RE: Draw the Line? (Full Version)

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KiandPhoenix -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/11/2007 12:51:51 AM)

Phoenix has been sick, and has not had much of a chance to check back. I see a lot of good posts here, but I don't think they are addressing what her question actually is.

This is not a question of where do you establish limits, but rather a question for those who claim to have no limits. If you put up no hard limits, or even soft limits, then when do you think it becomes abuse? I see over and over here that when it is not longer consensual, but giving consent as a blanket statement gives the impression that at no point will you ever decide that this is not longer a D/s relationship, but an abusive one. Is that the case?

~Ki



KiandPhoenix -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/11/2007 2:45:51 AM)

Thank you Ki. That is exactly what I was trying to get at.
~Phoenix



came4U -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/11/2007 2:59:56 AM)

Any sort of mental or physical anguish that is meant to cause any pain that is beyond constructive and out of the boundaries of play or any agreed self-improvement strategies.

ie:
you are fat
you are a nothing
THWAK, THUMP, you bore me
SMACK, you are stupid, fetch my   newspaper


  



kyraofMists -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/11/2007 8:02:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KiandPhoenix
This is not a question of where do you establish limits, but rather a question for those who claim to have no limits. If you put up no hard limits, or even soft limits, then when do you think it becomes abuse? I see over and over here that when it is not longer consensual, but giving consent as a blanket statement gives the impression that at no point will you ever decide that this is not longer a D/s relationship, but an abusive one. Is that the case?


I have not imposed any limits on him in our relationship.  That is not to say that I do not have limits though.  He decides what he will or will  not do with me. 

For me, it would become abuse when he violates his moral code of "do my will, harm none".  His vow to not intentionally harm me made it possible for me to be his slave.  Harm is something that would diminish me as a person, make me less than what I was before.

There is also room for harm being done unintentionally.  He is not perfect and will sometimes make mistakes that may result in harm occurring.  However, it is not his intention to harm us.

Knight's Kyra




twistedkytten -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/11/2007 9:44:22 AM)

Each have their own views as to what is or what isn't.. but for me.. i have no limits only trust. i trust that Master will not break it if He cannot fix it.



daddysprop247 -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/11/2007 12:06:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KiandPhoenix

Phoenix has been sick, and has not had much of a chance to check back. I see a lot of good posts here, but I don't think they are addressing what her question actually is.

This is not a question of where do you establish limits, but rather a question for those who claim to have no limits. If you put up no hard limits, or even soft limits, then when do you think it becomes abuse? I see over and over here that when it is not longer consensual, but giving consent as a blanket statement gives the impression that at no point will you ever decide that this is not longer a D/s relationship, but an abusive one. Is that the case?

~Ki


actually, i addressed this is my previous post. in my dynamic with my Master, "abuse" is not a dirty word. the reality is that he abuses me...and we define that simplistically, as intentional harm (not hurt but real harm) done to me physically, mentally or emotionally. because i am his slave, he has every right to abuse me. and because we communicated thoroughly and knew one another well before we became Master and slave, i knew that being his property would entail being abused at times. i accepted that when i agreed to become his slave. a relationship can be D/s (or M/s) AND abusive...and that can be just fine for that particular dynamic.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/11/2007 3:37:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KiandPhoenix

quote:

something that makes me lesser than what I am now


We really like that definiation.

~Phoenix and Ki


I like it as well.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/11/2007 3:48:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247


actually, i addressed this is my previous post. in my dynamic with my Master, "abuse" is not a dirty word. the reality is that he abuses me...and we define that simplistically, as intentional harm (not hurt but real harm) done to me physically, mentally or emotionally. because i am his slave, he has every right to abuse me. and because we communicated thoroughly and knew one another well before we became Master and slave, i knew that being his property would entail being abused at times. i accepted that when i agreed to become his slave. a relationship can be D/s (or M/s) AND abusive...and that can be just fine for that particular dynamic.


You have an interesting definition of "abuse".  I would term what you describe as "use" rather than "abuse", but I do believe we would be describing the same dynamic overall.

It is worth noting, however, that even within what you describe, you do not appear to feel diminished by your treatment at Master's hand.  Regardless of the terms we use to describe the treatment, the fact that you are not torn down by the treatment is what matters most of all.



daddysprop247 -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/11/2007 4:11:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
You have an interesting definition of "abuse".  I would term what you describe as "use" rather than "abuse", but I do believe we would be describing the same dynamic overall.

