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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 11:04:39 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

My life is all I have got when it boils right down to it.......

........I would think when it comes to wars one better give it some very serious thought.



That's about the size of it. Assuming a person values life, he/she better take the time to know exactly who/what/why they're fighting, and whose war it is. A few choice quotes from a few choice talking heads means nothing. I've lost count of the number of British and American soldiers I've seen interviewed who have said "I haven't got the first fuckin' clue why we're here". 'Just shows we haven't moved on that much since WW1: young lads didn't know then, also, with the exception of the flag, king, country etc. There's no flag, king, country in a coffin.

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 11:20:47 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		         Not to be snarky, North, but your position here seems out of synch with your more common statements about self-interest and the greater good.  Could you explain a bit?

     

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 11:35:16 AM   
LATEXBABY64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I would personally round up a Posse to have Bush kidnapped, and permanently banished to Canada.



   Thanks for the reply, Susan.  You make a very good point.  As Americans, we do have a third option.

   Can we summarize the choices for those opposed as:

A) Get over it.

B)  Get out.

C)  Raise (or join) a revolution.

     (just to stay current with my answer, if the recruiters for that revolution sound like some frequent posters here, I'd shoot them on my doorstep)


we just have people from other countries come to our country and tell our president off rofl talk about freedom of speach lol

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 11:38:41 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I would personally round up a Posse to have Bush kidnapped, and permanently banished to Canada.
- Susan  


Have you taken into consideration what the Canadians might say about this?

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 11:40:58 AM   
LATEXBABY64


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Status: offline 		did you ever know how other people from other countries are the first to be critical of the US but when it comes to their needing new technology Or some other stuff it is like help help us so n so is picking on me. I think we should really start saying NO 

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 12:07:56 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

        Not to be snarky, North, but your position here seems out of synch with your more common statements about self-interest and the greater good.  Could you explain a bit?

    


Yeah, no problem, can you be a bit more specfic in terms of where you see a contradiction?

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 12:16:58 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

AnencephalyBoy




         Yeah, we've got that part.  I don't suppose you might try tackling the question in a broader sense?


I have actually stated, rather explicitely, my feelings on the matter.

Which part of my proposal to use a variant of Heinlein's ideas over service to the body politic in order to qualify for citizenship, political office holding, and voting rights is confusing to you?

Might want to avoid getting your knickers in a twist over a single word in a post, would aid in your comprehension of the central idea proposed.

Sinergy

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 12:25:53 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     Inspired by yet another thread on the possibility of a restored draft, I'd like to pose a few questions.

   Do you believe the government has the right to demand life and death sacrifice of the citizens?  To round them up, demand an oath and waiver of civil rights and send them to die?

   Do citizens owe an obligation to their country sufficient to set aside their personal lives and opinions and allow themselves to be sent to die?  Even if they don't agree with the war?


    If the letter showed up, would you report?


When I was a young, wild fool.... I gave six years of my life to the United States Marine corps -- So I don't think they'll knock at my door if they re-institute the draft. However, if they somehow change things and make us all eligible again and pick me.....I'd spit in their face and tell them to put the plastic cuffs on.

Absent of standing on the coastal cliffs of Oregon and witnessing--with my own eyes—an armada of Chi-coms or Abdullah’s motoring-in close to our shore, they couldn't get me to risk my life or fight for the US government even if they offered me ten times the typical pay rate of a KBR employee.    

The citizenry of this country has a zero sum debt to this crony-corporate government.












- R








Ranger, I think you're right about that "Corporate" stuff.
We need to extract big business from the anal canal of our government.
When they say "U.S. Interests" they really mean "Big Business Interests."
If I'm going to be fighting for big business then it'd be Blackhawk Industries for $200k per year.
I had a total of 14 years in, 4 Navy and 10 1/2 in the U.S.C.G. and like you it would have to be more "personal" for me to get back into the fray again.
But, if the next President puts out a call for "tdy" Immigration Agents then I'd do something like that.
We did a lot of that in Uncle Sam's Confused Group anyway.

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 12:34:04 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       Not to be snarky, North, but your position here seems out of synch with your more common statements about self-interest and the greater good.  Could you explain a bit?

   


Yeah, no problem, can you be a bit more specfic in terms of where you see a contradiction?



      More a general observation than anything specific, but I'll give it a shot.  I don't feel like hunting up old conversations in the archives, nor do I want to put the words of others into your mouth, so I'll keep it on a broad board and you can narrow it as you see fit.


        Doesn't setting aside our personal interest to achieve a more equitable society play a major role in your ideas about bettering the world?  It seems, in this thread, that you are saying the individual trumps the whole.  I'm just wondering where you draw the line.  What is the difference between a gov't (any gov't) being entitled to demand the fruits of my labor, and simply demanding my labor directly?

       

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 12:42:18 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		Maybe I look at things a bit differently.
 
I would go, but it has nothing to do with duty, or loyalty to country, or service or anything else. I couldn't give a shit about any of that. The bottom line, it that someone has to die in these insane wars, and most wars are insane. That's just the way the world seems to work. If your number comes up, it's just your turn.
 
What's the big deal really. We are all going to die eventually. If there is a happy after life, then you will be in a better place. If we are just food for worms, then you really won't give a fuck about all the things you missed out on.

