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RE: Aaahhh....struggling through loss of independence... - 8/11/2007 3:53:38 PM

MaamJay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: firewillow

Hmmmm...i do feel more like a growler than a barker...

So here is what Master said to me today in an email as i conversed with him on the same subject:

"I think what we are working towards is loyalty and dedication, rather than dependence. girl has chosen to harness her creativity and individuality in the service of the relationship with her Master. Dependence literally interpreted is synonymous with helplessness, whereas girl's skills and talents are a great joy and asset to us as a Master/slave couple. The slave submits to her Master's orders, but her ability to carry them out effectively depends very much on how clever and creative she is."

OK so i see that as a constructive and positive dynamic. i don't think it is generally healthy for most people to become totally dependent as in helpless ... there are 1 or 2 notable exceptions here on collarme though. He is looking for loyalty and dedication and a harnessing of your talents to His benefit, that all sounds good to me.

i agree with Him, but still see the concept of dependence as different from the traditional "helpless" image it tends to paint for many. So yes, i am working on finding my way through the dynamics of this new world and am finding it is digging deeply within me and pulling at my "old ways" of being and shaking them up a LOT; and it feels envigorating and threatening and orgasmic and raw and intellectual all at the same time.

Absolutely expected for a new sub/slave to feel ... if it was all dead easy (a) would it be worth doing? and (b) would it actually involve submission?

i guess, at the heart of my original question, i'm wondering whether others went through personal transformations when they became subs/slaves that changed them from how they were before - beyond the obvious. And especially what their struggles were at first - especially mentally and emotionally.

OK a few specific examples here to show that yes, i have been transformed and yes, i have struggled with this.
i am by nature a leader, Dominance came naturally, yet i knew i had a strong sub side also. Allowing that to emerge hasn't been as easy. It's not been a struggle sexually ... in fact i find sex more pleasurable as a sub than when I am Domme ... as i can just relax and let Him do all the thinking and control it all! It's not been a struggle in bdsm play ... i love receiving and again, letting Him do the thinking and planning, it's a refreshment to me. Where i have struggled a bit is in everyday life. Perhaps the first time it hit me hard was when i was at work with a bunch of friends and was invited to a clothes party in 2 weeks time. i was about to say "Oh yes i'd love to come, i'll be there" when this little voice spoke up in my head and said "Shouldn't you ask Master if you can go?" i did the "fish-opening-mouth thing" for a minute or 2, then regrouped and said "Oh yes i'd love to come but i will need to check to make sure i can make it, i'll definitely let you know". No one batted an eyelid or thought that was odd ... i went home and asked Master, He asked a few questions, put a spend limit on (very wise LOL) and i phoned her and confirmed i would attend. But i spent a few days wondering if i really wanted someone to have this much control over my life. i decided that as i could trust Him to be benificent ... it wasn't really an issue! Only once has He refused to allow me to go somewhere i wanted and then it was for a valid reason, not a whim. i accepted the decision gracefully and it's just a non-issue now.

Much more recently, after 3 years together, W/we moved to a new state and bought a house outright with my money from a previous settlement. There were all sorts of good reasons (financial and otherwise) for the house to go entirely in His name. So that's what W/we did ... but i don't mind saying i had some real discussions with myself (as well as with Him) as to the sanity of this action. But ultimately i thought ... hell, i trust this Man with my life, He has proven true to me through an incredibly stressful time and some difficult medical diagnoses ... what's $300,000?? He also volunteered to have a lawyer draw up a private contract between U/us stating that it was my money and therefore my house, but i came to the point where i didn't want it. In fact, once it was done, i have been totally at peace with it, it was beforehand when the struggle occurred.

And now a lighter one ... it was my birthday and W/we went to the cheesecake shop to buy a bday cake for me. Master said "Choose what you want" ... and created a terrible dilemma! i love all things caramel, don't mind chocolate ... He loves chocolate and is a bit iffy about caramel ... so then i was agonising about whether i wanted to please Him more than i wanted to please myself! It was terrible standing in the shop dithering like an idiot LOL! He was starting to get impatient so i said "Excuse us for a minute please" and asked Him to come out of the shop to talk. i explained the problem and He just looked at me, gave me a HUGE hug and kiss and said "Silly girl, choose the flavour YOU prefer!" i went back in and bought the caramel ... and enjoyed it thoroughly! Recently it was His Bday and the shop circumvented the problem by having an apple crumble one available ... He chose that and W/we both loved it!

One final one ... My Domme side has a new sub who is showing great potential. However, she is having major surgery at the end of this month, and I have said she should come and stay with Us to recuperate as she won't be allowed to bend, stretch, do housework, drive etc for a few weeks. she is grateful yet scared that she is going to be driven nuts because I will be doing things for her instead of the other way around. It can be hard to allow someone else (especially your Dominant) to take care of you instead of you carrying the entire burden of taking care of yourself. As I said to My sub ... you get great joy out of giving to others, would you deny them the experience of that joy? I think not!

