of a criminal mind (a sociopath) beating them will not deter them.  i don't think spanking children works either - you just make them resentful and sneakier.  Children learn by example, by and large.  The only people who should be corporally punished are the ones who like it  and consent to it.


Clap clap clap clap clap.

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RE: Twue Punishment - 8/7/2007 7:05:51 PM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Sometimes it seems that people in general have a lot of misconceptions about prison.  I work in one every day and can tell you that they have little resemblence to what you see on TV.  Can they be dangerous? Yes but so can sitting in your own home these days. 

The state is careful to protect those same people you think are going to end up dead once they get to prison.  Why? Because no matter how little their family cares about them let them get seriously injured or die and here comes the lawsuit.  Do they separate out child molesters etc and put them in safer surroundings?  Yes a lot of times they do.  Prisons tend to separate out the seriously mentally ill, the very young, the mentally retarded, the disabled, and people who are considered vulnerable in general. 

The focus of prison anymore is not just locking them up and throwing away the key.  Its realizing that the vast majority will serve a few years and get out.  Its helping them be ready for getting out so that they have a chance out there in the free world.  Its also about realizing that any one of us could end up living next door to an ex con-and thinking about what we want living next door to us. 

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Twue Punishment - 8/7/2007 7:28:13 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		I am one of those who believes the death penalty is inherently wrong even though I can make a convincing analogy of killing a rabid animal to end the suffering of said animal and also to protect society.

However, there has been some discussion of nature vs nurture here.
In my opinion that is a very complex issue.
Siblings born into a family often have completely different perceptions of their environments growing up...  different experiences in school and within their community etc.

It is the synergy of both nature and nurture and the influence of our experience that make us who we are.
My personal belief is that generally nurture tips the scales more often than not.

(in reply to sharainks)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Twue Punishment - 8/7/2007 7:36:02 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		Burn baby Burn i hear them calling Burn baby Burn yep
if someone like jeffery dowmer or Timothy McVey  comse a long you bet your sweet ass Death no question about it
those that kill little kids too Death  do not have problem sleeping with that at all

um hot dogs anyone

(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Twue Punishment - 8/7/2007 8:06:32 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

Burn baby Burn i hear them calling Burn baby Burn yep
if someone like jeffery dowmer or Timothy McVey  comse a long you bet your sweet ass Death no question about it
those that kill little kids too Death  do not have problem sleeping with that at all

um hot dogs anyone


*grumbles as he drinks heavily to get rid of the Disco Inferno earworm*

*hums Its A Small World to exact retribution*

I would say, LATEXBABY64, that if the person was convicted completely beyond a shadow of a doubt, and you had the courage of your convictions to exact the proscribed penalty on said individual, and you agreed to allow yourself to be tried and convicted and put to death for murder, if the person you had put to death was posthumously found innocent, then...

...I would take your opinion for being valid and heartfelt and support it completely.

However, since you are posting on a message board and have no personal stake or responsibility in a job you want other people to do for you, I am not sure how much validity or intrinsic value I am willing to give your opinion. 

Which is pretty much how I feel about any death penalty supporter. 

One innocent person put to death makes the State (you and I and everybody else) guilty of murder.

I am unwilling to murder somebody.

Sinergy

p.s.  An alternate translation of the Commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is "Thou Shalt Not Murder," which has a vastly different meaning.


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Twue Punishment - 8/7/2007 8:09:15 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I've no problem with the use of the death penalty, in circumstances where guilt is clear and obvious.


The only time guilt is clear and obvious, in an absolute sense, is when you see it being done, or about to be done. And in those cases, as far as I know, pretty much every jurisdiction allows a police officer- and in most jurisdictions also civilians- to kill the perpetrator on the spot. If they're about to do it to yourself or those around you, it generally falls under self-defense, which is even more commonly accepted.

Of course, you could be hallucinating, but that'd be a case of (temporary or not) insanity anyway.

quote:


Essentially, I think there are better uses of these men; ironic that we are willing to kill them, but not allow them to voluntarily participate in research studies.