It is worth noting, however, that even within what you describe, you do not appear to feel diminished by your treatment at Master's hand.  Regardless of the terms we use to describe the treatment, the fact that you are not torn down by the treatment is what matters most of all.



actually, my definition of abuse is not unique. i use basic dictionary and clinical definitions of the term...in which abuse, as relevant to our discussion here, is basically defined in one of two ways. first there is "improper", wrongful use, which cannot apply in a M/s dynamic, as the Master has the right to do whatever he wills. then, there is harmful, injurious treatment. as far as defining "harm", most everyone seems to be in agreement there...some bruises and welts, tears and disappointments, etc., does not qualify as harm. examples of actual harm could be broken bones or permanent physical injuries, psychological breakdowns, constant degradation, etc. imo, these are all things a Master has the right to do (and most of which my own Master has done at some time or other), and it makes him no less a true Master, or even prevents him from being a good Master.



Vampyrefledgling -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/11/2007 4:57:07 PM)

I can't claim to understand the mindset of wanting no say in the matter. I can't claim to understand a Dom/me (or anyone) wanting to beat someone to death. I can't understand hating someone because of his race, or her sexuality. It is beyond my ability to comprehend. There are a lot of things I am unable to understand.

What I can do, is speak for myself. I will not get involved with a man (in my case the Dominant would be a man so I will use that gender) who would ever have a desire to beat me to death, or to scald me with hot water, or otherwise seriously injure me. The trust that must develop in order for me to truly submit doesn't come easily or quickly. I am not an idiot. I have my own mind and opinions, opinions I have no trouble voicing, with whomsoever asks. Whoever ends up as my Dom will be my equal intellectually. I could not respect him and could not submit otherwise.

That having been said, when it comes to submission, I have limits. No knocks against those who like it, but I don't find being urinated on sexual in the least. It just doesn't do anything for me. It is a hard limit. I have others. I would expect my Dom to know them, know me and my past well enough to know what my capacities are, just as he would expect things of me. Having given Him my submission, I have given him permission (hey that rhymed) to do what he will within that frame.

I would consider it abuse when he crosses those boundaries, knowingly and meaning to cause harm, physically, mentally or both. I am a sub who does desire to be cherished and loved. Again, nothing against those who enjoy objectification, it just isn't for me. I wish my submission to go to someone who wants it and wants me.

~Fledgling



celticlord2112 -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/11/2007 6:25:54 PM)

Another dominant male I have conversed with in the past put it this way, in speaking to a submissive:

"You're my toy.  If I break you, I can't play with you."

A succinct  description of the distinction between use and abuse, to my mind.



Vampyrefledgling -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/12/2007 10:07:04 AM)

I believe that anyone who says they have no limits is kidding themselves. Everyone has limits, both mentally and physically. That is just the way it is. Abuse begins when the relationship becomes inherently unequal and one partner takes advantage of that. Abuse begins when the intention is to cause serious harm. Abuse begins when the word 'no' is no longer even an option.

~Fledgling



DrkJourney -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/12/2007 10:26:27 AM)

Haven't read the other posts yet, so hope I am not repeating too much...

Me, personally, from my experience, it's just someone with the "idea" of what the lifestyle is, and just want's to get their foot in the door with "anyone".   They are still in a fantasy world and they do not believe that there will be real pain or that they could get really hurt.  It's like they think it's just play acting, and the paddle or whip doesn't really make contact, the Domme/Dom just brings it close to them, and the sub just pretends the hit to complete the fantasy play. 

I have Domme friend who called a guy's bluff who was talking really big in chat, she invited him over and proceeded to give him what he asked for.  He as a might skiddish when she tied him, but didn't say any thing...when the first lick hit him he was begging for release.  When she released him he just grabbed his things and headed for the door calling her "crazy" , sick, and a psycho....lol   Guess his "no limits" was a might exaggerated.

There is one I talked to, he is on this site, we originally met on yahoo.   He is famous for saying he wants "no choices", I have no limits, you're my Domme, I do whatever you say.   But he balks at every little thing you tell him.  Even something relatively minor, as in how he was to address me.  He even wanted to have his own way about that. 

He had many many other problems, the biggest of which was constantly lying, and blaming me for him lying...but any whooooo...point is....I rarely believe what I read in profiles, that is why I stress good conversation....if they don't want to talk, then I simply move on....and I've noticed that with most of the "no limits' people, you getting to actually know them is not on their dance card.



BeingChewsie -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/12/2007 10:34:03 AM)

Quick reply:

I don't draw lines or place limits on his power. I don't believe I can be abused, there is no wrongful use he can put me too. The fact that I am abused is a definition placed by other people and all I can do is work to protect my owner and myself from their meddling and keep most of what he does to me private.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/12/2007 1:54:27 PM)

I am a believer that a person functions optimally when the human spirit thrives and flourishes, and therefore consider abuse to be abusing that spirit by tearing it down and breaking it.  Breaking ones spirit does not universally occur in the same way for everyone.   I've had my spirit broken before; I don't recommend it. 