Good luck with your struggles ... relish them even as they are signs of personal growth.

violet[A] aka Maam Jay (violet had more to say this time LOL!)

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RE: Aaahhh....struggling through loss of independence... - 8/12/2007 9:59:13 AM

BDsbabygirl

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This was all great reading and I am so happy for the post. I too still struggle with the giving up of control in day-to-day things...

During my last marriage (we're still legally bound), my husband was a drug addict, leaving it to me to take care of everthing. So all the utilities are in my name, I purchased everything, and made most decisions. He actually had the nerve to call me a control freak and to say that I was trying to be the man! My comeback - "Well, somebody has to be!"
So you can imagine that after nearly 16 years of that, I am struggling with the idea of giving a lot of that up, hence my resistence to moving in together; on the one hand, I will be so glad to give up the load but on the other I will be terrified since I'm used to being in control -- thank heavens I'll still be working and allowed to keep my own earnings; nothing terrifies me more than the thought of him suddenly dying or something and me being left helpless! - and having stuff done my way. Do I like the idea of having to watch what he wants if he won't let me go to another room to watch my show? No. Do I like having to ask permission to go here or there (hasn't been an issue but I'm afraid it could be)? No. And so on... BUT! Do I like making my Daddy happy and pleasing him? Yes! Do I like doing for Daddy? Yes! Do I trust him in all things including my own safety, security, and basic happiness? Yes, Yes, and Yes! Such a quandary, yes?

Still, I know that I have come a long ways and will continue to do so as we walk this path. Good luck to the OP. I am with you while you walk.

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RE: Aaahhh....struggling through loss of independence... - 8/13/2007 7:32:57 AM

firewillow

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Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou...ALL of you. i wish i had time to respond to everyone's thoughts because there is so much in each of your posts, but i only have internet access during the day at work. This thread has been really helpful to me, as i do not have access to other subs to talk with face-to-face right now either. But soon...onward to Boston! In the meantime i will continue to be honest with myself and Sir, and i will continue to love Him like no other and learn to love myself and the new awakenings i feel every day within this new lifestyle.

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RE: Aaahhh....struggling through loss of independence... - 8/13/2007 7:35:21 AM

ProlificNeeds

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I have the same issue of, not so much loss of independance in areas, but I -worry- too much. It's easy to go "Okay I won't do X, Y or Z without your permisssion/direction" but that doesn't mean it won;t be on my mind. My biggest thing, is finances. I am a financially minded person, and very thrifty, it drives me bonkers not to know where the money goes, or to know it should be going towards something else more practical than spending three hundred dollars for a spur-of-the-moment Cats production.

"Don't worry about it." Is the mantra I use with my dementia-stricken grandmother when she gets into her fits of constantly revolving around one topic of worry. Yet I could not take my own advice when I had someone around who wanted me to stop worrying about it and let him take care of things.

It's the thinking about it part that killed me most of all, not the fact I gave up control of finances, or day planning on my days off, or any such things. I could do it, but it was impossible to stop -thinking- about it. I still have problems with it, when I move from being single and independant, to allowing a partner to control aspects of my daily routine if he desires. Only time and trust seem to negate these issues, and they crop up with every new relationship. I think, for me, the biggest issue is simply trust, it takes a lot of trust for me to believe someone else can run aspects of my life better than I can.

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RE: Aaahhh....struggling through loss of independence... - 8/13/2007 2:13:10 PM

firewillow

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Hmmm...never thought about the trust aspect. i have always been a trusting person in life (rarely burned, so i've been able to hold on to trust instead of losing much of it like many (most?) adults. But you may have hit upon something very important, ProlificNeeds. i know we are debating all of the meanings of independence, but let's say it has a lot to do with being in a relationship and on top of that a BDSM one where a Dom gives orders and will have control over agreed aspects of my life that i usually reign supreme over as an independent being. What if my fear of loss of independence actually has to do with trust? I do seem to go through this to some degree with every new relationship, but this one especially becasue of the added layer of complexity. Can i trust Him with my inner-self? Can i trust that He will make good decisions? Can i trust myself to be true to myself? Do i think this will come together for us with little difficulty? Well, yes. But it unfortunately doesn't nagate the fact that i am questioning these things right now.

i think it is a big job for a sub to give up his or her inner-self to a Dom. To me true Dominance/submission requires this action - letting the Dom inside to understand how best to work with a sub and pull the best and the worst out at just the right times to create experience and learning.