~nod~

At the very least, one should allow them to choose to participate in such studies, and then grant a stay of execution for as long as the study or its aftereffects last. HIV/AIDS and cancer are prime candidates. I'm not talking about WW2-style research, but simply high-risk studies.

quote:


Eye for an eye doesn't work.


You must realize that the point of "an eye for an eye" wasn't that it was an ideal standard of justice. It was just an improvement over what existed prior to that point in that culture, which was to give a greater punishment than the original offense. Moving from "an eye for an insult" to "an eye for an eye" was a great leap forward, and going further with it at that time would have caused it to be rejected. Society was ready for this leap, but not the next leap.

Wind forward tons of years, and the Nazarene appears to admonish the Jews to go beyond the requirements of the Torah, to see that the Torah was just another waypoint along a certain path, and encourage them to follow this path for themselves, without having to be prodded along. In short, to tell them that their faith was not meant to be a stagnant one with literal interpretations, but a living one guided by the spirit of the faith (you could perhaps argue that as being the nature of the Holy Spirit, though I suspect that refers to something else).

Ironically, those who hold the Nazarene as their saviour tend to be more literal than the Jews.

Guess the message got lost in all the politics and church-building.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Twue Punishment - 8/7/2007 8:14:01 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Just a short addition...

One wonders if the death penalty might be replaced by the ages-old practice of isolation. Basically, find an island somewhere, or build one (great way to do artificial biosphere research), and stick those who would be given the death penalty on such an island.

It is basically a way of saying "okay, we won't kill you, but you can't be part of our society anymore, so we're throwing you out, and you're not coming back", something that seems at least slightly more palatable than actually executing anyone, at least to my mind.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Twue Punishment - 8/7/2007 8:27:36 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		Aswad:
"An eye for an eye" does not mean that if you are responsible for the loss of another's eye  that your eye is forfeit...it means (if you do a little research) that you owe the injured person the value of his lost sight.  Taking the offenders eye only makes for two blind men which does society no good.  The purpose of law is for a more harmonious society not revenge.
thompson

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RE: Twue Punishment - 8/7/2007 8:40:59 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Which is basically what I said, thompsonx.

Originally, laws were concerned with revenge, and often exceptionally cruel.
Compensation of equal value was the first message, in the Torah.
Forgiveness was the second message, by the Nazarene.

These represent a progression toward a better approach.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Twue Punishment - 8/8/2007 12:35:13 AM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

I don't understand the belief that the death penalty is uncivilized. To state that if you murder someone you forfeit your right to live, seems to me an affirmation of the value of life. To purposely take a life means you pay the ultimate price.
As for caning, it may deter some from crime, but even jail time presently doesn't prevent many criminals from being repeat offenders.


Here I take issue with the death penalty being the affirmation of the value of life. The murder rate for the United States nationally is 5.8 per 1,000. 38 states have the death penalty on their statutes, the rest do not. In all of the states in which there is no death penalty the murder rate doesn't get any higher than 3.0. However in states which have the death penalty only four states have a murder rate lower than the national average, off the top of my head these include Nevada at 4.3 and Florida at 3.0. In Texas and Virginia, which are the two leading executioners in the Western world, the murder rate is higher than the national average.

I also take issue with the death penalty being the ultimate penalty in the United States. It is far from it. In fact it is the most unfair, arbitrary and capricious element of the whole US criminal justice system. State prosecutors in the 38 states are free to seek the death penalty or not. There are two surefire ways of avoiding the death penalty. The first is to plead guilty as charged, and the second is to have enough money to pay for your own defence. If you contest the charges and plead not guilty you may face the death penalty, especially if you don't have the money for your own defence. However if you plead not guilty, you require a court appointed defense team, and you are black, and have killed a white person, you are almost certain to face the death penalty.

