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ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
as an aside...you love the mall?! what kinda freak are you???

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ORIGINAL: mmb1

You are very fortunate BoundDragon :)

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ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile

This is an interesting thread.  

Like I said some people are mental masochists, and enjoy being humilated and manipulated.  Some people are hardcode mental sadists as well.  What is right for me or you, may not be right for somebody else.  

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

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ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile

This is an interesting thread.  

Like I said some people are mental masochists, and enjoy being humilated and manipulated.  Some people are hardcode mental sadists as well.  What is right for me or you, may not be right for somebody else.  

First thank you for posting and for your comments. The further question that i would like to pose is based on your last paragraph and the portion that i have highlighted. And that is this: if someone's desire to be humiliated and manipulated came from a sense of not feeling worth any other treatment, would giving such treatment cause a different reaction on your part?

Please understand, i am NOT saying that every one who likes humiliation play feel that way, i know many who like humiliation play and don't feel like they are only worth being treated "badly" ( i am one of those).  But i also know others who crave humiliating and manipulating behavior because they honestly don't feel like they are worth being treated any better and their desire for such behavior stems entirely from a place of insecurity and self loathing. Am just curious how you would view it in that circumstance?

Thank you again for your reply,

heartfelt

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ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile
*snipped for brevity

I'm going to toss a few more thoughts out, with a focus upon those mental masochistic types.  There's a lot more involved besides them not feeling they are worth being treated any better.  I would agree, that for some people (not all) this stems from a place of insecurity and self loathing.   As I already pointed out everybody has an insecurity of some form or another, along with our own self loathings, it's all part of being human. 

Everybody has a special love/hate relationship with themselves.  In terms of relationship dynamics, often we overlook the most important relationship we have.  That's the one we have with ourself.  Some people have a very hateful relationship with themselves, and they desire for others to treat them in the same manner. 

This is very true. i believe on the whole people seek out, whether consciously or not those people who confirm our own view of ourselves.

The thing about expressing Love or Hate, is that it's attention.  That you or somebody cares enough to feel and express love or hate.  So be it hugs, kisses, whips, floggers, humilation, manipulation or good old fashioned fucking.  Yeah, somebody is giving another human being attention.  With that said, manipulation of insecurities is giving somebody attention.  Some people feel very important that another human being is taking the power, energy and time into manipulating them.   After all, they most be worth something in life for somebody to want to manipulate them.  Hence, where part of their sense of self esteem can be found.  That their life means something to another.

i see the point that you are making here, but i can't say that i agree with it for me. Having been the "target" of some very negative attention in my life, i know that not all attention is "good", "healthy" or "productive" in a person's life. i know that some people feel attention, is attention, is attention and as long as someone is validating my existence at all, it is all good. Just don't agree with that sentiment. Attention that later leaves a person feeling worse about him or herself, is not to me, a good form of attention.

With that said, this thread is about the merits of the "manipulation of insecurities".  There are positive and negative manipulation tactics that can be used.  All of us human being manipulate things around us in life, including people.  The word "manipulate" has a somewhat negative cognotation.  Some people pay good money to hire trainer to positively manipulate them into better shape or condition.  Yes, people often need to be pushed by somebody else to make changes in life.  Mind you we can even manipulate ourselves even.   Self manipulation, now there's a concept.  Back to self loathing, some people use this to manipulate themselves into action or change.   Basically, when one gets so pissed off at themselves that they do something about it.   I think everybody can relate to this one.   It's a self relationship dynamic.   People generally don't push themselves if they are comfortable with themselves and they way everything is going.  For some people when they are comfortable life becomes rather boring.  They don't feel alive, but rather going through the day to day motions of being a human drone.


When i started this thread, i might have been one who viewed the term manipulation as always a wrong thing to do, but there have been some excellent posts and examples of using a person's insecurities to strengthen them and i would not make such a statement now.


I'm going to go into the "Pain of being Alive" concept here.  Some people simply want to feel alive.  Some seek out pleasure and some seek out pain.   Hence, this adds a little "Roller Coaster" dynamic to their day to day life.  Some people get off on feeling pain, for some it's more about the sensation following the release of pain.   Interesting topic for another thread.  Is it pain or the release of pain or both that a masochist enjoys most.    In terms of insecurity this generally equals fear.  Fear is a bit of a mental and physical rush.   It gets the body/mind out of a state of indifference.  Think everybody knows about the "Fight or Flight" concept.   This puts a "submissive/slave" in a bit of a tricky situation now does it not?   The sub/slaves naturat instincts are to with "fight" or "take flight", either of which challanges submission if the sub/slave fights or flees from their Dom. 