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RE: Aaahhh....struggling through loss of independence... - 8/13/2007 3:06:30 PM

ProlificNeeds

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Well I can safely say I know my difficulty giving up control of certain daily aspects, is a trust thing, because I have been burned. Allowing someone to take away control of bills... only to pick up your phone one day and find it doesn't work and you somehow owe the phone company 800 dollars? Ouch. Not only did the person not pay the bills, they were wrecklessly running up long distance, without a long distance plan to boot. There's a long track record of little things as well, so while I don't hold these past circumstances against anyone, I do find it hard for me to trust on those levels, though it can be done given time and patience.
I developed a stigma of "No one will take care of me, but me." and when I realized I was holding such a belief so closely, I knew it had to change. It's not something one can force over-night, and I'll never be as quick to trust when it comes to some things, but that's not necessarily bad either. It's simply a matter of squaring yourself up and ignoring all the 'other times' and look at the individual you're with. Does s/he want you to be well taken care of, does s/he already make an effort to ensure you are happy and getting what you both need, and want? (IE does s/he help you car shop, or price shop for expensive things. Does s/he suggest names of 'people s/he knows' to help you out?) Those are key signals to me, they're already actively helping my daily routines, and trying to look after me. Focusing on those kinds of things can really help to alleviate fears of giving up those independant habits and routines.

((Blah blah edited for typos.)

< Message edited by ProlificNeeds -- 8/13/2007 3:09:21 PM >

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RE: Aaahhh....struggling through loss of independence... - 8/14/2007 6:09:53 AM

goodpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Dogs are easy to tame, some of us prefer lions.

That's funny. Michael. My personality tests out to be a "Lioness".
I'm extremely independent and tend to be in control. Master is one of the few people that I've met that has a stronger personality than mine, which inspires submission.
*snip*.

Interesting thread and don't mean to hijack it but wanted to comment on this thought of independent (and tameing the lion).

i, like you OsideGirl, am quite the lion personality. It is not a taming process at all. Captain, like Michael, also perfers the lion. Captain told me his job was not to tame or control, but to focus and direct the talents, skills and energy i bring into the relationship. I also like your use of inspire.

To the OP, there are changes that are made which seem to be giving up independence but perhaps they are more about including someone else for the first time. It helps me to understand the logic behind protocols and requirements. (Sometime it is just a matter of obeying but understanding does help.)

For example: asking permission to use the bathroom Is that just being dependent on him? for us it is more letting the Captain know when i am going to be busy for a while and not able to drop everything to go when he calls. By asking permission it gives him the opportunity to tell me if there was something he needed done to before i have a few minutes to myself and unavailable.

one of my points in my Slave's Code Of Ethics says:
3- Every act is an act of service in the M/s and is to further the quality in the relationship.

When there is any doubt of an action the slave should ask herself if it would help increase the quality in the relationship. Is the action ethical, honorable, and honest? Every act, no matter how small or mundane, either enhances the relationship or hinders it, each moment and each act needs to done knowing it will have a cumulative effect.

i keep this in mind when i wonder why i am doing something. Keeping him imformed of where i am and what i am doing helps to establish the power exchage, allows me to be available to serve even from a distance, and allows him to not have to wonder or worry.

Just my personal thoughts on this, your milage may vary.
~ann

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RE: Aaahhh....struggling through loss of independence... - 8/14/2007 7:19:53 AM

Mercnbeth

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firewillow,
You joined CM recently so its safe to assume your profile reflects accurate information. You only recently met your Master and are not living with him. This is your first experience with the BDSM, D/s dynamic. You identify as a sub, but have a mental image of slave and expressed a desire to be a slave as well as a wife to this man. That's an ambitious agenda under the circumstances. I hope you appreciate that many hurdles lie in your path. I'd suggest you need to retain some of that independent nature you have until you have more answers than questions regarding the relationship you contemplate.

One place to start is to make sure you and your Master are working with the same definitions. For instance, it doesn't matter how, or if, anyone else in the world defines or distinguishes 'sub' and 'slave' but you and your Master know what the other is talking about when you use these labels within your dynamic. What is your relationship? How do you define "ideal" and is it compatible with him? What compromises are minor and what are major? How 'naked' have you been with each other to know when a compromise is occurring? These answers are all reached independently. It becomes a relationship when the independence you had is replaced on a dependence not to your Master but to the relationship. In fact, he has, or should have the same dependence.

Serving and independence are not in diametric opposition. Neither is Dominance and serving. Knowledge and confidence in who you are and what you want are the cornerstones of both the slave and the Master. Neither is independent of the other and neither serves or is served by anything else but the combined entity - the relationship. You have a whole lot of "I want..." in your OP. Independently, you both need to sort out the details of your "I wants" until most if not all can begin with "We want..."

Good luck!

