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A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes for... - 8/12/2007 3:48:51 PM

Nosathro

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From: Orange County, California
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According to an article by Deborah Hastings, The Associated Press, beside the missing 190,000 weapons, the recent Italian weapons deal, etc, The US Military in Iraq faces a problem with private security contractors in Iraq. In the article some 48,000 member, specially equiped security units operate in Iraq without any accountablity or supervision. These security guards are not employed by such companies as Wachenhut but newly formed companies such as "Blackwater" a security company in North Caolina that has an 800 Million Dollar contract with the US and run by a former Navy Seal. Supposedly, these security units members all come from elite units such as SEAL, Special Forces, and Rangers, they are paid per person $1,000.00 per day and are better equiped then the US soldiers.
Commanders in Iraq are complaining that all this undermines moral of the soldiers serving. More importantaly is that since these security units report to no one they have entered military controlled area and attacked the soldiers. This along with rumors of random killing of Iraqis civilians and many are involved in illegal criminal activities. Another such company in Virgina called "Triple Canopy" two former members have claimed that their supervisior amused himself daily by killing a civilian. Another area about these security companies is that in their contract they are immued for any and all laws. The US Justice Department has ignored the complaint about fore mentioned incident as well as other complaints concerning these security units.

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

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RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 4:12:51 PM

domiguy

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Joined: 5/2/2006
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Some interesting links from youtube....
About Blackwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8

Bush on Blackwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Z1tevub9I

Hearings on private contractors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUCSJ1l7WXo&mode=related&search

This is all rather unbelievable....I have never heard of Blackwater prior to today....Am I alone?

_____________________________

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RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 4:24:23 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

I heard abut them a few weeks ago and mentioned them on a recent thread. i was stunned to hear they ( Private security companies ) have more guys there than British do.
It isn`t a new idea using private companies as the Governemnt ( any ) can then deny knowledge of whats happening.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 3

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 4:51:08 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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This is only news to Faux News viewers, us liberals have complained about this from day one. 'Course many of us predicted the whole disaster anyway but why let facts get in the way of a good right wing rant eh?

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 4

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 5:01:39 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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Hi SimplyMicheal.... i knew there were several private contractors in Iraq, what has really suprised me is the scale of it all.

My thanks to Domiguy for the links, i`m glad to see George is as clued up as ever.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 5

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 5:18:43 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

Your tax dollars at work.

Our troops don't have proper equipment, but the Campaign Contributors get PLENTY of business.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 6

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 6:46:41 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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yep a good shadow army for a shadow government.

whats the word? Coup?

and peeps thought i was nuts when i said things will get increasingly more shocking.

Feels great dont it? Arent we proud to be american?

Nuremburg?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 7

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 8:40:43 PM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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More to read about Blackwater:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Blackwater_USA
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060508/scahill

It's not really news though. There was a revealing article about mercenary corporations in Iraq, including Blackwater, as early as the August 12, 2004, issue of The New York Review of Books. (It's not available online.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Some interesting links from youtube....
About Blackwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8

Bush on Blackwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Z1tevub9I

Hearings on private contractors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUCSJ1l7WXo&mode=related&search

This is all rather unbelievable....I have never heard of Blackwater prior to today....Am I alone?

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 8

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 8:51:50 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

I wonder if they hire gays. Would that make it all better, do you think?

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Nosathro)

Post #: 9

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 9:26:52 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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The 1st time I heard about them was after the 4 Blackwater guys were ambushed outside of Fallujah.

I remember Blackwater and an outfit called Custerbattles(not making that up).There are other private mercenary groups there,as well.

The mainstream media doesn`t really cover them or their roll.Just another example of the media giving bush a free pass.Americans can tell you more about Paris Hilton,then can about Blackwater or KBR.

Something noteworthy:

When the four Blackwater guys were killed,the US military did a retaliation on Fallujah,by bombing the city,followed by ground troops.

Which was inappropriate b/c our military`s mission is not to avenge the death of mercenaries.Our troops are not to be used for private purposes,in any way or form.It was wrong to abuse them this way.

During the battle for revenge in Fallujah,a helicopter was shot down.One of the soldiers who died on that chopper,was Cindy Sheehan`s son.Which set that whole chain of events going.
Just a few days a ago,Cindy Sheehan officially announced her run for Nanci Pelosi`s seat.

