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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 4:27:32 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I am personally all for some form of obligatory national service - not necessarily in the armed forces.

However there are certain pre-requisites - the first of which is that there is utility in having young people spend a couple of years serving the community; not, as was often the case when we last had conscription, wasting two years of their lives because the forces had nothing for them to do.

The second though, lies in the whole notion of serving the community, the issue being there is no community, no common culture and no nation to serve - and in the absence of this, we would simply be serving the government which in turn serves the business interests upon which parties rely for election funding. In the case of war, we would be sending our children to conscription to die for the profits of some wanker in some boardroom.

The problem with it all I believe, is that we are just far too large as nations to have any idea of who we are as a nation, and/or far too diverse as populations to have any idea of who we are culturally. There is nothing to serve and still less of anything worth fighting for. The only motivating factors I see to crystallise these are common threats from without, which may be real or not, which tend to bring people together and define us much better by what we dont share as by anything we do.

E

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 6:56:19 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
If the letter showed up, would you report?


Yes, I would go. I wouldn't like it (which is putting it mildly), but I would go.
 
It's complete bullshit that guys have to register for the draft, but girls don't. That's completely unfair to the men.

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 7:02:07 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

But in a case like that you wouldn't need a draft. That is sorta the irony of it all. Which is when we are attacked more than enough people are ready to defend the US, it seems we only NEED a draft when the intentions and goal of the war are in question.



Clinton made our military a world class operation by building a stripped down, mechanized, automated, computerized, technologically advance operation.

AnencephalyBoy took this military to the desert and turned it into an occupying force.  Unable to use the vast powers at it's disposal, and reliant on fighting men on the ground.  Now he needs the sort of military that was determined irrelevant to US war strategies after Vietnam.  Lots of men standing around waiting to get shot.

Read up on what happened in Vietnam to see how successful the US was there fighting a shadow insurgency with small arms and bombs.

Sinergy


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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 8:28:09 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic: 

   Do you believe the government has the right to demand life and death sacrifice of the citizens?  To round them up, demand an oath and waiver of civil rights and send them to die?


Yes. It gives me the heebie-jeebies saying that.... and I don't agree with it easily. At all.
 

  
quote:

Do citizens owe an obligation to their country sufficient to set aside their personal lives and opinions and allow themselves to be sent to die?  Even if they don't agree with the war?


I.... don't think so. Am I contridicting myself yet? lol

 
quote:

   If the letter showed up, would you report?


Unless I felt it was immoral, I would. I thank God I never had to.
 
Rich, some excellent, and tough, questions.

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 8:48:05 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Clinton made our military a world class operation by building a stripped down, mechanized, automated, computerized, technologically advance operation.


The US military was mechanized, computerized, and high tech long before Clinton came along. He did however, strip it down to the point that the Navy abandoned tired old traditions like re-supplying at sea in favor of going into foreign ports and doing everything pierside.  Like the USS Cole. 

But all of the 'stripping down' from the previous administration pales in the presence of DADT.

Smooth moves all around.

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 8:50:51 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Clinton made our military a world class operation by building a stripped down, mechanized, automated, computerized, technologically advance operation.


The US military was mechanized, computerized, and high tech long before Clinton came along. He did however, strip it down to the point that the Navy abandoned tired old traditions like re-supplying at sea in favor of going into foreign ports and doing everything pierside.  Like the USS Cole. 

But all of the 'stripping down' from the previous administration pales in the presence of DADT.

Smooth moves all around.



FUBAR.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 9:09:11 AM   
LATEXBABY64


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Status: offline 		let see he cut military spending... He cut our military.. He did not help vets with health care oh yeah clinton is a real  hero alright  NOT

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 9:10:52 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

let see he cut military spending... He cut our military.. He did not help vets with health care oh yeah clinton is a real  hero alright  NOT


So I guess that means you wouldn't serve for Clinton?

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 9:13:34 AM   
LATEXBABY64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

let see he cut military spending... He cut our military.. He did not help vets with health care oh yeah clinton is a real  hero alright  NOT


So I guess that means you wouldn't serve for Clinton?


I Serve the Country and the People not the heads of State..just like they do

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 9:15:07 AM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		You need to loosen the latex....it is apparently cutting off some oxygen to your brain.

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 9:20:03 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
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Status: offline 		Na just live by simple things that make life rock.. gets rid of the chaos really quick that way

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 10:08:06 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

So I guess that means you wouldn't serve for Clinton?



          The oath is to support and defend the US Constitution, DG (at least for us American types).  They don't offer early-outs because you don't like who won the election.

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 10:10:19 AM   
LATEXBABY64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

So I guess that means you wouldn't serve for Clinton?
 


         The oath is to support and defend the US Constitution, DG (at least for us American types).  They don't offer early-outs because you don't like who won the election.


Well Said yep yep

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 10:13:33 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
 It gives me the heebie-jeebies saying that....



        I share your unease with the idea, Level.  Thanks for your reply.

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 10:19:10 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

AnencephalyBoy




          Yeah, we've got that part.  I don't suppose you might try tackling the question in a broader sense?

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 10:23:48 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

So I guess that means you wouldn't serve for Clinton?



        The oath is to support and defend the US Constitution, DG (at least for us American types).  They don't offer early-outs because you don't like who won the election.


Very true....But who does win elections obviously plays a part in what types of "wars" we choose to fight....Depends on the war....as to whether I open the letter or it hits the shredder.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 8/12/2007 10:26:07 AM >

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 10:26:17 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

So I guess that means you wouldn't serve for Clinton?



The oath is to support and defend the US Constitution, DG (at least for us American types). They don't offer early-outs because you don't like who won the election.


What about the duty to ensure that the one who "won the election" remains faithful to the Constitution himself?

If someone receives an order to do something Unconstitutional, say, waterboarding an alleged criminal, what duty do they have to actively resist such orders?

I think the lessons of the Nuremberg Trials shouldn't be forgotten. Soldiers were hanged "for just following orders".

It's not looking to bright when pre-meditated murderers and child-rapists on duty, and wearing our flag, serve 10 years in prison instead of hanging until dead.





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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 10:38:30 AM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		My life is all I have got when it boils right down to it....If you agree to fight than you have to accept the repercussions that come along with fighting...Which could be death or serious injury....No I don't just simply "go" fight when the letter hits my mailbox....Life is far to precious to be trusted to the imbeciles that we manage to put into office.

As Dalton Trumbo would say, it is a deal...Let's make it at least a fair one....tell me exactly what I am fighting for... Tell me what I am risking my life over...I am not willing to lose my life over "words."  I want to know if it is something that I would be willing to die for. It's a trade off, pure and simple. Just don't lie to me.

What would Pat Tillman have to say if we could put words into his mouth?  "Geez, it's so great being dead, shot by my own fucking troops...What a buzzkill!  My death served a purpose. Thank God I made this sacrifice!...,It is way more important than ever seeing my folks and family and loved ones again or fucking my girl."  If your ghost can't say those words than you have made one Hell of a mistake.

There are definitely things worth sacrificing your life over....I would think when it comes to wars one better give it some very serious thought.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 8/12/2007 10:40:59 AM >

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 10:57:07 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Solid post, DG

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 10:59:35 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I would personally round up a Posse to have Bush kidnapped, and permanently banished to Canada.



    Thanks for the reply, Susan.  You make a very good point.  As Americans, we do have a third option.

    Can we summarize the choices for those opposed as:

A) Get over it.

B)  Get out.

C)  Raise (or join) a revolution.

      (just to stay current with my answer, if the recruiters for that revolution sound like some frequent posters here, I'd shoot them on my doorstep)

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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