To date since the reintroduction of the death penalty after Furman vs. Georgia in 1976 there have been 1,089 executions across all the 38 states which carry the death penalty, of which 377 have taken place in Texas. Of the 38 states which carry the death penalty 20 of these states have executed less than 15 prisoners. The death penalty is sought disproportionately across all these 38 US states. For example successful prosecutions which have led to the death penalty being imposed in Philadelphia county make up 50% of all death sentences imposed in Pennsylvania and similarly Harris county in Texas, home to 16% of the state population, provides for close to 40% of the death sentences handed down in Texas, which executes three times as many people as the leading per capita executioner in the Western world - Virginia.

Finally there have been some pretty evil sadistic people executed and currently on Death Row - Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy among others. But you know, none of them ever locked their victims up in a room for up to 27 years, telling them they might kill them or they might not, building up their hopes that they might be spared only to finally kill them after so many years. But this is precisely the fate which awaits every person sentenced to death in the United States.

Which, when you stop and think about it, hardly merits the description of 'the ultimate penalty'.


_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


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RE: Twue Punishment - 8/8/2007 1:17:13 AM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline
quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftKajira

What if you kill someone that is innocent? Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet?


of course the innocent argument always comes up. I won't even get into it because of course as a non-believer in the death penalty you will have all your arguments "DNA can be wrong and everything can be wrong and you shouldn't risk it and so on".. I've heard them all, just as I have my own arguments and reasons for supporting it, which I'm sure you have heard before, so i definitely am not getting into.I support the death penalty and will continue to do so.. :-)


Since 1976 some 124 prisoners have been exonerated from Death Row in 25 states.

The following have all been executed DESPITE serious doubts to their guilt:

Carlos De Luna in Texas convicted 1983 executed 1989
Ruben Cantu in Texas convicted 1985 executed 1993
Larry Griffin in Missouri convicted 1981 executed 1995
Joseph O'Dell in Virginia convicted 1986 executed 1997
David Spence in Texas convicted 1984 executed 1997
Leo Jones in Florida convicted 1981 executed 1998
Gary Graham in Texas convicted 1981 executed 2000
Cameron Willingham convicted 1992 executed 2004

This is only the few cases that have managed to become known, there could be others.

It's also worth considering that a moratorium on all executions exist in Illinois (where Governor Ryan has recently cleared the Illinois Death Row specifically because the Illinois justice system cannot guarantee not executing innocent people), in New York and in Florida. A similar moratorium existed until recently in Georgia and they are currently debating whether to introduce a moratorium in Nebraska.

I'd say that in light of the above - especially when you take into account the many years between conviction and execution in the above eight cases - if state prosecutors and juries cannot establish guilt beyond all reasonable doubt then the death penalty to me looks pretty dubious and unreliable.

I mean when you look at it this can hardly be regarded as a reliable form of justice.

Cost effective? Studies in Texas suggest $3.7 million in legal fees alone to execute one prisoner, another in Virginia puts the figure at over $4 million, and this is mainly borne by the state prosecutors, so it's taxpayers' money (court appointed defense team lawyers get a national rate of $11.84 an hour). Then you have the $50 a day it costs to keep a prisoner on Death Row. They claim the average is 12-14 years, but you're getting prisoners being executed after 15-20 years, and if you go for example to the Florida DOC website and look through the Death Row population you'll find plenty who've been on Death Row for more than 25 years.

As for a deterrent - I hardly think so. You've got numerous studies, for example by Professor Richard Berk of the UCLA Department of Statistics, Professor Jerry Fagan of the Columbia Law School, then you have the work of John Donnohue and Justin Wolfers of the Yale Law School, the FBI Uniform Crime Report which states that the police are in most danger in the South which accounts for 80% of all executions, and the police are safer in areas where there is no death penalty.

This makes me wonder what logical and rational arguments there are in favour of the death penalty. Are there any?

< Message edited by stella40 -- 8/8/2007 1:18:38 AM >

_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to SoftKajira)
Profile   Post #: 80
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