This is where "negative manipulation" comes into play, the Dom has set up a third choice for the sub/slave and that is to comply with their request.  Generally, the threat of "negative reinforcement" or something "negative" happening has been laid out.  So there are three options "comply, fight or take flight".   When sub/slave complies, submission stays in check.  The sub/slave is released from the fear.  They had their Emotional Rollar Coaster ride or excietment for the day, they felt the rush, and feel alive. They feel human and not numb.  They had attention from their Dom, so they know they are still an important person and have value.   They were made to face their fears for a moment.

Now, here's where it gets tricky.  When somebody faces their own fears enough times, they generally will work past their own fear.  This means, the Dom no longer can use this fear/insecurity to manipulate the sub/slave anymore.  If the sub/slave does not have a great deal of insecurities/fears, sooner or later the Dom runs out of buttons to press.   The relationship becomes boring or not right for either or both people.  

Generally this types of relationships become more intense and are at the risk of becoming abusive.  Because of having to up the level of fear or focus upon the more extreme levels of insecurities. A sub/slave with a great number of insecurities or fears can be toughened up or strengthen by a Dom like this, however once the sub/slave has reached a point.   This is why some many sub/slaves that have been in these type of relationships will say it made them stronger.   They simply grew out of it and changed as a person.  It's not uncommon for people to talk about finding the good from the negative here.

That may be the case for some, that they grow out of the relationship because they have gotten past their insecurities because they realized that they could face them and still survive, But there are also many cases, people i've known who relationships with "negative manipulation" end up in a self-destructive prophecy things, proving to themselves over and over again that they are worthless.

Unless there is some other reason to stay in the relationship, they will up and leave.  Saying, he was such an abusive asshole or something like that.  On the flip side, if the sub/slave stays and the Dom enjoys negative manipulation the Dom may become bored with having a sub/slave they can no longer manipulate.  The honeymoon is over and life become boring.   Basically the RollerCoaster ride is over for one or both parties, life is not what it should be.  If the level of intensity can not be maintained or increased life can become boring, dull and unrewarding.

The sub/slave has grown stronger and is ready to explore a relationship with more positive dynamics to grow, or find somebody that can push them past some other fear or insecurity.   The Dom might be faced with the reality of Positive manipulation and using Positive reinforcement to keep the relationship alive, or finding a different partner to repeat the whole process again with.

If you remove D/s from BDSM what remains is stimulation of sensations, be these emotional or physical, and we want our fix. Some people actually are addicted to this fix.   Personally, BDSM can be like a great painting.  There is a canvas of many pleasures, pains, fears, and things to experience.   I once equated BDSM to being like music, with many styles, tones, tempo's, rythms and moods to explore.   Those that do the same thing over and over again... eventually fall into a rut and it gets old. 

Doms that mainly focus upon negative treatment and reinforcement, or sub/slave that desire only for this... sooner or later will fall into a rut and it gets old. 

Any good radio station DJ knows it takes a good mix of things to keep their audience interested.  Some people have very eclectic tastes and enjoy a wide range of shit.

I'm rather eclectic when it comes to BDSM,  using somebody's insecurity is one of many things I have done, and will do.  I would not make it a common day to day practice with anybody.  Like I said, I'm eclectic.   I'm the type of guy that even finds value and use in micromanagement at times.   Like everything else, it's has it's place and time and use.   Thought I'd mention this one, cause I once jumped in a thread where everybody was bashing it to death, until I made a few positive comments about it.

This has been a very long post.   I've not been making very many posts to the message board lately because I've been too busy laying in bed mindlessly masterbating myself to death thinking about using all the hot sexy subbie slave girls of the world.  He He He..

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Have recently been wondering about insecurities what with the threads that have been posted about them, but i've been wondering about in a different point of view than those threads.

i have "heard" Dominants in the past mention that they would use a submissive's insecurities to keep her in her place. To play on them to make her work harder, longer, and to be constantly striving to "earn" a place with him.

While i agree that some one else can't "make" another person grow and confront the insecurities in his or her life and it is not the Dominant's "responsibility" to do that for His or Her submissive (As i firmly believe that each person must deal with their own inner issues by themselves, not that they can't have encouragement or counseling, but the work that has to be done, has to be done by the person themselves.) However i found the concept of using a person's insecurity and childhood woundness against them highly disturbing and, in my opinion, an example of unethical ownership. But i know i am coming from a place of someone who has had to work to overcome my insecurities and childhood woundness, so i was looking for others' opinions and maybe a different way of looking at it. 

Thank you in advance for your posts,
heartfelt