I wonder if these private militias were what the founding fathers had in mind.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 10

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 9:45:41 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I wonder if these private militias were what the founding fathers had in mind.

No more than they envisioned clueless hecklers who shriek for a federal investigation when a Marine shoots a guerilla fighter who is playing dead.

Agencies like Blackwater seem like a natural development when the first job of the military becomes political correctness for the cameras.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 11

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 10:20:24 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I wonder if these private militias were what the founding fathers had in mind.

No more than they envisioned clueless hecklers who shriek for a federal investigation when a Marine shoots a guerilla fighter who is playing dead.

Agencies like Blackwater seem like a natural development when the first job of the military becomes political correctness for the cameras.

The founding fathers did not envision censorship.They did envision an open flow of info and a free press to deliver it.They did not envision anyone manipulating news,so that the government could avoid clueless hecklers ,clued-in hecklers,or the scrutiny of the American people.

They did not envision this kind of secrecy or military operations that weren`t known to congress.

They did not envision the US using secrete ,private mercenaries,to avoid political embarrassment.They wanted a free press,to keep people honest.No one is to be given a free pass.Their conduct should be known,and should judged by the public and made part of the record,part of history.Only Tyrants need to do things in secrete.

We now see what this secrecy has brought us.The worst foreign policy disaster sense Vietnam.Maybe the worst disaster ever,in American history.

I don`t think this is what the founding fathers had in mind.

A strong,independent,free and open press,was one of the checks on power,the founding fathers envisioned.

A free press, w/ a healthy dose skepticism might have helped us avoid the "foreign entanglement", called Iraq.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/12/2007 10:33:05 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 12

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 10:52:39 PM

EbonyFtshGoddess

Posts: 446
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: Hollywood Hills, CA
Status: offline

when my fiance was fulfilling his sandbox duty (and he's still not out of the woods yet.. 18 more months, hopefully he has fulfilled the # of tours he can do in one enlistment.. but that always changes).. he would tell me stories about Blackwater and Triple Canopy. how their armour was better, they work schedules that don't require them to be there continuously so it would dishearten the soldiers to see them come and go- most oftentimes better equipped than they were and definitely better paid.

i know a lot of guys get out and go straight to mercenary/guns for hire sorta groups after their stint in the military is over because they would oftentimes have to fight alongside of these private contractors, being harmed by the same IEDs, small weapon fire and everything else. they have to run convoys on the same *ied in a dead dog* roads that blackwater does.. they just get paid a fuck of a lot more with vacations.

i know my Daddy wants to go join BW after he gets out and i say HELL NO. but he talks about how much money he can make for such shorts amounts of time compared to being stuck there for a year or more and getting paid like a 1/3 (that's an approximation.)

i think it makes their morale take a shit. especially since they get much more frequent times off. why don't they give our soldiers a raise instead of these no-bid contractors for crazy amounts of money?

also, little do people know.. but BlackWater did defense detail post hurricane katrina to quell violence in new orleans.

and yes they had shoot to kill orders/clearance.

i find that really scary... that PRIVATE security firms (aka.. mercenaries.. let's face it.. that's what they are).. are allowed to patrol american streets and police/shoot american civilians.

really scary.

god don't even get me started on the civilian issues that are being brought up against these organizations because they pretty much don't have to answer to anyone.

*edited to add two BW/Katrina links* so people don't think i just randomly made that up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090702214.html

http://www.alternet.org/katrina/25320/

< Message edited by EbonyFtshGoddess -- 8/12/2007 11:02:32 PM >

_____________________________

One Man's Phobia is Another Man's Fetish

(in reply to Nosathro)

Post #: 13

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 11:17:39 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess

when my fiance was fulfilling his sandbox duty (and he's still not out of the woods yet.. 18 more months, hopefully he has fulfilled the # of tours he can do in one enlistment.. but that always changes).. he would tell me stories about Blackwater and Triple Canopy. how their armour was better, they work schedules that don't require them to be there continuously so it would dishearten the soldiers to see them come and go- most oftentimes better equipped than they were and definitely better paid.

i know a lot of guys get out and go straight to mercenary/guns for hire sorta groups after their stint in the military is over because they would oftentimes have to fight alongside of these private contractors, being harmed by the same IEDs, small weapon fire and everything else. they have to run convoys on the same *ied in a dead dog* roads that blackwater does.. they just get paid a fuck of a lot more with vacations.