However, I also believe it is my Master's right to abuse me (break my spirit) if he so chooses, and if he did, I would receive such treatment from him as I would trust he had his reasons, even if I did not like them.  However, he finds me most pleasurable when I am happy overall, and when my spirit thrives.  He might put me through some excruciating situations that will ultimately develop, strengthen and improve me, and some may consider such situations abusive.  I do not.

But to answer the OP, there is no line for me which differentiates domination and abuse, as it is his right to abuse me in his domination of me (even if he wishes not to).  I do however, define abuse as when ones spirit is being crushed.



Aswad -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/12/2007 7:01:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

1) Done in a fit of anger on the Dominant's part


While I personally would not want to channel a fit of anger into something like this, I don't think it qualifies as abuse, provided the people involved have discussed this. If someone wants to beat up their sub/slave as a way to "vent" or "unwind" after being frustrated by their day at work or whatever, or if they want to do so in anger at their sub/slave, I don't have a problem with it. Unless, that is, it is not something that they have agreed about in advance.

In prop's case, she agreed to give him consent to subject her to anything, so that covers it well enough. For others, there are usually limits of some sort, and for those people, it is something that should be discussed up front, as it is probably a very different experience to be on the receiving end of. Done properly, it can probably have its benefits, whether catharsis or something else, but done improperly, it can degrade into something other than what was agreed on.

If the parties' consent covers such a thing, it's not a problem, IMO. YMMV.



Aswad -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/12/2007 7:05:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KiandPhoenix

If you put up no hard limits, or even soft limits, then when do you think it becomes abuse?


It doesn't.
It is what it is.
As it always was.
Abuse doesn't apply.

quote:


giving consent as a blanket statement gives the impression that at no point will you ever decide that this is not longer a D/s relationship, but an abusive one.


Technically, that just means that the term "abuse" becomes void in that context.

As I said, it is what it is.



Aswad -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/12/2007 7:13:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vampyrefledgling

I believe that anyone who says they have no limits is kidding themselves.


I'm pretty sure both daddysprop and BeingChewsie would disagree with you on that.
For that matter, so would I, though it's a matter of semantics.

It isn't a matter of whether they (the sub/save) have limits, but whether the relationship has limits. All people have limits of various sorts, ranging from laws of physics to mental barriers, some of which are soft, others of which are hard, with most falling on a continuum between the two. However, that does not mean that the relationship needs to entail limits. It is perfectly possible, and indeed acceptable IMO, for a sub/slave to consent to having the dominant/owner disregard personal limits.

We have relationship limits. She has personal limits. There is consent to cross the latter, but not the former.

quote:


Abuse begins when the relationship becomes inherently unequal and one partner takes advantage of that.


This pretty much fits the definition of D/s.

quote:


Abuse begins when the intention is to cause serious harm.


This is something people can consent to accept.

quote:


Abuse begins when the word 'no' is no longer even an option.


This pretty much fits the definition of M/s.

Why would you define these as abusive, or even ascribe the term objective validity?



charlotte12 -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/12/2007 7:28:42 PM)

I agree with ownedgirlie that abuse would be when the person's spirit is being crushed. The problem in my mind with defining it based on consent is that there are many abusive situations in which the person being abused does not choose to leave, not just because they can't but because their spirit has been crushed to the point where they no longer wish to. They are thus consenting to the abusive relationship.

I think in a D/s context the lines will always be fuzzy. I think that is why communication is SO important. I can see a no limits relationship in which the submissive does not always enjoy what is going on still fulfilling the person. It seems to me that it's all about knowing the person you're with and knowing yourself and being able to commicate with your partner. If i was in a no limits relationship and i told my Dom that i was feeling unhappy i would hope he would want to discuss what's going on. I don't believe the submissive has to be happy with every action taken by the Dom (if that is the dynamic they have agreed to) but shouldn't the submissive feel overall happy and fulfilled by the relationship or why choose D/s?

I may not want him to use the crop on a certain day so if he does i may not be enjoying it but the fact that i cannot tell him no leaves me thrilled. Overall i feel like a more complete, happy and healthy person when submitting and if this feeling ever changed i would not be with whoever i was with.

Sorry for the ramble. I cannot seem to say what i mean in a few simple sentances.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Draw the Line? (8/12/2007 7:31:43 PM)

Hi Charlotte,

I thought it was a great "ramble" and I agree with all you said.  :)



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