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 12:49:56 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Might want to avoid getting your knickers in a twist over a single word in a post, would aid in your comprehension of the central idea proposed.

Sinergy



         I don't care for those long waves of quotes in replies.  I thought my choice of snip encapsulated the complete essence of what you had to say.  Hell, that snip would pretty well summarize at least one of those paddles by your name.

       I saw your post on the other thread.  How do you reconcile the Heinlein model of choice with mandatory national service?  (I'll have to go take another look at what, precisely, you said.  Such things matter to some.)

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 1:04:39 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Doesn't setting aside our personal interest to achieve a more equitable society play a major role in your ideas about bettering the world? 



I advocate equal opportunity rather than equal outcome; I don't think that some people get a fair crack of the whip, but even Bertrand Russell couldn't accept altruism as anything more than a fanciful ideal; I have my own self-interest like the next person, but it doesn't extend to wanting a leg-up in life at the expense of someone else. In fact, I think it's in my interests to not get a leg-up: it is character building to achieve off your own back, rather than your parents' money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It seems, in this thread, that you are saying the individual trumps the whole.  I'm just wondering where you draw the line.  What is the difference between a gov't (any gov't) being entitled to demand the fruits of my labor, and simply demanding my labor directly?



Advocating equal opportunity does not contradict valuing the right to say no to the government; in fact, the two are in complete harmony: where is the equal opportunity in being sent to war while the government sit at home smoking cigars and drinking brandy? Furthermore, I'm not quite a pacifist, but I believe that violence is accompanied with a burden of proof, and that burden is very rarely satisfied.

To be honest, Rich, I'm not sure where you're coming from with the labour point, feel free to explain.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 1:08:36 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		       Ok.  Here is something that could cause confusion, from what you said on that other thread

     I have also posted that there should be something required for (a la Heinlein) a person to do to put the body politic ahead of themselves.  Military, road crews, medical experimentation, etc., in order to be granted citizenship.


       I have used the word 'citizen' from the perspective of a present day American to describe the people who live under a system of gov't.  "Citizen" has much different connotations in Heinlein's work, leaving the masses with a choice of which tier of society they wish to occupy.

       I would say the Heinlein model is a rejection of mandatory service, and the right of gov't to demand it.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 1:16:09 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		        I was talking about taxes, North, and thanks for your reply.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 1:25:29 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      I was talking about taxes, North, and thanks for your reply.


I see what you're getting at.

A person's labour is his/her property: I'll pay tax for common benefits (something from which I will benefit, too), but I won't die for something that is not in my interest.

Edited to add: not that dying is ever in a person's interest, best to avoid it all costs.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 8/12/2007 1:26:56 PM >

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 1:58:02 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       It's one of those very grey areas, isn't it?  Permit me another question to look for the line which has to be there in some form.

      At what point does the collective interest become more important than the individual, all the way up to spending lives on battlefields, or, in an example I believe I saw you discussing, sending workers into unsafe mines?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 2:19:37 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      Inspired by yet another thread on the possibility of a restored draft, I'd like to pose a few questions.

    Do you believe the government has the right to demand life and death sacrifice of the citizens?  To round them up, demand an oath and waiver of civil rights and send them to die?

    Do citizens owe an obligation to their country sufficient to set aside their personal lives and opinions and allow themselves to be sent to die?  Even if they don't agree with the war?


     If the letter showed up, would you report?


After dealing with a neighbor whose husband was deployed for 15 months that ended up one night screaming in her yard, because by the time he came back, their house was being foreclosed on due to the the loss of income.  I had to call the police to send out someone to calm her down, because  her bi-polarness had kicked in do to her not taking meds, they sent out a cop who had been deployed to Iraq and upon returning found his marriage in shambles, loss of his house and job.  (He picked up the pieces of his life and trained to become an officer- what he was before I don't know.  I know this as he stopped by the house to tell us the outcome of his call and chatted a spell)
 
Why Rych!  I'm surprised!  I always thought you were in the "What Georgie wants, Georgie gets" camp.  Your post states the possibility anyone going, is going to die. 
 
It's not the dying, it's those that have to live afterward.


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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 2:27:27 PM   
LATEXBABY64


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Status: offline 		everyone forgets in one day on D day more then 4000 us solders lost their lives not to mention British and other allies thats one day we we total number of casualties... i hear from veterans abroad they say this is cake walk compared to what they went through.. there is never a easy way to hold on to the price of freedom but with out it we would not be having this conversation

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 2:48:46 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

At what point does the collective interest become more important than the individual, all the way up to spending lives on battlefields, or, in an example I believe I saw you discussing, sending workers into unsafe mines?


Lincoln answered that at Gettysburg. In under 500 words, he managed to clearly spell out under what conditions it is right for the Republic to mobilize in its defense.

quote:


Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us — that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion — that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain — that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Obligation to Serve? - 8/12/2007 3:17:27 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

everyone forgets in one day on D day more then 4000 us solders lost their lives not to mention British and other allies thats one day we we total number of casualties... i hear from veterans abroad they say this is cake walk compared to what they went through.. there is never a easy way to hold on to the price of freedom but with out it we would not be having this conversation


How far back in time are we willing to go?....There are many more wars where many more were lost in a single day.....That have enabled us to having the conversation that we are today.....4,000 is a drop in the proverbial bucket.

Try to keep on point.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 8/12/2007 3:18:22 PM >

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