i know my Daddy wants to go join BW after he gets out and i say HELL NO. but he talks about how much money he can make for such shorts amounts of time compared to being stuck there for a year or more and getting paid like a 1/3 (that's an approximation.)

i think it makes their morale take a shit. especially since they get much more frequent times off. why don't they give our soldiers a raise instead of these no-bid contractors for crazy amounts of money?

also, little do people know.. but BlackWater did defense detail post hurricane katrina to quell violence in new orleans.

and yes they had shoot to kill orders/clearance.

i find that really scary... that PRIVATE security firms (aka.. mercenaries.. let's face it.. that's what they are).. are allowed to patrol american streets and police/shoot american civilians.

really scary.

god don't even get me started on the civilian issues that are being brought up against these organizations because they pretty much don't have to answer to anyone.

*edited to add two BW/Katrina links* so people don't think i just randomly made that up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090702214.html

http://www.alternet.org/katrina/25320/

Thank him for all of us,for his service.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to EbonyFtshGoddess)

Post #: 14

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 11:36:21 PM

EbonyFtshGoddess

Posts: 446
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: Hollywood Hills, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Bush on Blackwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Z1tevub9

This is all rather unbelievable....I have never heard of Blackwater prior to today....Am I alone?

you aren't alone, in fact, you probably aren't alone on many things that are transpiring in the US yet get NO play, exposure, anything.

i only know because i'm surrounded by marines, SEALS, army soldiers and a slew of LEOs.. and it's nothing new to people that actually question what is going on.

and i'm not saying you aren't questioning.

but once you learn about ONE thing that sometimes people will label as conspiracy theory or just plan absurd.. once someone learns about something.

then they can NO longer cop to plausible deniability.

this link.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Z1tevub9I

the one you posted.. TRULY shows me how ignorant and incapable of eloquently either expressing himself OR fielding a question without an ear piece or a script.

our nation is going in ways few of us really know.

i have a political thread that i would love to introduce here.. but i know it's going to set collarme on fire.. yet it's all documented without the slightest knowledge by most americans except for Texans (currently). and a rather O.K. amount of canadians.

and they didn't know about that either. and blackwater. TRUST me is the tip of the proverbial iceburg.. YET the easiest to prove, document and exhibit.

damn.. imagine the things that one would have to dig a little deeper to find?

but still is still there?

you seem to have an openmind and that stems from intelligence to an agree. you said you never heard about BW before yet you found a video that i had never seen and i've been hip to BW for YEARS.

it's up to us as US citizens to either pull some ostrich shit.. OR.. really attempt to preserve what we feel are fundamental democratic truths.

sadly..

it's not the case. the dissenting voices are lumped with people that are UFO or Chupacabras and BigFoot enthusisasts.

yet you still obviously youtubed BW.

that's an open mind.

don't feel bad you didn't find out how things are sooner. just keep researching and be glad you found out when you did.

and i'm not mad nor ranting at you.... not at all.. in fact quite the absolute opposite- i'm congratulating you on the fact you never heard of something that is pretty much in our face.. YET you took a step to just humour it.

and were like wow.. look what i found. that is NOT conjecture or a lie.

you know.. i think tonight i'm going to pose my question about something that very few in north america is aware of.

sorry for the long post, but if you're truly curious.. and i feel you are.

like they said in the X files.. the truth is out there.

we just gotta turn off that fuckin TV, get out of lindsay lohan or paris' or britney's fucked up lives and worry about our own.

FUCK.. the day the american idol gets ASTOUNDINGLY MORE votes than the president.. SOMETHING IS FUCKING WRONG.

and yes.. a lot of am idols were teenagers.. but the sheey volume that voted for this.. one can not question HOW many legal, voting adults amongst those folks voted?

i really to laud your open mind to things you've never knew..

SO few take the time to be even arsed enough with that.

sadly, i feel we are witnessing the Fall of the American Civilization.

and that will be the title of the thread i intend to start after this one.