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RE: Aaahhh....struggling through loss of independence... - 8/14/2007 6:48:33 PM

MaamJay

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Some great additional posts here ... I would add that you should only yield control over something when you honestly feel you can trust the other with that control. I was in no hurry to give up financial control AND Master was in no hurry to take it either ... and it's not a matter of not knowing where the money goes, that is continually discussed. It's now that Master has the final say once He has heard my view and i trust in His decision-making skills as well as His motivations to build a sound future for U/us both. I think it's important for you both to journey into this slowly, a good Dom won't demand total control all at once, He will recognise that He needs to prove Himself to be trustworthy just as you need to prove yourself worthy of His trust.

I liked the spin goodpet put on things like the bathroom permission, yes it does also mean including Him and giving Him the chance to direct you otherwise. In my case it has another fantastic spin-off ... i'm of the age where bladder control was getting to be a real problem and i didn't really want to be wearing incontinence knickers for the rest of my life! Well, Master now has better control over my bladder than i do ... and has He routinely has me wearing skirts and no underwear i am immensely pleased about this. He can whisper "No peeing until you are sitting on the toilet and count to 3" in my ear at the mall and i go from being desperate and wanting to hop cross-legged to being able to walk entirely naturally to the toilets and not pee until i've counted to 3! It's AWESOME! (He did have to change it from "No peeing until you get to the toilet" thanks to one very embarrassing mistake LOL). So it can be good to embrace His control ... you've no idea when and how it could come in very handy.

And Mercnbeth, as usual, speak with great wisdom when they suggest you and He must make sure you are on the same page first and work out what "We want". All good advice and I hope it all helps the OP a whole lot!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: Aaahhh....struggling through loss of independence... - 8/14/2007 8:31:31 PM

TemptingNviceSub

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To the OP..I see it as..most people like to feel wanted and needed..so view his requirements as simply you pleasing him ...showing him your need of him..As you intimated you are a "caretaker" type...This too can be seen from the perspective of being a "caretaker " as well..show him you want and need him as he wants and needs you....a kind of symbiosis...ach! I am not sure if my thought process is coming across as clear or not...Tempting

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RE: Aaahhh....struggling through loss of independence... - 8/14/2007 9:00:20 PM

Hisbellaluna

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entering into a M/s relationship as a slave requires no more loss of independence than any other relationship or relationship dynamic, it is merely the amount of consideration you must give your partner in order for them to feel safe in their relationship with you...a Dominant can no more go galavanting about leaving their submissive wondering where they are than a submissive can do the same to the Dominant...at least not and keep the relationship homeostatic...if you are naturally an independent person, find someone who cherishes that independence, if you are naturally dependent, find someone who won't take adavantage of it...find a balance either way....
and just in case you haven't heard the top 3 tools for a good relationship today...here they are....communication, communication, and communication

good luck

His bella luna

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RE: Aaahhh....struggling through loss of independence... - 8/15/2007 10:03:52 AM

pleasureforck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BDsbabygirl

This was all great reading and I am so happy for the post. I too still struggle with the giving up of control in day-to-day things...

During my last marriage (we're still legally bound), my husband was a drug addict, leaving it to me to take care of everthing. So all the utilities are in my name, I purchased everything, and made most decisions. He actually had the nerve to call me a control freak and to say that I was trying to be the man! My comeback - "Well, somebody has to be!"
So you can imagine that after nearly 16 years of that, I am struggling with the idea of giving a lot of that up, hence my resistence to moving in together; on the one hand, I will be so glad to give up the load but on the other I will be terrified since I'm used to being in control -- thank heavens I'll still be working and allowed to keep my own earnings; nothing terrifies me more than the thought of him suddenly dying or something and me being left helpless! - and having stuff done my way. Do I like the idea of having to watch what he wants if he won't let me go to another room to watch my show? No. Do I like having to ask permission to go here or there (hasn't been an issue but I'm afraid it could be)? No. And so on... BUT! Do I like making my Daddy happy and pleasing him? Yes! Do I like doing for Daddy? Yes! Do I trust him in all things including my own safety, security, and basic happiness? Yes, Yes, and Yes! Such a quandary, yes?

Still, I know that I have come a long ways and will continue to do so as we walk this path. Good luck to the OP. I am with you while you walk.

I too was in a marriage where I had to do everything and make all the decisions. I hated doing it but someone had to do it. Now it is harder for me to give up control because of it though. As I feel the need to submit more and more there is always that little voice inside me saying "do you really want someone telling you how to live your life?". I think it is a matter of trust. Does it come naturally to me to go to my SO before doing some things, no but do I trust that he will always have my best interests in mind, yes.
We were talking last night about how if he had told me in the beginning I was going to want to submit as much as I am I would have been scared off and thought he was crazy. It has happened little by little as we have grown closer which I think is the best way. I have to be the one asking him to take more control all the time. He won't just take it without knowing its what I truely want. It took me time to understand why he wants it that way but I finally do now. If he just said do things his way and I had no choice I would start feeling like he is controlling too much probably. He wants me giving myself over to him because I want to not because I have to.

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