-Goddess

(ps.. i'm not going to edit anything so no one feels that i like changed my thought last minute.. you'll just have to contexturally deal with the typos if there are any)

_____________________________

One Man's Phobia is Another Man's Fetish

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 15

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/12/2007 11:51:01 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

According to an article by Deborah Hastings, The Associated Press, beside the missing 190,000 weapons, the recent Italian weapons deal, etc, The US Military in Iraq faces a problem with private security contractors in Iraq. In the article some 48,000 member, specially equiped security units operate in Iraq without any accountablity or supervision. These security guards are not employed by such companies as Wachenhut but newly formed companies such as "Blackwater" a security company in North Caolina that has an 800 Million Dollar contract with the US and run by a former Navy Seal. Supposedly, these security units members all come from elite units such as SEAL, Special Forces, and Rangers, they are paid per person $1,000.00 per day and are better equiped then the US soldiers.
Commanders in Iraq are complaining that all this undermines moral of the soldiers serving. More importantaly is that since these security units report to no one they have entered military controlled area and attacked the soldiers. This along with rumors of random killing of Iraqis civilians and many are involved in illegal criminal activities. Another such company in Virgina called "Triple Canopy" two former members have claimed that their supervisior amused himself daily by killing a civilian. Another area about these security companies is that in their contract they are immued for any and all laws. The US Justice Department has ignored the complaint about fore mentioned incident as well as other complaints concerning these security units.

Whenever I think about the Pentagon's ''competitive privatization schemes'' that surround our military, Machiavelli's-- two greatest works-- The Prince {especially in the discourse} and The Art of War come to mind.

As the father of all modern military doctrine in terms of recruitment and the sociology of military forces, Machiavelli placed a huge emphasis on the fact that he strongly felt that mercenaries are both useless and dangerous.

The whole venal nature of it sucks the morale right out from under your conscripts/volunteers. The whole Blackwater/Dyncorp/Haliburton private contractor aspect of the war has caused irreparable damage to our military and it's ability to recruit new membership.

- R

PS - If there's another natural disaster, like Katrina or a large west coast earthquake, you can pretty much bet your last dollar that it won't be ''officer friendly'' manning our streets.

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to Nosathro)

Post #: 16

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/13/2007 1:45:36 AM

Politesub53

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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Here is a link about the firm that the Pentagon gave the overall security contract to.

Something else not realised is that there have been around 850/1000 deaths of the guys working for these companies. Would the media take more interest if these guys were ordinary soldiers......

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Tim_Spicer

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 17

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/13/2007 3:12:36 AM

EbonyFtshGoddess

Posts: 446
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: Hollywood Hills, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Thank him for all of us,for his service.

he knows we appreciate his service. i tell him daily damn near i could never do it. at the same time, he is sorta like.. hmmmm.. he doesn't really have a lot of regard for human life. he actually likes being over there.

i can't relate to that, but at this point in time that is just what he knows how to do. i'm glad he's in germany right now taking a load off for the next 18 months.

it takes a special person to go over there.

but i also think it takes a special sort of person to be able to go in to a situation where they know they will have to kill.

and want to go back.

i adore my Daddy of course...and once upon a time he felt he was performing a service.
now he just feels like a gun with a pulse. i'm just glad i can be there for him.

_____________________________

One Man's Phobia is Another Man's Fetish

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 18

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/13/2007 3:17:49 AM

EbonyFtshGoddess

Posts: 446
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: Hollywood Hills, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Here is a link about the firm that the Pentagon gave the overall security contract to.

Something else not realised is that there have been around 850/1000 deaths of the guys working for these companies. Would the media take more interest if these guys were ordinary soldiers......

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Tim_Spicer

yes, they are not included in casualities... that would up our death toll by like a thousand realistically by the end of this year.

but why should they be reported in death when they have nearly (probably geneva only) responsibility in life?

they can pretty much run rampant and not respond to anyone.

they are also not supposed to fight along with troops but i can assure you they do.

officially they are there on high level personal protection/convoy detail, but they do a lot more.

_____________________________

One Man's Phobia is Another Man's Fetish

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 19

RE: A Growing problem for the US Military in Iraq comes... - 8/13/2007 5:35:55 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

i find that really scary... that PRIVATE security firms (aka.. mercenaries.. let's face it.. that's what they are).. are allowed to patrol american streets and police/shoot american civilians.

The 'tradition' of using private employees to do an end run around the Constitution goes back a long, long way... private police forces, private jailers, private armies... all proclaimed as exempt from the oversight on public employees.

(in reply to EbonyFtshGoddess)

Post #: 20

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